My So Called Life | 4
Show Notes:
My So Called Life first hit the airwaves on August 25, 1994, and starred Claire Danes, Wilson Cruz, AJ Langer, Jared Leto, just to name a few.
Host Julia Washington and guest Leslie McNabb discuss their affection for the show, how it influenced them, and the relationship of Angela and Jordan, Graham and Patty, and the stages of friendships.
Let's Get Social:
The Show: Pop Culture Makes Me Jealous
The Host: Julia Washington
The Guest: Leslie McNabb
Transcript:
Julia: Hey friends, this is pop culture makes me jealous where we discuss pop culture through the lens of race or gender. And sometimes both. I'm your host, Julia Washington. And on today's show, I'm joined by Leslie McNabb and we're discussing the cult classic. My so-called life.
Julia: This episode of pop culture makes me jealous is brought to you by Modesto reads. It has to reads as a community on Instagram highlighting what people in the city of Modesto, California are reading. If you want book recommendations, or if you live in the city of Modesto, follow Modesto reads and use the.
Julia: Modesto reads my so-called life. Hit the airwaves on August 25th, 1994, and starred Claire Danes, Wilson, Cruz Aja linger, Jared Leto, just to name a few, but before we dive into the summary and discussion, I want to introduce you to my guests. Leslie McNabb is a child of the eighties whose dad once got her button that said raised by television.
Julia: She loves pop culture and getting a glimpse into the lives of others through art and story. Leslie is also the owner of rise with recovery is a leading holistic self-care and relationship recovery coach. While in a relationship with a man who struggled with addiction and then entered recovery. Leslie utilize the wisdom of yoga, holistic wellness, and her own gifts to create calm and resilience in her life and relationship.
Julia: She also hosts the partners of recovery podcast. Welcome to the show, Leslie.
Leslie: Thank you so much for having me. I do a lot of podcast interviews now, and I've been so excited for this one. Awesome. I need to hear that.
Julia: I love what you said about the button and, and how your dad call you the button that said raised by television.
Julia: Can we start a club league?
Leslie: Is this kind of insulting you that.
Julia: Also too. He was so good in the eighties and nineties. So like I'm not mad at it. Right.
Leslie: It was, I mean, my whole social calendar was like, my friends knew don't call Leslie between eight and 10:00 PM because she's always watching something.
Julia: So yeah. I love that. I love that. Which makes you a perfect guest to talk about this week's topic.
Julia: So we're going to do a quick summary for our friends at home who maybe haven't seen the show or that haven't seen it in a while. So friends, I pulled this from ABC's website. So if you hate it, it's not my fault. A story told from the point of view of a 15 year old female high school student, who's an angst written journey through adolescents, friendship, parents, and life teaches her what it means to grow up in 1994.
Julia: Variety had this to say, quote, if she. Being Angela sounds like any 15 year old you've ever known or been that's because the central character in my so-called life feels so real, like many adolescents, she, and, and the series can be off putting at first, but it doesn't take long to develop a deep attachment to her.
Julia: And Pope writing also goes on to describe Claire Danes as subtle and magnetic as Angela mixing gawky, teenage and secure. With an adult's inner strength in 2016 staff writer for the Atlantic, Megan Garber penned an article titled what I learned from rewatching my so-called life as an adult, where she examines how the quality of the show still holds up after all these years, but a paragraph in the article stuck with.
Julia: To be a teenager is to be a simmering mix of arrogance and anxiety and agony and joy, even more crippling. Self-confidence it is. To feel that all the beauty and hurt and knowledge the world has ever known can be summoned and captured through one, look from the person you like. It is even more often to feel that anything that is not a look from the person you like is offensively triple.
Julia: My so-called life was original at the time, a concept that deviated from the traditional high school stories, even though Angela is the center of the show, we see her friends, her parents, even teachers experiencing their own instant anxiety. So we're going to start at the very beginning. Where, what is it about the show that drew you to it?
Leslie: Well, I was 15 in 1994. So speaking of my dad is going to get a lot of shout outs apparently, but he found it. He used to highlight the TV guide that came out the paper TV guide. I miss
Julia: the paper. You guys
Leslie: so much. And then you would highlight different things and pay attention to what was on. And, you know, he would record things on the VHS and, um, saw that this was coming out and just said, Hey, you might want to check this out.
Leslie: And it became something that we all enjoyed watching. Um, and. I just think that first of all, it was only one season long, which is heartbreaking and also awesome at the same time, because it didn't have a chance to like kind of dry up or get sale or whatever. And, um, and also just left us hanging and wanting us, wanting to know more.
Leslie: And, um, so there's that, it's kind of like a little unicorn. It's just, I think the show wasn't afraid to touch on anything that could be coming up in a teenager's life and an adult's life, and even showed some humanness to the, to the teachers, um, you know, from, uh, substance use to sexuality, to like just everything.
Leslie: So I think that that about it was really. Um, kept me coming back for
Julia: more. Yeah, I had forgotten because I rewatched it obviously to prepare for a conversation. Um, I had owned the VHS box at, but not every episode I don't think was on the VHS. I don't know. Maybe they were, I don't remember anyway. And I had forgotten how.
