Conversations with Friends | 17
Show Notes:
We welcome back Leah Carey to discuss Sally Rooney's Conversations with Friends adapted in 2022 by Hulu.
Conversations with Friends, the book was first published in 2017 and is Rooney's debut novel.
Click here to join our Patreon
You can find Leah at her website: www.leahcarey.com
Transcript:
Julia: Hey friends, this is Pop Culture Makes me jealous where we talk about pop culture through the lens of race or gender, and sometimes both. Leah Carey is here and we are talking about conversations with friends,
Julia: conversations with friends released on Hulu on May 15th, 2022, and stars Allison Oliver, Joe Alwin, Jemiah, MCC, Kirk, and Sasha Lane. The show was adapted from the book of the same name by Sally Rooney. But before we dive in, let me reintroduce you to my guest. Leah Carey is a sex and intimacy coach and host of the podcast.
Julia: Good Girls talk about sex. Her superpower is radical empathy. She works with people eager to explore new avenues of their sexuality and fulfill their greatest desires, like diving back into the dating pool after a long time away. Having first time queer experiences investigating consensual non-monogamy or learning how to communicate about kinks.
Julia: She was here in season three for normal people and if you haven't tuned into that conversation, it was a fabulous chat. So definitely listen to that. Next, you can find her@leahcarey.com and you can find the podcast@goodgirlstalk.com. Leah, welcome back to the show. Thanks so much
Leah: for having me. I'm excited cuz our last conversation was so much fun.
Leah: It was
Julia: so good. I was like, I like, it's so hard to re to re record and then like have release date weeks later. Yeah, because after we recorded it was like, this conversation was so good. Like how do I shuffle my season so I can just like drop it next week?
Julia: Oh man. Okay. So Leah bef the season four is all about wealthy women in media. So I've been asking this question of all of my guests Before we dive into like the official topic. Do you remember what you thought of rich or wealthy women when you were younger?
Leah: So I've been thinking about this cause I knew you were going to ask and, um, I feel like there are two, two separate sides.
Leah: Like I'm a Gemini, so there are two sides to everything, right? So, um, if I looked at the world through my father's eyes and he was my, I mean, I was parented by both my parents mm-hmm. But he was probably my primary influence for a, a really long time about how I looked at the world. Um, he. Was somebody who sort of collected famous people the way that other people collect baseball cards.
Leah: Hmm. You know, like he had a lot of famous, rich, powerful friends. And so through his eyes rich women were just, you know, part of our world. They just, you know, like Julia Childs came and stayed at my parents' Country Inn when I was a baby. So, you know, like that kind of woman was just part of our everyday experience.
Leah: If I look at the world through my mother's eyes, and I'd say that when I became like a teenager and young adult, she was very much my, um, primary influence about how I interacted with the world. She had a deep suspicion of people who were wealthy. Oh, interesting. And so in what I learned from her, Was that I should probably be careful about how successful I became, because if I became financially successful, then it probably meant that I was doing something like unethical or interesting.
Leah: Yeah. So that's something that I'm still having to deconstruct, like how successful am I allowed to be? Yeah. Before I hit that moment where I think my mother would no longer respect me.
Julia: Right. Yeah. Oh, that's so fascinating. You know, and the reason why your answer just hits me in a way is I was just having a conversation with a friend of mine.
Julia: There's this movement that's happening with women specifically in the Midwest, my apologies to Midwest listeners, where there's this idea that women entering the workforce is kind of what messed up the economy and sort of. Shifted things and, you know, why would women wanna work? And like all this sort of mentality of like, didn't we have it so much better 70 years ago kind of stuff.
Julia: And both of my grandmothers were older. I had a grandma born in 1912. I had a grandma born in 1916. So, you know, generationally and just what they experienced through the 20th century, both of them wholeheartedly, without any hesitation, constantly reminded me to always have my own money. Ah, my mom did the same.
Julia: And so to, to, to add that layer of like, Wealthy people. Like that wasn't ever really part of the conversation. It was always like, you need to be able to take care of yourself. Mm-hmm. And so now as I'm having these conversations with people, it's like, well, what does that even mean? Like, what would qualify?
Julia: Because my income now, my parents would've been floating and comfortable 40 years ago on what I make now. And now it's like, oh, you are
Leah: so tight. Like, why is gas so expensive? Oh my god.
Julia: You know, things and, and, but it's like not having to worry about asking permission to spend money like that. That was a thing I re Yeah.
Julia: You know, it's, you don't wanna have to ask permission to spend money. Yeah. You don't wanna live on an allowance your husband gives
Leah: you. And it was not that many years ago that we wouldn't have even been able to get credit cards in our own name without a husband's permission. Mm-hmm. Like literally the 1970s.
Leah: Yes. Yes. So yeah, we're not that far away from all
Julia: that. Right. My mother's generation, she was, um, she was in her twenties and the seventies. It's so interesting how much is rapidly changing, about how women had it quote, um, 50, 60, 70 years ago. Mm-hmm. Which is like my grandparents were raising children in the forties and fifties and.
Julia: I think that's telling. If they were here to this day, if they were still here, they'd probably be like, we're so happy you can pay your own bills.
Leah: I think my, uh, I didn't really know my father's mother, but my mother's mother, I think would be horrified that I am 48. Never married, no kids. Oh my
Julia: gosh.
Leah: Yeah.
Leah: Like, I did not fulfill the Jewish ideal.
Julia: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I think one of the things that was hard for my grandma, my, my dad's mom before she passed was that I would still the only grandchild that's never been married, so we should start a club. I'm like, I don't know if I wanna get married.
Julia: Like dude can live next door. Right. I like having my own bedroom. Like I'm cool. Yeah. I have yet to meet a person who makes me wanna share a bed every day. Okay.
