Breakfast Club | 2
Show Notes:
Host Julia Washington and guest Maggie Frank- Hsu talk about Breakfast Club.
Breakfast Club was released February 15, 1985, and was written and directed by John Hughes. Starring Emilio Esteves, Molly Ringwald, Judd Nelson, Ally Sheedy, and Anthony Michael Hall, this movie is one that is listed as one of John Hughes greatest films.
We get into the weeds on this film, talking about gender politics, Molly Ringwald's response 30 years later, and whether or not there's any value in watching this movie today.
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The Show: Pop Culture Makes Me Jealous
The Host: Julia Washington
The Guest: Maggie Frank-Hsu
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Transcript:
Julia: Hey friends, this is pop culture makes me jealous where we discuss pop culture through the lens of race or gender. And sometimes both. I'm your host, Julia Washington. And on today's show. My guest Maggie Frank-Hsu is here and we will be talking about the 1980s classic breakfast club.
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Breakfast club was released February 15th, 1985, and was written and directed by John Hughes. Starring Emilio Estefan is Molly Ringwald, Judd Nelson, Allie Sheedy, and Anthony Michael Hall. This movie is one that is listed as John Hughes, greatest films, but before we dive into our discussion, let me introduce you to my guests.
Maggie, Frank Shu is an author and a book coach who helps first-time authors pinpoint their biggest ideas and turn them into published books. She has always been a writer and started her career in journalism, earning a master's degree from the Columbia school of journalism in New York and working for national magazines like gourmet, Martha Stewart, and ESPN.
The magazine Maggie's goals in her life and work is to help as many people as possible. Tell their story. She's published her first. Be about something to help people. Who've always wanted to write a book, but don't know where to start. You can get her first chapter. Be about something for free on her website and friends.
We're going to link in the show notes for you so you can get to it easily. If you're interested. Welcome to the show, Maggie. Wow.
Maggie: Thank you so much, Julia. I'm excited. You're
Julia: here. And as I was getting to know you a little bit better, I realized we have a lot of things in common, um, uh, British television love for Denzel Washington.
Oh my God. How
Maggie: do you even know that about me? I'm obsessed. That was my first crush.
Julia: Uh, I love that we used to joke and be like, oh, we think Denzel's a long lost family member.
Maggie: God. I mean, he, anyway, I mean, we should do. Yeah. And did you see any way? I don't know. Did you, do you follow, um, BB Robinson? She does like thirsty Thursdays.
Thursday was Denzel. I watched it anyway. I'm a big Denzel fan. That's true.
Julia: Okay. Friends, we're going to do a quick summary of breakfast club because in case it's been a while, since you've seen this movie five high school students from different social status are stuck doing Saturday morning detention, each suffering their own misunderstood identities, the group battles, the power, hungry principle, all the while, opening up and sharing what it's like to be, who they are beyond perception at the time of its release.
The Hollywood reporter had this to say the breakfast club deserves credit for venturing beyond the formulaic timid patterns of most youth movies. Writer director John Hughes, who has demonstrated a blazing satirical sense of middle America and past work provide some savvy, social and personal insights in the film.
So I want to start at the very beginning. What is it about this movie that you love
Maggie: when you said you wanted to do breakfast? Sub? That was, I really wanted to be a guest because it was sort of a formative movie for me. Um, I saw it, uh, when I was seven on VHS and at a friend's house. And, um, I cannot believe I watched it that young, but it had a huge impact on me.
Um, but I would say so as the things I love about this movie, even now and back then as well, even when I was seven, you know, the kind of, um, realness around like adults as the enemy. So like the principal in the movie is just so out of touch. And even when he like. Mean and cruel. And that is definitely the way that kids saw teachers back then, um, is just sort of like we have our own lives and then like, we have to do what they say, but they really don't know us.
And that all like, felt like really, um, relevant and felt like really true back then. And even now, like I look at that movie and I don't know that there are a lot of other directors that captured that so well. Um, I also love, um, and a couple, there's a couple of things. So one is that I love that. Like his take on class, I know we're going to talk about how homogenous this movie is in terms of race and even gender, but, you know, he's taken class, you know, the popular kids in his movies are always rich.
And I feel like that's a really great insight, you know, like a lot of other movies, um, the popular kids are cool. Like why are they cool in the, in his movies? They're cool because they have like the right clothes, the right cars. And they have all those things because they have money. And I think that.
Real, you know, compared to like a lot of other kind of team fair. Um, yeah, so, I mean, there's other things too, but like I think those things are like still really stand out for me. It was like a re more real take on life.
Julia: He's been credited as being sort of the one who creates this space for teens. To be teens and seen as teens, you know, on film.
And I forgot. So I listened to Rob Lowe's the stories. I only tell my friends, which came out in 2011. I did audio book because he read it himself. And I was like, okay, I want to listen to Rob, talk to me for eight hours. Yes, please. Um, and it's really interesting. I forgot about the outsiders and Rob Lowe brings up how the outsiders was really big and sort of breaking down that hole.