Julia: It felt so honest to have these conversations. Like I'd never, I don't recall a TV show prior to that about teenagers being so honest about being a teenager. I mean, we had movies, like, you know, all of John Hughes Canon sort of went there, but not in the same way because the lead's female and she's actually a teenager and she's genuinely like experiencing these emotions and you just kind of feel like.
Julia: No, one's letting me talk like this, but the show is talking about it. And I also maybe felt that way too, like why? Yeah.
Leslie: Yeah. And the combination of the. So using the fashion, I have the DVD box set. And in that, in the extras are the behind the scenes. They talked about how, um, each of the characters, each of the cast members had a closet, like a wardrobe and they got to kind of mix and match their clothes and like wear what they wanted to wear.
Leslie: And so I feel like. It was more real in that way and that they got to kind of express themselves or kind of define what this character would wear. Um, yeah, I, the conversations for sure, just like. We were not talking about my household, but we're all sitting there watching it together. So it was interesting.
Julia: Yeah, for sure. Um, her little sister, Danielle and I, I think Danielle might be on the show at the time if she was appropriately cast age wise. Um, I think Danielle and I were roughly the same age. So her age gap with her little sister's the same age gap is myself and my sister. And I didn't pick up on that until this time around.
Julia: And I thought, oh my gosh, Y, like, I always thought I was more of an Angela and then watching it this time, it was like, no, I'm 100% of Danielle. And they're all telling me to leave the room. They're all telling me to go away. Like in front of everybody being like me, me, me, me. And everyone's like, no, we're busy with the Angela.
Leslie: No, my heart just breaks for her. Every time I rewatch this. Cause I'm like, you know, her mom is not having. The choices that Angela's making once or to be more, a certain way. And yet there's Danielle, like I'm here. I want to do it like, and they barely pay attention to her. So, yeah.
Julia: Is this something that you rewatch frequently, like, cause you own the box set.
Julia: So do you want to know. You know?
Leslie: Um, well, it's interesting because, so I don't know when the DVDs came out probably like 10 years ago or something, but, um, so I cried when I got that for Christmas gift. I don't know. It's so emotional for me just because it was such a, you know, coming of age time, I think being at that age and feeling, um, I don't know, it's just nostalgic.
Leslie: And so, um, it actually might be one of the main reasons that I connected with. Partner now of six years, because I had that sitting on my shelf and the first time he came over to my house, he went down the basement. It was down there and he came back up and he was like, so I see you have my so-called life on your shelf.
Leslie: And I said, yeah, it's my favorite show of all time. And he's like, no, it's my favorite show of all time. And, you know, he could have totally just been saying that, like, just to connect with me, we were just starting to stay, but we watched it together. He knew he could finish all the lines.
Leslie: Yeah. And he was in college at the time. So that's interesting too, that he's like, I was definitely more, um, Um, emotionally aged as a teenager when I was in college, I could relate to it so much more. But, um, yeah, so not that often, every few years, probably so, you know, tune into it. But, um, Every time I watch it.
Leslie: I just like the depth of each episode. Yeah. I love it. Yes. It
Julia: really, they really weren't scared to go there and, you know, we'll kind of get into it a little bit more, but just, I didn't realize how much of Ricky storyline they really got into. I forgot I had forgotten about that and just how much they really get into the mom and dad relationship.
Julia: Like they were not scared to be like, we're going to show like, Angela is the main character, but we're going to show the world around her too, because that is influencing and informing who she's becoming. And I loved that and I just can't really think of TV shows, network TV anyway, that they don't really do that as much anymore.
Julia: And I just think that's really interesting, like sitcoms kind of 10 extent, but not in the way that they were doing my so-called life. Yeah.
Leslie: Like I said before, it's kind of a unicorn. Standards. It can stand the test of time and it's just, yeah. I don't know if I've ever had that experience with another show.
Leslie: Um, like with this one, yeah.
Julia: In 2008, Jessica ran an article titled consider yourself dumped Jordan Catalino, we're writer, Horton Smith explains why her love and affection for Jordan. Jordan Catalino has dried up at the start of this season. We see Angela grappling with her life. She's relinquished her friendship with Sharon and she's spending more time with Ryanne and Ricky, we also discover she has a crush on Jordan catalog played by Jared Leto.
Julia: And this was to be honest friends like who didn't know her crush on Jordan. We got a lotto.
Leslie: The leaning,
Julia: big blue eyes, holy buckets, the dreamy moody and complicated issue. Boy who intrigued and Angela is the Jordan catalog snow. I used to think Jess Marianna was the start of my affection of dark moody, bad boys, but in rewatching, my soul called life, I was re I was reminded, I remembered being 12 years old and crushing so hard.
Julia: She's not healthy. He, wasn't very smart in school a little bit lazy, but man, when he looked at Angela woo, when he leaned, yes, please. I blame him for wanting someone to look at me like that. And the lean, like the li we just can't talk enough about the lien and it's in other movies and TV shows too, when characters do it and I'm just like, that's a good move.