Leah: Yeah. You know, to jump ahead for just a second, but there's a moment in this book or in this. Story where we find out that Nick and Melissa don't share a bed, and somehow this is supposed to be like a major revelation about the state of their marriage.
Leah: Oh my God. Yeah. Not sharing a bed with your partner is completely fine. Right. I know, know a lot of people that do that. Oh, that, yeah. My partner, we have a, a, a couch that is really comfortable to sleep on and he'll sleep out on there probably half of the nights because he just likes to not have to worry if his toss and, and turning mm-hmm.
Leah: Is bothering me. Mm-hmm. I mean, totally. And neither of us has to be angry Yeah. In order for him to go
Julia: out there. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Okay, friends, let's do a quick summary of conversations with friends and because I, I'm pretty sure this is the show description rather than the book description. I'm confident in that 90% confident in that.
Julia: Two Dublin college students, Francis and Bobby, and the strange and unexpected connection, they forged with a married couple, Melissa and Dick. That must have been from Google. That is like that. It gives you nothing. So as I mentioned before, conversations with Friends released on Hulu. It's the second Hulu original adaptation of Sally Rooney's work at the time of its release.
Julia: The Atlantic had this to say and it's kind of a lengthy excerpt, so hang, hang in with me guys. Sensual realistically choreographed sex scenes abound as do heavy silences and meaningful looks. But though that naturalistic formula allowed for a rich examination of intimacy in normal people, it sanitizes conversations, perhaps the trickiest entry in Rooney's of war.
Julia: I own to always say that wrong. It misses how conversations Ma Marks Rooney at her most darkly observant when it comes to her own age group. To read, Rooney is to read millennial malaise as interpreted by Europe's former university level debate champion to watch conversations is to watch her acerbic words.
Julia: Detailing the agony of the millennial experience. So performative, so insecure, get watered down until they argue nothing at all. End quote. There's a lot of words I stumbled over. Cause sometimes words are hard for me on a Friday. So Leah, I wanna get into your overall impression of conversations with friends.
Leah: Do you really? Yes, I
Julia: really do. We have to criticize television. I, I know, especially when they're embarking on new i I air quote new. Right. Yeah. Ideas, you know? Yeah.
Leah: All right. So for your listeners who have heard our, um, our episode about normal people, I am not a Sally Rooney hater. I thought normal people was exquisite.
Leah: The Hulu adaptation specifically, I. Hated this series so much. And I had, I had told you that I would watch it and read it so that we could do this episode. And, um, I suffered through watching it. Honestly, I hated it. And then I emailed you and I was like, if we can do this conversation without me reading the book, cool.
Leah: If you need me to read the book, I'm not doing it. I'm not putting myself through that again.
Leah: Um, so the question then is why did I hate it so much? Um, I was really disturbed at, well, so first of all, my very first contact with this, um, property. Yeah. What a, what a word, um, was seeing an ad for the Hulu series before it came out, and I was really excited because it looked like it was going to be a show that really dealt with the concept of non-monogamy.
Leah: Mm-hmm. As, uh, sex c an intimacy coach coaching people through that transition from monogamy to non-monogamy is one of my favorite things. I absolutely love it because it's so rich. There's so much that needs to be talked about and negotiated and thought through and really deeply considered, and I think that's best done with a third party.
Leah: Mm-hmm. You know, with somebody who can step out and say, okay, well, have you thought about this and, and are you being honest with yourself about these things? Or are you just sort of seeing it through the rose colored glasses of what you hope it will be? That kind of thing. So I come into this show thinking it's going to be an exploration of not, of ethical non-monogamy.
Leah: Mm-hmm. And oh my God, it is not. It is. It is. Oh, okay. Sorry. I am so angry about that's,
Julia: I think that's fair. Being angry about it. Cuz I think when we originally had the conversation I was like, oh, it's such a great show. You have to watch it. It's so good. And then, you know, I mentioned earlier, before we started chatting about, started recording, I was like, oh, you know, I had it on the background the last week.
Julia: And there's things where I'm just like, wait, what? Wait, what? Yeah, wait. Because I was in a different place when I watched it the first time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Especially her age. Her age. I didn't, I forgot she was so young. Mm-hmm. And that actually really bothers me in this scenario. Yeah. Because at 21, who has language to understand.
Julia: Relationships in general, especially when we don't do anything to explore relationships and our sexuality. Yeah.
Leah: Ever. Yeah. I mean, I think there are some 20 year olds who, or 21 year olds, who absolutely can participate in ethical non-monogamy. Mm-hmm. And can, like, that's just a part of who they are and how they move through the world.
Leah: But this was never set up as ethical non-monogamy. This was set up as non-ethical, non-monogamy, otherwise known as cheating. Mm-hmm. And in this particular case, she is fairly sheltered. She's only ever had one sexual partner. Um, He is relatively well off financially. He's, um, I, it's hard to tell if he's famous or just like a, um, you know, successful working actor.
Leah: Mm-hmm. But he's, he is in that world that sort of gives him like that little bit of cache. Mm-hmm. And he's 10 years older than her. That is not a power balance. That is okay. Especially when what you're talking about is pulling her into a situation where he already has a primary committed partner. Mm-hmm.
Julia: Not, okay. The other part that hit, that struck me this time that I didn't pay attention to last time was I, I knew Melissa and Bobby were having moments. They just happen so much off, they all happen off screen. So we don't see that develop. So we don't even get the other side of what Melissa and Bobby are going through.
Julia: And that's, you know, Rooney's style, right? She's focusing on the one character and then everything's sort of for everyone else happens off screen. Um, but this time around I thought, well, I'd be curious to know a little bit more about like, especially at that point when Nick tells Melissa that he's been having a relationship with.