Julia: Thank you. Bye. In this television reality, he looked at almost every, Nope, that's not what I say, but Angela was so aware of her feelings and emotions. It was poetic at times, all too often, teenagers aren't portrayed with depth. The 1980s brought pack, changed the narrative, but my so-called life truly kept that narrative going.
Julia: Uh, 2007 New York times article titled a teenager in so-called or a teenager in love. So-called had this. Television gives us teenage lust exercised or teenage lust repressed, but rarely does it evoke. Young people translate their carnal urges into something. They understand as a deeper abiding affection throughout this series, Jordan and Angela have this back and forth.
Julia: And I believe it's an episode seven titled why Jordan can't read the two, finally have feelings at the same time throughout the rest of the season, a whole host of things happen between the pair. So I think we should start at the very beginning with. What was, or is your impression of the relationship?
Julia: How, if at all, did Angela and Jordan contribute to your opinions about high school love and relationships in general?
Leslie: Ooh.
Julia: Yeah, they were really bad push and pull and it was like, I forgot how heart stringy it was for Angela until I rewatched. Yeah.
Leslie: I think, you know, at first it's it's hormones, right. It's teenage hormones.
Leslie: And like you said, in that introduction about, or one of those introductions about like a look from anybody else, it's just not important. It's like when you have those, that attraction towards somebody, just forget about everybody, everything else. And you know, it was like started out with this fantasy.
Leslie: But it seemed like she didn't feel that self-worth, that, you know, like he's not going to look at me, that kind of thing. At first it was just like this pure fantasy. He's very dreamy, as you said. And, um, yeah. And then you're kinda like, uh, you know, maybe there's not that much to this guy. Like he, I think that article that you read or you read a quote from.
Leslie: He's just high all the time. That's what it really comes down to like, oh yeah. What it comes down to. Um, but then yeah, that episode where you find out that he can't, or the one before that you, he can't read and you're like, oh my gosh, this like explaining so much more about him. Like he's struggling to be there every day and we never really know what's going on at home.
Leslie: And so you kind of. Go back. And I feel like I went back emotionally, back and forth like, oh, you're too good for him. Don't let him shoot you that way to like, oh yeah, I can understand why your heart is opening up for him. And you're finding out more about him and he's kind of letting you in. Um, but, but yeah, it's a, it's a tricky one.
Leslie: Um, yeah.
Julia: Cause he does. He's, there's an episode where they meet in the boiler room to make out and he doesn't want anybody to know. And like, that feels like that doesn't feel good when you have. When your fantasy finally kind of becomes a reality and you're just like, this is so great. We're making out in the boiler room and we're laughing or having a good time.
Julia: And then you say, I can't tell anybody, like this does not compute, like, what is wrong with me? But it's not her necessarily. It's him. It's his issue. It's his, you know, he's worried about his reputation and he doesn't want, he's not confident in, you know, How they would be perceived together, which is just so sad, because like you said, you kind of go back and forth between the whole lake.
Julia: She's too good for him. And. I dunno that would've made me mad. I would've been like, you don't want people to know that we're hanging out
Leslie: and then, you know, if people haven't watched it yet, I hate to give away all those special moments. So I'm just going to say, like, he does redeem himself at the end of the episode and then you're like, okay, okay.
Leslie: Um, so yeah, it's kind of that push pull of like, oh my gosh, I don't want you to do this. And then. You're a teenager. This is what you got to kind of live and learn and experience this. And yeah, maybe there's not a lot of depth to him, but you know, maybe you're gonna figure out your own preferences and, you know, have your own experiences with them.
Leslie: So I kind of like looking back now, I'm like, yeah, have that experience. Just, you know, be aware that it might not be the forever. Deep love that you're but you're meant for Angela.
Julia: Right? And it's so hard to think that far too, when you're 16, 15, 16, where you're just like, this is, it's just, this is going to last forever.
Julia: Oh my God. I'm so happy. We're going to last forever kind of thing, but you're, you don't always necessarily realize like there's a whole life still waiting to happen for you don't get boxed in, which is, you know, hard for some people, I guess.
Leslie: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I remember I had a crush on somebody. I called him and told dark and handsome in high school and only my best friend knew.
Leslie: And I was like, go, he, he worked at a pizza shop and we would like go and drive and just like, look in there and like, but never go in. But then. Turns out there wasn't that much depth there either. You know, like once I actually had conversations with him, so sometimes things are best left from afar, like admire from afar.
Leslie: But as a teenager, you just get in those, I don't know those hormones and you get attracted to people and.
Julia: That's what it's all about. Yeah. Yeah. Cause her relationship with Brian Krakow, they have like these really great con I mean, they pick her a lot, but he's kind of on the same intellectual playing field as Angela, so they can get into these conversations and it's more than just.
Julia: You know, it's more than just brooding because Brian can express how he feels. And, and what is going on is might also, probably because both of his parents are like therapy, um psycho-analysis or something like that. So of course he's probably been forced into having to have these conversations and be well-developed sort of in that way, but, you know, they do have a little bit more substance when they are speaking to each other, Angela and Brian, and you can see the difference between.
Julia: Her relationship with Brian and her relationship with Jordan, because Jordan's just kind of like that shiny toy, but I don't think she realizes that he's also kind of a shiny toy because again, the hormones play into that too. Like I'm definitely distracted by beautiful men and I'm a grown woman and I'm still.
Julia: Uh, Google and make sure that person is over the age of 21. Like if it's a celebrity on TV or a movie, I'm just like that, person's cute. Let's make sure you're an adult because castings wonky and sometimes low cast, you know? Yeah.
Leslie: Brian, my goodness. Cause he's looking at Angela the way that she's looking at Jordan.
Leslie: So there are all those kinds of dynamics in this too. And Ricky's looking at it. He and Angela actually have like similar tastes and other guys. So like there are all those moments of like both of them being attracted to the same person. But yeah. And she just, and she says to Brian at one point, like, you'll just never understand.
Leslie: You'll never get it. You know, something like that. And we're all like, uh, duh totally gets it. Cause that's who you are to him. Oh yeah.
Julia: And to be like this nerdy type of guide, a watch, like any girl that you have an affection for friendship or romantic to just sort of fall off for this, um, type that, you know, they tell us, I don't know if your parents said this, but you know, we definitely had conversations in our house about like that boy is not going anywhere.
Julia: Her, well, not with me. Starting date in high school. I thought it was stupid. Um, but like, you know, you need somebody who has a good future and like all these things. And Brian Krakauer is that guy he's got all he's eight. He has good grades and he's involved and he does all these things. Jordan's playing in a band and, you know, musicians are a stereotype for a reason for poor portrait.
Leslie: Yeah, I'm laughing too. Cause my, my partner he's, he's a counselor, but he's also a musician, so, um, yeah. Um, oh yeah. You said something there that came to me. Oh, about parents. Yeah, I know I had all those conversations. My dad would just say like, Most guys just want one thing and you know, you know, and now I think we can have this conversation as if like both everybody, girls, guys, people who don't identify as these are guys like it's that kind of time.
Leslie: We're all kind of feeling that they're all kind of feeling that. So, but at that time it was more like the boys only want sex and. Girls, don't talk about
Julia: it. Like, yeah, that's interesting too. How a lot has changed over the last 30 years in that, in that regard as well. Um, with the whole idea that it's only the boys and, and you can see that too in Sharon, how there, she does have, um, a relationship with somebody and she's wanting to explore more, but you can see that sort of repression in her of like, she's not allowed to, she can't publicly talk about it because the reputation of a girl who does such things.
Julia: Even though she's in like what we perceive as a committed relationship in high school. She still has that fear and worry of like, I'm not allowed to want these things or like these things because society or my peers are going to say X about me if they find out,
Leslie: and then you have RaeAnn who is like wanting people to think it's the rumors.
Leslie: Like she wants the rumors to be about her, even though they're not. And, uh, likes that attention and wants people wants to be seen. And we get to see. Behind the scenes, like the FA we get to see her relationship with her mother and kind of that abandonment or neglect in ways of like, wanting to be seen, wanting to be, um, like she doesn't have a relationship with her dad.
Leslie: And so she craves that out. So, um, yeah, I think that's interesting. You see kind of the same issue, but in different perspectives through the character.
Julia: Yeah. The writers did a really good job with that too. I think when I look back on my time watching television from the eighties and nineties, and I'm seeing all these, you know, sort of pro fem things that you didn't realize at the time.
Julia: Revolutionary because you have such little life experience, you don't necessarily remember like the repressive television of the fifties. Um, and when I look back on that, I realized like, oh, a lot of the stuff that I feel about. Equity and equality and, um, you know, just female power comes from some of these shows because they're showing it in a way that had never been seen before.
Julia: But I didn't know. It hadn't been seen before. I just thought that was normal because I'm alive at the same time as the show is existing. But the creators of the show remember a time when these things weren't allowed to be discussed on television.
Leslie: Yeah. And, and even the parents that the roles that they play, so Patty, uh, owns the family business and then Graham, the dad works for her.
Leslie: And so that's a little bit different, uh, stereotypically, especially at that time. Um, and so you can kind of see the. The rules kind of shifting and what the traditional way is and how they might look a little bit different. And this show definitely addresses that
Julia: I do too. And we'll get more into the family dynamics and a little bit.
Julia: Hey friends. Did you know that? I have spoken about representation in media and literature, other than just on the podcast. I've been booked to speak a company meetings, panel discussions, voiceovers for commercials and video narratives and to moderate discussion panels. To learn more about how you can book me for an event, just shoot me an email pop culture makes me jealous@gmail.com.
Julia: You speaking engagement as the subject line, looking forward to working with you. The show is often praised as being one of the first to host an openly gay character. Ricky, as part of the ensemble, not only did he have depth and insight, he portrayed more than a stereotype. He was fleshed out and fully feeling confused about life and how he fit in Ryan and Angela loved him and accepted him.