Julia: Francis, Francis, I forgot her name for a second. Almost said Sally. Um, because by that point we know that Melissa and Bobby have had a kiss. We know that Melissa, that Bobby is, is just completely infatuated with Melissa. What we don't, what wasn't clear to me was, is Bobby pulling away now that she, and, and we also know that Bobby now knows about Nick and Francis.
Julia: So what wasn't clear was, is Bobby now pulling away from Melissa because she knows about Nick and Francis? Or are they still sort of embarking in, you know, some sort of whatever, emotional, whatever? Yeah, however they define it, we don't know because we don't see that side of it and we don't understand that side of it.
Julia: We only see it through Francis's lens. Mm-hmm.
Leah: Yeah. And the whole thing with Melissa and Bobby is all is troubling in some of. The same ways, well, first of all, we also know that Melissa has had a series of affairs, right. Which never really gets addressed. So like, is Nick doing this as sort of an evening of the scores?
Leah: Mm. Which is entirely possible and a thing that happens when people have been cheated on. Mm-hmm. Um, and there's that same power dynamic imbalance between Bobby and Melissa, and maybe even a little more pronounced because Melissa is like definitively successful mm-hmm. In her field, and it's a field that Bobby cares about.
Leah: Um, so yeah, I, I just. And then there's this power dynamic between Bobby and Francis that I find deeply confusing. Why in the world would Francis remain friends with this person who is consistently cruel to her? Mm-hmm. And then add on top of that, that they're former lovers and it seems like that didn't end very well.
Leah: So like, why in the world does that relationship exist?
Julia: Right. And then too, when you know Francis kind of call, you know, they have that conversation about how the relationship ended because there's all these things within Francis and Bobby's. You know, Francis is like, I don't remember. That I don't remember those things about the way our relationship ended.
Julia: And she's like, well, I'm sorry you feel that way. Mm-hmm. You know, and she just kind of doesn't take, cuz she's not been nurturing to her at all throughout the entire series, but it just felt so, like, that's your fault.
Leah: Yeah. Yeah. Bobby is, so, I was probably three episodes into the show when I, I made my partner watch it with him, and I turned to him and I said, the only way that I'm, the only ending that I'm okay with in this series is if Francis dumps Nick and Bobby, he goes and finds a new press set of friends.
Leah: Like that's the only ending that's acceptable,
Julia: honestly, because they're both sort of treating her as if h how do I wanna say this? They're. It doesn't feel like they actually care about her. Yeah. You know, Nick presents well and does all of those intimate things that would make her believe that she is cared for, but really it's not,
Leah: well, there's virtually no emotional intimacy between them.
Leah: Mm-hmm. There's sexual intimacy, which especially when you're 21, is easy to mistake for emotional intimacy, but they literally don't have conversations. She doesn't tell him that she is having this massive physical issue going on until months after. Um, so. Like there is a, and they just don't talk to each other.
Leah: Mm-hmm. They even joke about how they don't talk to each other. So, you know, when I said before that one of my favorite things about dealing with this transition from monogamy to non-monogamy with people is going through all of those conversations and that that really deep thought and all of that, they have none of that.
Leah: They never talk about what's going on except to say, is it wrong? Right. They have absolutely no negotiations about what their boundaries are, what they wanna tell people, how and when they're going to get together, because basically she's just available at his whim all the time. Mm-hmm. I mean, there's, there is no communication or negotiation and therefore there cannot be emotional intimacy between
Julia: them.
Julia: Yeah. Which honestly, in my personal opinion, is like the best part. Right. Well, I mean, because, you know, some people are scared of emotional intimacy and don't really wanna embark on that. I'm like, are, is it time for us to have conver? Can we please start working on emotional intimacy before anything? Yeah.
Julia: Like that to me, makes me feel whole Yeah. When I'm with somebody and that's what I want. And so, you know, I've been accused of being the person who's like, oh, you're in love with everybody. No, I just want to build a deep, meaningful connection and whatever intimacy looks like for us, if it's emotional, then I'm here for it.
Leah: Yeah, yeah. Oh, I just make, I'm sorry. I just keep going back to how upsetting this is and, uh, let me clarify that. I'm not upset because the story is being told. I think that it's fine to show unhealthy relationships and ways that things go wrong. What upsets me is that it is being, It's being given to us.
Leah: Mm-hmm. And marketed as a depiction of ethical non-monogamy. And it is the opposite of that. And you know, we're in, before there were a lot of gay characters on screen. Every single individual gay character had to like represent the entire mm-hmm. The entirety of the community, which is never fair. Well we are in a time where there's not very much depiction of non-monogamy.
Leah: And so this has unfortunately not fair, but this has a higher bar to clear and it doesn't Yeah. And I would even, I would be way more okay with it if in the final act we had some exploration of how do we do this ethically? But we don't. Instead we just revert right back to the beginning where she's with Bobby and what's his name?
Leah: Nick calls and she says, take me away. And it's so ambiguous about whether she's getting back to him, getting back with him. If she's leaving Bobby, if she's wanting to do non-monogamy. There clearly have been no conversations. There's been no growth. If we had seen some grappling with how to make a non-monogamous relationship work, I would be all in.
Leah: Yeah. But none of that happened.
Julia: Yeah. And you almost have to start there. Not almost. You do have to start there. I think since we don't have an any real representation of ethical non-monogamy, you do have to sort of start at the beginning and be like, Ask those questions, like show people sort of stumbling through it if it's a stumble, I don't know.