Julia: And in any TV reflection, docu-series, you will see that Ricky played by Wilson. Cruz is a huge part of that shift that began in the 1990s around gay characters. Earlier I mentioned Angela's. Slash friendship with Sharon. Sharon is Angela's lifelong friend. And in sophomore year, they've grown apart, Angela cider hair, and his dressing differently.
Julia: She's made friends with Brianne and Ricky. The pair could not be more different from Sharon and Brian, but as many reviewers noted since 1994, my so-called life captures the angst and frustrations of teenage hood in the most authentic way. And there's something about being in high school. Restless and wanting to try something different.
Julia: Angela Chase embodies this, navigating her new life while her old one is still very present by the middle of season one. All of these characters are friendly, which enhances the dynamics of the show. So I kind of want to talk about the friendships on the show because that line, that Angela is walking between her old life and her new life is really hard.
Julia: And I think. In my opinion, my so-called life kind of does a really good job at showing you how to tow that line and saying, it's okay to screw up because you're a kid, but do you have like a favorite friendship duo or pair throughout the series? And then tell me a little bit,
Leslie: it's so hard to have a favorite.
Leslie: Well, first of all, I just want to say Ricky is my favorite overall. I love Ryan and Ricky. I bet those were, you know, great, uh, roles to play. Um, but he's just pure love and I love the way how they. He, uh, you know, describes who he is and different scenes and like the whole thing about him feeling comfortable in the girl's bathroom and kind of talking about that.
Leslie: And he says like, um, deep dive into yeah. His life, as you said, but, um, friendship, Dubose. I kinda love how the friendships start to. Happen through like this new connection that Angela has with Ricky and Ray, and then you start to see different pairings throughout the season of like different people together.
Leslie: And eventually you have like Ricky and Brian hanging out and Radian and Sharon hanging out and like these different. I just love seeing how different friendships form more than having a favorite overall. I'm trying to think what, um, I don't know. I mean, I guess I, I feel like Ricky and ran, there's like codependency there.
Leslie: It's like with him having to take care of her and like that sort of thing. I don't know if I could pick a favorite. Do you have a favorite. I,
Julia: you know, I put that down on. I was like, shit, I don't think I can answer that question because you're right about all of the stuff you said about Ricky, like the, just the, what they did for that character on that show, I think is just so freeing for so much of, you know, that era.
Julia: Um, especially because the negative portrayals of gay characters in media prior to that, and it's huge, like. It didn't seem weird to me that he was in the girl's bathroom and then they, and I forgive me if you said this, my internet went out while we were talking, but you know, later they address it in a different episode where he's like, I don't like being in the boys bathroom.
Julia: It doesn't, I'm not comfortable there. And I was just like, yes, like, thank you, um, for giving him the language to be able to say that, but he has to be so grumpy. But I do love, um, I actually, okay. Now that we're talking about, I think I'm going to say Angela and Ricky, because I do love how they sorted through everyone.
Julia: Else's stuff. They sort of always managed to gravitate towards each other. It's almost like they stabilize each other. Like they know they're the stable ones in the group, so they can like stand together and get through everyone else through all the stuff. That's what it felt like to be, especially when Ryan was going through all of her stuff.
Leslie: I like that and they can be themselves around each other. Um, and kind of share, like I said earlier with them having similar love interests, like Ricky's comfortable and telling her that and like standing up for himself. And, um, and yeah, you know, when in the past few years, when there are all these issues about, um, Restrooms and who can go into certain restrooms.
Leslie: I just like first thing that came to mind was like, Ricky needs to be able to go into that restaurant. And like, that was like my reference and definitely formed my lifelong opinions about certain things about certain social justice issues. Um, so yeah, I can get behind that. Yeah.
Julia: And I love how. I, I also love how they, weren't afraid to show his hardships, the couple episodes where he was dealing with homelessness because his family life wasn't stable and just how.
Julia: I got so frustrated with, um, Patty and Graham, because they were very much that old sort of style of life where it's just like, well, we're not his parents. We don't want to get involved. Like he needs to be with his family. Not necessarily realizing that being with his family. Isn't necessarily an option.
Julia: And when that teacher comes in and sort of gives them the speech about like, how could you turn away a kid? And when I think about how I raise my son now, and he talks about friends who might have hard times with, you know, their parents and it's like, well, I don't want to get involved with their drama, but I also don't want them to sleep on the street.
Julia: So tell him to sleep on the couch if they need a place to go. And I didn't realize that. Like, like you said, the forming of the opinions. I didn't realize that maybe that's where that came from for me, because watching this teenage kid, having to navigate a very real world in that way is just so it's more heartbreaking.
Julia: Now. I think being an adult with teenagers, then at the time you are a teenager.
Leslie: Yeah. Yeah, I know. Um, I saw just locally, a mom posts that her daughter was missing on Facebook and asked if anybody had any information. And so, you know, I had that conversation with my daughter last night and I was like, if you see anything with that notifies, like where she might be or anything like that, please just let me know.
Leslie: She's like, I don't really know her, but I've seen her before. And, um, so you know, these issues that are still. They're still present today. Um, and this was like the first limps that I had that I feel like I was aware of these things happening because I came from a very privileged household, um, which. You know, Angela does too, and doesn't realize it for, you know, everybody else is kind of looking and we're going to, I know we're going to talk about family so I can wait.
Leslie: I can hold it.
Julia: Yeah. And then the last thing I wanted to say was just showing the fear of the teacher of bringing him. The teacher bringing Ricky home because then his life would be found out. And that fear of being fired. Like I forgot how prevalent that still was in the nineties because now there's so, especially in California, I'm not sure about other states, but there's so many protections now.
Julia: Like you are considered a protected class if you're under the LGBTQ umbrella and that is no longer a fireable offense. And so it's just. It's nice to see how far we've come, but also it's a reminder of like, we still have so, so far to go.
Leslie: Yeah. I remember being out in, uh, going to the movies with a friend and I saw a teacher out with, with her.
Leslie: What I now think was her partner and she was just very low. Stand-offish kind of like, oh, hi. And then just like kept going and didn't really want to engage with us. Um, and you know, later on we're like, oh, I think that was her partner, her date, or, but yeah, at that time, people could be fired for that. And, um, and I, you know, I feel like it wasn't that long ago.
Leslie: I haven't heard anything recently, but you know, people being fired in private schools and that sort of thing. So. Yes. I, like I said, there's just so much depth that each of these episodes. Yeah,
Julia: yeah. He used by Juul offers, custom artwork and original prints, specializing in watercolor, focusing on the human form and different shades of skin.
Julia: If you're looking for that perfect gift for a birthday or have a special memory you'd like to commemorate visit Hughes by Juul on Instagram, or find the Etsy shop of the same name that's Hughes, H U E S by Jules, J U L. Angela's relationship with her. Mother is tense. Patty chase played by best Armstrong is a beautiful and delicate, elegant, and oftentimes vain woman.
Julia: As a 40 year old woman raising a family in the 1990s, Patty is fighting. What she believes her daughter should be, or even once was and what her daughter is becoming. Angela sees her mother's vanity and believes that she herself is not beautiful. Like her mother Patty is constantly offering suggestions to her daughter, which feels like criticism and judgment.
Julia: And honestly watching it again. I was like, yeah, it feels like you're, it feels like criticism and judgment to me too. All the while Danielle is clearly the daughter that Patty wanted Angela to be she's bubbly and fun. Not that Angela isn't, but all the wonderful things Angela and Patty did together.
Julia: Angela, no longer wish to do. And rather than spending the time with the daughter who would enjoy. Patty fights the change. We see the entire family, what it's like to be the children, when the parents aren't around what it's like to be the parents, when the children aren't around. So I want to talk about what your thoughts are on the portrayal of the family dynamic in the show, and then that relate-ability factors.
Leslie: Like I was certain to stay there a minute ago about how, um, it seems like everybody outside of the family looks to this family as like the ideal and. Um, you know, Brian not having his parents there a lot. Like they make him very independent and they're not involved as much. And he like looks at Angela.
Leslie: Like you should be lucky that your parents are here and want to spend time with you and ran looking at the family. Like you have a dad who cooks for you. And like, I would love to have that. So I feel like this family is, um, uh, has all this privilege. Doesn't realize that. And, and I think that's kind of like what comes up for me in my own work, with privilege and that, like, you don't always realize it sometimes, you know, like you don't always realize the privilege that you have because you're struggling too with different things in there.
Leslie: Each of the characters and the family has struggles. And so you might not recognize right away that you do have these different privileges, but, um, Yes. I am very triggered by Patty. And I think it's because I can relate to her because I am more like rigid with rules and like, that's, doesn't seem safe or that's like against the norm, even though.
Leslie: I would not, I don't want to be batty, but I know I see her sometimes, you know, like keeping my kids safe and that sort of thing. Hopefully not judgemental. I don't want, I don't want to have that. Um, and it's hard
Julia: because Patty doesn't think she's being judgemental in her delivery. Right. And so with the episode, when her mom comes to town, you see where she gets calm and you're just
Leslie: like,
Julia: okay, let's break this cycle.
Julia: Ma'am like, come on, let's break this cycle. But it's hard. It's hard because she thinks she's being helpful to Angela and Angela just like, this is just making it worse. We're just like,
Leslie: oh yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. That we can all hope that we do a little bit better in certain things than our parents and, um, you know, have more open minds and that sort of thing.
Leslie: But, um, yeah, you can see, um, just those family dynamics of like wanting to have family dinner and that sort of thing that, um, You know, Angela's like, uh, why do I have to do this? Other people are like, ah, you need to do that. Like, you're so lucky to have that. Yeah.
Julia: Especially when you get a better glimpse into Ryan's life and like the first introduction of her mom she's drinking and she's probably a little buzzed and you're just like, For me, my parents didn't drink in front of us really, unless it was like a holiday or something like that.
Julia: My dad just never touches the stuff, but my mom, you know, she likes wine and margarita is, but we were adults before. It was like, we're having wine at dinner. I think my brother, I think when my brother turned 21, he's seven years older than I am is when my parents like started incorporating alcohol into.