Julia: You know, and just showing that beginning stages, because what makes storytelling for certain types of stories already so easy for us to sort of dump, dive into without explanation is because they've existed for a hundred years. Right. Like the concept of Romeo and Juliet, we don't need that explained.
Julia: It's literally in everything. Yeah. Like, it just exists. We don't have to have the, you know, explanations of those things of that. And, and, and I think the same is true a lot of times for when it comes to like black stories. There's a lot of like mm-hmm. Here's how black people exist. Um, Storytelling because there's still not a ton of just like, we're just gonna plop you into the world and you're just gonna come along for the ride.
Julia: Yeah. And the same is true I think for, I think any non-represented or any underrepresented community. Yeah. There's
Leah: only one show I've ever seen, um, that I think responsibly depicts that journey into ethical non-monogamy. I think it's on Netflix and it's called Wanderlust.
Julia: Oh yeah, I'm familiar
Leah: with it.
Leah: Tony Collette. Um, I need to go back and rewatch it, but they actually show all of the stumbling and falling and trying to have the conversations. And I told you, I wasn't sure if I was gonna talk about this, but what the hell? Um, so between the time where I first watched this show a, a few months ago, and today my partner and I have actually decided to transition from.
Leah: Mostly monogamous too. Ethically, non-monogamous. And the key element of that is that we have spent dozens of hours just talking about what that means to us, what our boundaries are, what we're okay with, what we're not okay with. You know, super, even down to super specific things like you need to use condoms for these activities.
Leah: And it's okay if you don't for these. Mm-hmm. It's okay, you know? Are there any sex acts that we wanna keep just between the two of us versus things that you know, we can do with anybody? Like really deep, detailed conversations. And I am sure that we're still going to have road bumps. Of course we are.
Leah: People's feelings are involved, but. Like, there's less than zero of that here, and it's, so, it feels like at the end it, like I said, it's, it's kept very ambiguous what Francis is about to do, but it certainly leaves open the potential that they're about to potentially go into some sort of polyamorous dynamic.
Leah: But if you are going into polyamory, everybody has to be in and everybody has to go in with their eyes open, right? And that is clearly not what's going on because Melissa and Bobby are still in the dark. Right.
Julia: You know, it's interesting, when you were speaking, it reminded me, so I've seen the movie Bros twice and I'm actually contemplating going a third time.
Leah: Oh, I wanna see it so much.
Julia: I'm a romcom junkie. Yeah. And this hits all the things, but then there's a lot of stuff that, because I'm not in the queer community that I was introduced to that I was like, oh, I never considered that. Because you know, the conversation of love is love and all these things, right?
Julia: Yeah. Anyway, there's this, oh shoot, I don't know if I wanna give this away then, but there's a scene where there's a couple who's like, Hey, what's the deal? They're drinking, they're having a good time. And I thought of you because they're drinking, having a good time, and then they wanna embark on this sort of important conversation.
Julia: And I was like, mm-hmm. Leah told us not to have those conversations when we are not in a mental place to do it. Um, and then the aftermath of that conversation the next day, and you know, it felt. Human with the way that I saw it. I'd be curious about your opinion. You'll know exactly what I'm talking about when you go see.
Julia: Yeah.
Leah: Um, there, the other sort of gay romcom that came out recently, um, I don't remember if it's on Hulu or Netflix, was, uh, fire Fire Island. Oh, I love that. Who loved it. And there's that moment at the end where he says, I'm not good at monogamy. Mm-hmm. And the other guy's like, cool. That is how you start the conversation.
Leah: Yes. You say what is true, not what the other person, what you think the other person's gonna wanna hear. Yes.
Julia: Oh, I, I've watched that movie so many times. I just want all the romcoms.
Julia: Co-Star CoStar is what they're called, the astrology app or whatever. They keep posting these things about like your, you know what your sign is if you fall in love and mine was like a meat, cute with a, and then whatever. I was like, hundred percent. I love meat. Cute. Sign me up, nailed itar. Um, I dunno about other Pisces, but you nailed it for me.
Julia: If you understand the nuances and intersections of being a Bipo woman, a woman identifying a woman in a male dominated industry, and all the microaggressions that come with the daily existence and how media reinforces those stereotypes, but you still love pop culture and then pop culture makes me jealous.
Julia: Best Friends Club on Patreon is just for you. Join an incredible community of like-minded individuals who meet monthly to discuss a different topic in pop culture, access to bonus content, weekly lunchtime, hangout sessions, and discounts on merch. To learn more about how to become a part of the best friends club, visit pop culture makes me jealous.com/become a member.
Julia: There's a hyphen in between. Become a Member, become hyphen a hyphen member. See you there.
Julia: We have merch. Visit pop culture makes me jealous.com/merch to purchase today. Some hoodies and t-shirts are the pop culture staples, but you don't wanna miss out on our seasonal collections, whether it's specific to the show or a season. Catch those limited edition styles before they're gone. Visit pop culture makes me jealous.com/merch to shop and use promo code Shop pod to receive 15% off your first order.
Julia: That's S H O P P O D. Be sure to tag us on social, wearing your swag.
Julia: We're looking for advertising partners. When you support the podcast, you're supporting a woman owned bipo small business. We're looking for other small business partners who want to get in front of an audience of like-minded folks looking to smash the patriarchy and make cultural change. Email pop culture makes me jealous@gmail.com.
Julia: To get started,
Julia: one of the quickest and easiest ways to support our show is by subscribing, rating and reviewing our podcast on Apple podcasts. Sharing with other users while you love this show and reasons to tune in, is a simple kindness that will forever go appreciated by team Pop. Culture makes me jealous. I'm gonna be honest.
Julia: Writing a review is the strongest move because when you write a review, it helps that pesky algorithm tell Apple. This show is loved, like, subscribe and leave a review. Thanks for all your support, friend.