Julia: Holiday meals and like family time. And even then it wasn't very much, and it was when all of us were 21, they were actually like, there was more of a, um, we're going to have red wine with dinner kind of vibe. That was never part of my childhood at all. So seeing that with Ram's mom, it was just like, wow, that's crazy.
Julia: Oh, that's wild. And then when I became a parent myself, it was very ingrained in my head of like, you don't drink around your kids. Like, I remember very clearly his, my son's dad and I had a fight about the first birthday party. Cause we didn't have alcohol birthday parties for children. That was not my family.
Julia: We had a fight. He was like, we need to have beer at the party. And I'm like, it's a one time. Birthday party. Like, do you understand where I'm coming from? This is never, this is not my norm. Like, we don't do that in my family. We're not having alcohol at a one-year-old birthday party. We had, it was like a solid day.
Julia: We were mad at each other about this whole will we have beer or while we have beer, ultimately at the end of the day I won, but still, it was just like, When I, you know, it was just such a, such a foreign concept to me to like, be drinking around your kids. Like, that's not a thing my parents ever did.
Julia: That's not a thing my family did. So Rand's life was just like, holy buckets. Like that's. I had no idea at the time. Now I know lots of people, people in that scenario and it's, you know, some parents have a handle and some parents are clearly coping and you're just trying to like, how, how can we hug Rand's mom?
Julia: So she can feel like she's not a failure.
Leslie: Yeah, for sure. And then the dynamics between Patty and Ram's mom, like there's definitely judgment going on there. And, um, you know, Rand's mom feels that and, um, and then, or wanting to check in on Raytheon Ryan and, you know, the mom being like, I'm her mom, I can handle this.
Leslie: And. Yeah. So that's so interesting about your parents and like that works for your family. And so like, of course you want to like pass on that same kind of those same kind of values and traditions in your own family. We all come from different families. So yeah. What is standard? And one could be totally different from another.
Julia: Yeah, he was like, I don't think any of my friends are going to show up if there's not beer and I'm like, it's child's birthday party. Don't understand. I don't understand. I really, you know, I was 20 when I had my son, so I was 21 at this point. So I'm like, I don't very limited life experience.
Leslie: Yeah. You're just starting to.
Leslie: How about yourself? Maybe? I don't know, but I can the whole, um, mother daughter thing too. So my daughter's 14. She's about to turn 15. So now as I watching it this year, I was like, oh my gosh. Yeah. Now the, the roles have reversed and now I'm watching it from the parent lens. Although I can still remember what it was like to be a teenager.
Leslie: My mom was my mom's a hundred percent Italian, very petite. Five foot seven. That's not super tall, but it's like, I was always taller than my mom. We just didn't look alike. And so, you know, I could see like her classic beauty, but feel like I don't look like her. And my grandma would say like, you look so much like your dad and all growing up.
Leslie: And I was like, but I don't have a mustache. And you know, like I just didn't understand that as a little kid, like, I don't look like my dad because I don't have a mustache. And, um, so that kind of. Envy of like my mother's beauty, but knowing that I didn't look like her and then, you know, having to come to a certain age and like, that's okay.
Leslie: Like we have our own beauty in different ways, but kind of wanting to be like your mom. And, um, and so I can relate to that, that kind of relationship there. Definitely like with the hair stuff. I wasn't allowed to cut my hair until I was 12. Uh, it was always on it's long now by choice. Cause I think my mom brainwashed me when I was little and like you have to have long hair.
Leslie: Um, and so like that whole, like, I don't know what that is kind of control from a parent. What your child can do with their own hair. Like, that was a little different for me when I had my daughter and that like, yeah, you want to get a pixie cut. You're 10 years old. Like, sure. That's it's hair. It's going to grow back.
Leslie: You know, like trying to give her like some empowerment over her own body and that sort of thing, but also having limits in. And so. Yeah. The whole thing with hair was relatable to me. I love what you said
Julia: though, about the, um, having limits, but still allowing that, you know, exploration. Cause I think. With Patty's generation.
Julia: That's just not how she was raised. Like it was my way or the highway kind of parenting. And so she's trying to balance that line of like, you know, I want my kids to be who they are, but also you should be this way. And so you can, this time around, I can see the struggle in her to be like, well, what do we do?
Julia: Like, how are we supposed to support Angela? Because she's not how she's not turning out how we thought this would turn out. Um, And now like with our generation of parenting, we're a little bit more like, like my parents. Like your mom, my parents were like, you can't, you have to be, we had to be in high school before we could start wearing makeup.
Julia: Um, I don't even think I was allowed to dye my hair until I got into high school. And then it was the rule as natural colors only which red is a natural color. Um, but still, but still, you know, it was just a lot of like, Um, different things and like you with my son, it was like, he's like, can I, well, he shaved his head in that drove me crazy.
Julia: That was the only thing that I was actually had a physical response to her. It's just like, I don't like it. Cause he has beautiful hair. And I was just looking at
Leslie: as a parent, you're like, you see how perfect they are.
Julia: But when he wants to bleach it and diet and all these things, I'm like, yeah, go ahead, honey.
Julia: Like, it's fine. Just, you know, do it after picture day. So like, I don't get shit from grandma or a grandparent about your hair being bright blue on picture day. Um, like his last one, his friend shaved his head and then she did hand prints on his hair and I was like, that's fun. Like cool. Washed out like in two weeks because they didn't really that great of die.
Leslie: Yeah. That's such a good point about picture day two. I liked how they sat and they were like two days a year where I tell you what to wear and this that's one of them we're going to have, you know, if you have to do a class picture and you're standing up like your pants, Not be like ripped and all that stuff, but, uh, yeah, I think that's what it comes down to is like, I'm just, I just see the beauty in them and like, you don't need to change, but then the other, you know, knowing that perspective, like, but it's fun to be creative and try new colors and do new things.
Leslie: And so trying to, um, Kind of test those waters and see, but, but yeah, like you said, he shaved the, and you hated it. What, what is that within? It's like making us feel that way about something that they're choosing to do.
Julia: Yep. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. And then, you know, here's Danielle, who's just like, mom, I'll be, I'll be your pretty perfect princess.
Julia: Like pay attention to me. I'll do all those things with you. But I did love that episode where Angela full-on calls her out and she's just like, mom, you're beautiful and I'm not. And. What like you are so beautiful. Just, I love that immediate swoop in of like, I mean, this is my version and interpretation of it.
Julia: This is not how it actually went down, but in my mind it was like that sweeping and of like, girl, you crazy. Like you are beautiful. Don't buy into that bullshit. We just don't happen to look exactly the same. I
Leslie: love that too. It wasn't like she even had to think about it or anything. And. Yeah. And thinking back to her mom and how judgemental, and then also, you know, Patty has her own haircut and I think it might've had to do with, uh, it being a pilot episode like her, she probably already had short hairs that actress by the second episode or something, but it was kind of like, oh, maybe you were inspired by your daughter, uh, to try something new.
Julia: Yeah. I was listening to an interview that Angela Angela, her real name is 30 and did with on the armchair expert. And she, um, talks about how, when they shot the pilot, she was 13. And so like, it was like a year before it even got picked up. So, you know, the whole hair thing was probably is totally plausible because that's a long time to go between shooting a pilot and then actually getting ordered.
Leslie: Wow. I didn't realize she was 13, but there's definitely notable difference in how she looks a lot younger. And that first episode. Yeah. And I remember hearing an interview with her and she said something like, I didn't even know what I was saying. And some of these lines, because they're so thought-provoking and deep.
Leslie: And at that age, I could totally understand that. Like, what am I even saying right now? What does this mean?
Julia: The group cast, you know, the teenager, she's definitely the youngest one. Everyone was like in their twenties at the time. This show, in my opinion, still holds up in terms of themes of high school axed.
Julia: While I have no idea what it's like to be a high school kid in the decades in this decade, or even the last I do remember seeing Angela onscreen and feeling like I wasn't the only one confused, crushing on boys and wanting to break away from my parental expectations less than. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Julia: I really appreciate you taking the time out. And actually, I appreciate you presenting this topic as an option for us to discuss. Like I love, I was just so happy to rewatch it. So thank you for bringing it back into my life. Can you tell our friends where they can find you if they want to keep up with you online?
Leslie: Yes. Thank you so much for having me, because just having a conversation about the show, it just doesn't happen that often for me, because you know, like some of my friends watch it, they always associated it with me because I was obsessed with it. But, um, you know, like I'll even bring it up to somebody and they're like, oh yeah, I kind of remember that show, but having like an actual conversation about it besides my partner, he'll talk about it anytime now, which I love, but, um, I just really appreciate being here.
Leslie: So thank you for having me. And, um, yeah, so I'm a holistic relationship coach. Um, and I oftentimes work with people who have a relationship. That's been challenged by things like substance use, mental health, that sort of thing. Um, that's been my story, my partners in recovery, he's a chemical dependency counselor now and we've, um, Recovered from things like could have been a see myself and, uh, and eviction and all of those things.
Leslie: So it's my passion to talk about relationships. So, um, if you want to connect with me, come find me@risewithrecovery.com. Thank you.
Julia: And we'll link it in the show notes for all of our friends listening so they can take a look at your site. And I. I think I should also mention, I forgot to mention this. The show was canceled after its first season due to low ratings.
Julia: MTV later did pick it up and re air it, which caused a resurgence in its popularity. And now you can find it, um, on any. I think you can find it on the ABC app and it's currently playing on Hulu. So it is owned by Disney probably or ABC, or one of them they're subsets. But anyway, go watch my so-called life and then come back and talk to us online on Instagram.
Julia: You can find us. Pop culture makes me jealous until next time friends pop culture makes me jealous as written, edited, and produced by me, Julia Washington. If you love our show and want to support it, there's a few ways you can do that. You can become a supporter on Patreon for $10 a month to receive ad free episodes with bonus content.
Julia: Or you can write a review and rate the podcast wherever you find your. And lastly, if neither of those things is your style, you can find us on Instagram. Give us a follow and share a video clips with your friends. We're on IG as pop culture makes me jealous. Thanks for tuning in y'all.
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