Julia: Do you love to read? Pop Culture Makes me Jealous. Hosts a monthly book club that reads books that have been adopted for the screen. We meet on the fourth Sunday of every month via Zoom. The book club is open to anyone but Patreon Pals can vote on our monthly read and have access to our replay to sign up, hit the link in the show note.
Julia: What the show summary fails to mention, and we kind of touched on a little bit already, is that Nick and Melissa are successful. Mostly Melissa is a writer with a career that she feels is hitting roadblocks. Nick is an actor, and to me, I got the impression that he was more of a successful working actor than like an ultra famous celebrity.
Julia: Mm-hmm. Compared to Bobby and Francis, this couple has wealth and some level of power within the circles they populate. In a review from N P R writer Linda Holmes had this to say, quote, normal people is more conventional, built around a couple, around their drawing together and pulling apart over the years conversations with friends.
Julia: While it is primarily the story of a shy poet named Francis is built around four people and all the relationships between and among them over a shorter time, but with a complex and multi-directional, multi-directional set of dynamics, its potential outcomes are multiplied. Its narrative paths are more curved, more tangled, end quote.
Julia: So how would you describe the relationship between Nick and Francis in this show? Frustrating.
Julia: Fair. That is a hundred percent fair assessment. I mean, we don't have to expand if you don't want to.
Leah: Well, I mean, we've already touched on some of it. There's a power imbalance that's not okay. He, his motives are pretty murky. Given that. His wife has cheated on him and now he's embarking on cheating on her.
Leah: Um,
Julia: the whole She even acknowledges, sorry to interrupt you. No. Yeah. He even acknowledges the fact that there is potentially, there is a power dynamic cuz he, well, you don't need to apologize. I'm older, I should know better. Yeah. And you're just kind of like, okay, yeah,
Leah: you're saying the right things, but ew.
Leah: Yeah. Yeah. There's that conversation about am I going to tell Melissa am I not about what's going on? And that also felt very one-sided. Mm-hmm. Like, he was making the decision and Francis was gonna go along with whatever he decided, um, in a way that makes me uncomfortable. You know, like Francis is a full, a full participant in this, and yet it never, it never seems like she's more than, you know, 15 or 20% of.
Leah: Uh, either of the relationships she's in, the other person is very dominating, um, in both those relationships and Sure. That is, that's a personality type. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. But again, if what we're doing is really looking at monogamy and non-monogamy, that's, that's a problem. Mm-hmm. That is not a way to go into this.
Julia: Yeah. Something that I struggled with, with this time around, and I'm surprised I didn't catch it the first time, cuz this kind of thing usually typically bothers me. The use of a pregnancy or pregnancy scare and then the way that it's handled. Mm-hmm. Like I struggle with women using that. As a way to, and, and, and, and internalizing it and not sharing it, and then being angry months later.
Julia: Not that I'm saying that, um, Francis was angry later, but she didn't share with Nick what was going on. Whether it was, you know, endometriosis or they thought she was pregnant, like you mentioned earlier. She brings it up months later. That kind of thing really bothers me because when it comes to pregnancy, And being concerned about being pregnant.
Julia: You're not having an auth, you're not having a conversation about what your body's going through, how it's being affected. Because those emotions also play into that physical response and your intimacy as well. Hmm. And so here she, in my opinion mm-hmm. And here she is months later saying, oh, well, you know, they thought I was having a miscarriage.
Julia: Turns out I wasn't. And you're just like, what is he supposed to do with that? It's months later. Yeah. Like, what is the point of that? And we see that kind of sh info share a lot happening in pop culture. Mm-hmm. And I think that also changes how we view pregnancy when we're continuously presenting it in this way.
Leah: Oh, that's really interesting. I hadn't thought about any of that.
Julia: I'm very, I'm very sensitive to the way we present pregnancy. Yeah. As a. Person who got pregnant at 19, parent by 20. Um, and, and you know, she's 21, so it's not that far off from my age at the time I had my child, so I'm, you know, so even when they're, like, when you're 35, 45 and that shit's happening, I'm just like, come on, do better writers.
Julia: Like, you can do better than that. Like, we know better at 35 than to like dangle that four months later at 21. I'm like, please stop telling if the age group that's watching it, watching this, that's similarly aged to Francis, like, stop telling them to do that. Stop saying like, stop normalizing that way we handle pregnancy.
Julia: Mm-hmm. Because in this old ass man, he's not an old ass man, but in comparison to, you know, Francis and this older guy is like, what do I do with that? I don't know how to respond. And it's, it's not, it's not fair to either party, in my opinion. Mm-hmm.
Leah: That whole thing was upsetting to me. In ways that I'm not sure I've even parsed out for myself.
Leah: Mm-hmm. Yet the way that everything around her health issues was handled is, that doesn't sit well with me. But I don't know exactly why yet. Yeah, yeah. Um, but to go back to your question about Nick and um, Francis' relationship and what I think about it, um, the other aspect of it that I found uncomfortable was the storyline about how he was depressed until Francis showed up and somehow she magically cured him.
Leah: Right.
Julia: That's another trope we need to stop telling people.
Leah: Yeah. That is super uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. That's like a, people don't cure you. B part of what's probably going on there is new relationship energy, which is when you start dating somebody new, all of the happy chemicals get released in your brain.
Leah: And it does, it feels magical. Yeah. And our brain, the, the reason that so many people are like, I, I can't feel, I don't feel the way that I felt at the beginning. It's because we can't maintain that level of like, bombardment of chemicals to the brain. So over time they level out. Um, and that's why those first weeks and months and maybe even a year feels so magical because you're being flooded with hormones.
Leah: And so to equate the coming out of depression mm-hmm. With, she just makes him so happy. Without recognizing, no, there are probably some mental health issues there that need to be dealt with. There's also the lasting effects of Melissa's affairs. Mm-hmm. That happened during that period, and no recognition that this new relationship energy thing is happening and is affecting him.
Leah: It just, it feels irresponsible
Julia: to me. Yeah. Yeah, you make a really good point because a lot of people do sort of turn to relationships or trying to chase, um, some kind of emotional high when they are in a, in a dark place rather than dealing with what's really
Leah: happening. Absolutely. And there are some people who are just, um, would call it a romantic, meaning I don't really want a committed romantic relationship.
Leah: That's not how I move through the world. So that's one way of being It's totally fine, totally normal. Um, there are other people who don't settle into committed relationships because one of their ways of dealing with the world is to get that new relationship energy, high time after time. And as soon as the high starts to go away, they end the relationship because it's not fun any anymore.
Leah: Mm-hmm. And they move on to catch the next high. And I mean, I. I'm not gonna say that's a, a poor coping mechanism because honestly, whatever gets you through the day and keeps you standing up, I'm here for Yeah. Um, but it's also not necessarily the most adaptive way mm-hmm. To deal with mental health issues.
Leah: Um, I totally forgot where I was going, but yeah, that whole thing really didn't sit well with me either. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah. I think whatever we can do to show. Um, I, so I haven't watched Handmaids Tale because I read the book and I'm still trying to recover. Um, that's like what I tell people cuz when, whenever they're like, oh, you would love it, I'm like mm-hmm.
Julia: Read the book. I'm am cool. I don't need to see a, a
Leah: visual. I saw them. So I read the book when I was in high school mm-hmm. And uh, was part of this club that went to see the Robert Duval movie when it came out. And I'm. Seriously scarred. I cannot see Robert Dubal on the screen. I've never been able to watch anything else.
Leah: He does. Oh my God. So there's no way I'm watching the
Julia: TV show. Thank you. We should start. That's another club we can start. Um, and so would the, one of the gals was telling me about how she watched, they do like a little info clip at the end. You know how like Showtime, H B O and all those shows? Mm-hmm.
Julia: We'll do like, here's where we're coming from for this episode. Oh yeah. And they brought people in who have, who work with folks who experience certain types of trauma that they're showing in the show, so that way they can have an accurate representation of what it's like when somebody's going through this psychosis or whatever.
Julia: And I thought that's really interesting because we hear so often. When somebody does something, when they're in a terrible state of mental health, everyone already immediately has an opinion or, or a solution. Um, but at the end of the day, I think that when it comes to mental health representation, the responsibility is so much greater than any other representation.
Julia: Yeah. Because if you know somebody with bipolar disorder, then you know one person with bipolar disorder, right? Yeah. Like if you know somebody with a mo, I don't know what they call it now, but anyway, you know, whatever, like whatever you can find in the diagnostic manual, you know, one person with it. Yeah.
Julia: And I think that, Depression and anxiety is one that isn't, you know, we're not, none of us are immune to that. So when you are trying to have a story, not trying, when you are having a story that includes a character who is suffering from depression, you know, there's a huge responsibility there. I was actually kind of annoyed too that they didn't handle it.
Julia: A lot of times when there's stories that deal with mental health, specifically depression or anxiety, they'll, there will be like a little, if you ha if you are having a hard mm-hmm. Day today, call this number. Mm-hmm. And so that's the kind of stuff I like to see when you're talking about that. The other thing too, and I've talked about this a couple of times on the show, When I lost my job in 2016, it threw me into a serious situation, but I didn't understand the difference between situational depression and chronic depression because everyone just talks about depression and there was no delineation.
Julia: Yeah. So my friend who has chronic depression since we were like in high school, was the one who walked me through that because I was like, I don't understand. And walked me through in understanding that mine was situational. Mm-hmm. And, and, and then having that realization was like, oh, okay. So it's a different type of help I'm seeking then, because I am, this is situational because I've never been a person who's had, um, deep, dark, sad episodes.
Julia: It's always been, you know, pretty happy, Jo. Well, I don't know. It, it's never been my na my natural disposition is, you know, pretty sunny. I don't know if this language is helping the situation at all either, but, you know, it's one of those things. So, and then now you know, I've, you know, I got help and things.
Julia: Have I, my situation improved. And so like, now, you know, Bad things happen, but it doesn't throw me. Yeah. Like 10 years ago, bad things happened, but it didn't derail me. Mm-hmm. But in that short period of time when I had lost my job, everything was derailing me. Mm-hmm. I couldn't grasp my emotions to save my life.
Julia: Yeah. And, you know, so, so I was like, oh, that's really interesting to me, it was really interesting to understand how her depression affects her compared to what I was going through in a situation they don't compare. Mm-hmm. But it helped me understand a little bit better. And now I know like, Okay. Yeah.
Julia: Like here's how I can be a better support. Yeah. All that to say, going back to, I really do think there's a greater level of responsibility when we're having stories with mental health. Yeah. And
Leah: I, I think I wanna just name this quickly, which is that I don't think that our entertainment is required to do all of the social justice work.
Leah: Right. For all of the everything. Um, I do think that when you're dealing with something that's sort of outside the mainstream, you do have a responsibility to at least not be harmful. Yes. To at least not be irresponsible. Yeah. So, for instance, um, I can't remember if we talked about this last time or not.
Leah: Have you seen the movie? Good luck to you, Leo Grand.
Julia: Yes.
Leah: Phenomenal
Julia: movie. I was like, oh, Emma, could you get better? Like, could you be more of a queen? Like serious on
Leah: girl? So anyone who hasn't seen this, it's Emma Thompson in one of my favorite roles I've ever seen her in where she is an older woman who I think is widowed and and she's never had good sex.
Leah: She's never enjoyed sex in her life. So she hires a young sex worker to have some experiences with. It is a masterful film. Does it teach you everything you need to know about sex work? Of course not. Are there some problematic depictions in it? Of small things? Absolutely. But. It's not irresponsible mm-hmm.
Leah: In the way that it depe in depicts sex work, sex workers and sex work clients. Mm-hmm. It is actually incredibly responsible, does a bunch of education while also being entertaining. Yeah. And ultimately that's what I would hope for something like this, where we're dealing with non-monogamy, that it could straddle some of that line and it failed on every
Julia: count.
Julia: Um, I, I was actually wondering what you thought of that film too, because after I watched it, I was like, this is one of the best movies I've seen all year. Yeah. And I love the guy who plays Leo Grand. Mm-hmm. Because he, my first introduction to him was on Peaky Blinders, and I loved him on Peaky Blinders.
Julia: And to no surprise to anyone who's a regular listener, he's team mixed, his mom's white and his dad is black. So I'm like, Yes. Mixed representation. Thank you.
Leah: Yeah. And he's hot Uhhuh. He's so
Julia: hot. Uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm not mad at looking at him. Oh
Leah: God. Me either. And I have to say, so I mean, people who don't know my story, I come from a super repressed background, uh, sexually repressed background.
Leah: So I am essentially the Emma Thompson character. Mm. Except that I'm about, I started my journey at, uh, 43. So I'm a couple decades younger than that character. But other than that, I'm pretty much exactly in the same place she is. Yeah. And my first, um, experience with sort of exploring some other aspects of my sexuality were with a sex worker.
Leah: Mm. Um, a female sex worker, and. I have in the year since been to a couple of other sex workers. I also have a lot of sex workers among my friends. And what I love about that show is it gets so much right. Mm-hmm. It really, it shows us the deep humanity and uh, the sincere responsibility that a good sex worker feels with a client.
Leah: Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. It's just beautiful. I know we're off the topic of what we said we were gonna talk about, but Oh my God, I love that movie.
Julia: That's okay. The last thing I'll say about it too is I loved her vulnerability. Mm-hmm. And I loved his willingness to meet her there.
Leah: Yeah. Like that moment where she says, I'm afraid that I am not gonna be good enough for you.
Leah: Mm-hmm. I literally had that moment and. Was really up in my head and scared of the idea that I might be so bad at sex that even a sex worker would be disappointed. Yeah. Without remembering that I am paying them in order to have this experience. There's no such thing as me not being good enough. But I loved how they wrote that in like, that's so real.
Leah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Julia: Okay, we'll get back on topic now. Okay. So many reviewers struggled with the show for various reasons. Variety included in Varieties review. They offered this quote, the back half of the series in part directed by Leanne Wallam and written by, oh, I looked up how to say her first name and I forgot.
Leah: Oh my gosh.
Julia: I'm a terrible person. Last name McKee. Okay. I apologize. I apologize, expand the story beyond the oppressive loop of Nick and Francis's relationship to show what her life looks like outside it. And even occasionally finds something more interesting to say about her fractured relationships with her mother, father Bobby, and her own mysteriously ailing body.
Julia: But then she inevitably ends up back with Nick and the air gets sucked back out of the room again. Mm-hmm. And quote. Mm-hmm. So I, cause I talking about representation on this show, do you think the show reinforces stereotypes about love and relationships and if show if, show if so, which ones and how?
Julia: Yeah.
Leah: I think that ultimately, while this show is trying to tell a story about non-monogamy, what it's doing is enforcing the primacy of monogamy. Mm-hmm. And saying, these are the only relationships that can work because. Every version of non-monogamy that's depicted is deeply dysfunctional. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah.
Julia: It's almost like you have to be monogamous. Even if it's dysfunctional, get over it. Mm.
Leah: You know, that's the right way to do it. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah. And that just feels so not okay. Mm-hmm.
Leah: Like, I mean, I guess I, I'm going to, you ready? Mm-hmm. Hold onto your hat. I'm about to appreciate something. I, I kind of appreciate the depictions of the female female relationships that there is, there is something about the Bobby Melissa pairing that works.
Leah: Mm-hmm. I mean, honestly, they're so much better suited for each other than any other pairing. Um, So there's something there that I find interesting, but like you said, almost the entirety of that relationship happens off screen. So it's hard to to know are we actually hearing the truth or are we just hearing Bobby's idealized version of the truth?
Leah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and I appreciate that Bobby and Lauren, is that her name? I just totally lost her name. Melissa? Francis. Francis.
Julia: I was like new to one.
Leah: My God, my God. Um, I appreciate that Bobby and Francis are able to have a relationship that moves. From romance to friendship, to romance to friendship, because there are so many relationships that are able to make that transition and mm-hmm.
Leah: And sort of move across the spectrum. And I think a lot of people don't believe that that's possible. Right. And it is
Julia: very much so. Yeah. Yeah. Some, you know, some of my strongest friendships were born out of, um, failed romance.
Leah: Yeah. I mean, in the, so I live in a, or I. Am in a sex positive community here in Portland.
Leah: So almost all of my friends are non-monogamous. Um, and I have a bunch of friends who, when we happen to be in a sexy space together and the moment is right and the energy is there, we'll play and then the next day we're just friends and it's just like normal and you know, you don't have to worry
Julia: about it.
Julia: Yeah. So, which is nice I think, cuz where I am, there's still this sort of like
Julia: closed offness about the idea of being non-monogamous. Mm-hmm. And. Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna risk it. Okay. Um, you know, a few months ago a friend was like, Hey, we're gonna do this thing, blah, blah. And I was like, yeah, totally down. And then plans changed and it just turned to like dinner and drinks downtown and it's, you know, a bunch of moms with school-aged children.
Julia: And the last time that, you know, that was a, an outing event, it turned into like, oh, all of you are using this as an excuse to like, be lesbians for a night. And then like, nothing like, and just kind of gross about it and like, that's not my vibe. Mm-hmm. And, you know, it'd be different if like, you, it'd be, it'd be different if it was sex positive, but it's not.
Julia: Yeah. It's like we're out, if it's sl we're wild. We don't have the kids and we don't have a husband, so let's woo. Kind of stuff. And I just feel like that's so juvenile. Juvenile in terms of like development when it comes to your, to one's sexuality. Like I'm not saying I'm perfect, I still have a lot of learning to do.
Julia: I grew up in a fairly conservative religious home. Yeah. There was a guy selling purity rings in the lobby every year. Um, but, but at the same time, I feel like I'm not going to participate in that because then tomorrow it's gonna turn into like, it's gonna fuel the rumor mill and it's gonna be this thing and we're gonna be a episode of Real Housewives rather than like embarking on strengthening our
Leah: relationships.
Leah: Yeah. Things that happen sort of under the cover of Darkness mm-hmm. Under the influence of alcohol. Mm-hmm. They often turn not great. Yeah. And things that happen out in the open where everybody says, yes, this is what I'm doing. I. Game on. Mm-hmm. Though, not to say that they never get messy. Oh, things get messy, but, but human emotions, yeah.
Leah: It's a different kind of messy, and it's, it's far less destructive, I
Julia: think. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like for me, that's what I'd prefer anyway. Just less destruction and people who are more willing to have open and honest conversations about where they are and what they want. Like that kind of stuff. Yeah.
Julia: That's the person I am. I was telling a friend of mine, I was like, you know, I like to, I like to make out. Like that's my vibe. Like yeah, this thing is the best part. And if you've got a scruffy beard, even better. Like, thank you. But I'm also very clear every time where it's like, this is literally all that's gonna happen.
Julia: Like this is what I want from you. And if that's not what you want, if you're gonna want more, then you're gonna have to go somewhere else. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, 90% of the time it. It's fine, but I'm like, it's, I'm not, and it's not gonna, I'm, and I'm, I'll be like, and I'm telling you, this is not gonna turn into a situation where I'm just like, okay, you've broken me down.
Julia: Yeah. Let's go further. This is very much like, we are kissing, we are only kissing and that's what I want tonight.
Leah: Thanks. Yeah. Awesome. Having those boundaries up is amazing because then people can opt in or opt out. Mm-hmm. People can opt in and say, yes, I am down for just kissing. Or people can be like, you know what?
Leah: I really wanna get laid tonight, so I'm gonna find somebody else who I can do that with. And then nobody's boundaries have to get busted.
Julia: Exactly. Because I'm too old for my boundaries to get busted at this point. Like, um, do you have any final thoughts on the show before we.
Leah: Please don't make me watch it again.
Julia: I will not. I will not. And again, I am, I really do appreciate that your willingness to still participate in this conversation. Yeah,
Leah: I mean, I, I, as much as I didn't like it, I'm still glad I watched it. Mm-hmm. And I'm very glad that we're having this conversation, so, yeah. Uh, I'm whining, but I'm not, I'm not really upset.
Leah: Yeah. Yeah. I
Julia: appreciate it. One of the things that I found very interesting about the screen adaptation was how clear it is that Melissa and Nick have a pretty solid financial foundation and Bobby and Francis's circumstances are due to being university students. Also, we didn't even touch on the fact that Francis's dad clearly is supporting her, which is so hilarious in the sense, or it's not hilarious, but it's just one of those things that they sort of brought, they showed it, but it wasn't.
Julia: It was still one of those smaller storylines that could have probably been explored more. Whereas in the book, it is very clear that Francis is pretty firm in her beliefs about injustice and equity and finding excessive wealth, or even wealth in general, a waste. Hmm. So I thought the removal of that, granted it's been a handful of years since I've read the book, but I was reading reviews of the book.
Julia: I was like, oh yeah, I do remember her kind of being this person who was constantly like, they have money, they're wealthy. What are we doing? Like this is B, you know, kind of more of a. Social justice attitude. Mm-hmm. Whereas in the show, that's not her. Mm-hmm. Yeah. At all. Yeah. Leah, thank you so much for coming back to the show.
Julia: Can you tell our friends at home where they can find you if they wanna keep up with you?
Leah: Absolutely. So you can find me@leahcarey.com. That's l e a h c A r E y.com. All of the information about coaching is there. I work with individuals and couples. Um, and if you wanna listen to my podcast, good Girls Talk About Sex, you can find that on your favorite podcast player or at Good Girls Talk.
Leah: And that show is me interviewing everyday women, uh, more specifically people who are brought up as little girls plus transgender women, um, about their sex lives. So it's a non-expert show. It's all just getting into the good stuff and Nice. Thank you so much for having me.
Julia: I'm so glad you came back. And friends, we're gonna link everything in the show notes, so there's no excuse for you to not check out Leah's website for not free to not check out our podcast and all the things.
Julia: And yeah,
Julia: pop culture Makes me jealous, is written, edited, and produced by me, Julia Washington. And I am fueled by the incredible support system of women who allow me to run ideas, cry, melt down whenever I feel overwhelmed. I also wanna do a big shout out to our Patreon community. Thank you for your continued support.
Julia: It brings me great joy to bring you quality content, and monthly get togethers. Thanks for tuning in y'all. Until next time.
Looking for more?