You know, teens playing teens, they weren't. Teenager, but they, well, he was, but like Emilio and, and, um, Patrick Swayze and Tom cruise were all kind of in their early twenties, but still they were, they were young and, you know, not 30 year olds playing
Maggie: in Greece or
Julia: something, or even I watched the birdcage the other day and Calista Flockhart is playing a 19 year old.
And in reality, she was like 30 or something like that.
Maggie: Yeah. That's yeah. That's very interesting. Yeah, that definitely feels real. And I mean, like, you know, they feel young, but like, it's not just like how they look. It's also, um, just their concerns and like what they're thinking about, like the click, you know, sort of like.
I mean when we get into it, like, they'll talk more about it, but like how they're all coming from these different clicks and school or these, this to hierarchy where Molly Ringwald character is at the top and also familial of as his character. Cause he's a jock and then everybody else kind of falls underneath that.
And that is extremely like, that is so totally what you're obsessed with when you're a teenager. I mean, I'm sure some people had, you know, alternate experiences of high school, but that was my exact experience was that you were in your group and you didn't really come outside of your group. And I think actually what I love about this movie is that you do like, it is the other way it's realistic is like, there were like a few like moments in high school where let's say you and like some person from another group.
We're like stuck together at like something like an event at another school. And it's just somebody you would never talk to, but it's the only person, you know? And so you start talking to them and you're like, oh, this person is actually like a whole human being, like not just Ms. Popular or not just Ms.
Jock or whatever. And then when you go back to school, like you never talk to them again, you know? Cause now you have like, you know what I mean? And so like, I feel like that's another. It's it's their ages and how they look in the movie, but it's also like what they are obsessed with and like the way they think about their lives.
It's very realistic.
Julia: Claire very clearly is that there's that point in the movie where Claire's barely like, realistic about it. Like you think we're all going to talk to each other on Monday? Probably not. Right. And then the rest of the group's kind of like, oh, stop being, uh, you know, they straight up call her a bitch about it and like all these things.
And she's like, I'm not wrong. Like Andy, you know, I'm right. You think you're going to talk to, I forget what Anthony, Michael Hall's character's name is Brian. You think you're talking to Brian. If he comes up and says hi to, you know, you're going to say hi, and then he's going to walk away and then you're going to shred them.
So you get your street cred back. And that just felt so honest.
Maggie: Yeah. Although then it's all punctured, because I think like what the movie says at the very end and I noticed this because I just watched it the last five minutes. But literally the last five minutes is when they couple up and like, so then the idea is that they are going to, they are going to break down this social structure at school because Claire's dating bender and, um, Andy's be dating Allie, she, these character.
And so I feel like they were, they're so honest and they have this great, like, play, like they're in a play like scenes from a play kind of dialogue. And then at the end, it sort of. The fantasy. I'm not sure how I feel about that.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. We can dive into that in a little bit. John he's as often praised as a writer director who changed the course of the teenage narrative and films, as we mentioned, his movie centered around teen themes, from a teen perspective, he layers in his own assault for adolescents.
While considering the modern day teen experience in breakfast club, he brings together five kids from varying social sex who learn and grow from each other. But we never know if come Monday, they remain in their newly discovered state of understanding the chemistry between the cast is crucial to the success of the characters.
There are a few articles circulating that include the fun fact that Nicholas cage and John Cusack were considered for the rules before hiring Judd Nelson. So I want to talk about performance. This movie essentially creates it's not the main creation of the brat pack, but they become affiliated with the brat pack of the 1980s.
And as we mentioned a little bit ago, they kind of couple up with the end, but all that to say, do you think the movie still would have worked if there was a Nicholas cage or a John Cusack had been cast in that role of bender? Because I can't picture personally picture John or not. John Hughes, John Cusack is bender.
He doesn't seem like he has the cruel, cruel vibe that pending.
Maggie: Yeah, no, not at all. I can't. I mean, and if you think about like his other, I mean, I'm a pretty big fan. I haven't watched everything he's ever done, but like his other movies, like, even from that time period, he's always playing like, well, say anything and he's always like very romantic.
I feel like Jen Nelson, this is what I really remember from when I was seven as well, is like the way that his nose flares, like his nostrils flare when he gets really mean and nasty. Like, you know, I just, I think like Nicholas cage probably would've had a better chance, but also I think, and I, yeah, I dunno.
What do you think about Nicholas cage? I, you know,
Julia: he's hit or miss for me. Like I love doing gone in 60 seconds. There's like a handful of movies that I love him. And, and I always forget he's part of the Coppola family, but he just has this sort of Keanu vibe to me. But like if Keanu was sinister,
Maggie: what was the movie where he played a valley girl?
Yeah. It's very, he's very, uh, you know, like bill and Ted kind of, I mean, if they're from different areas, but yeah, I don't know. I'm not like, I think. Maybe he seems like off because he does tend to like dominate in some of the movies that he's in and be like the center. And, uh, and this works better, I think because all of them, although benders, like I feel like bender and Claire kind of compete for being the main character in the movie.
And I think, but I think like Jen Nelson does have a way of. You know, being in the ensemble and not taking notes.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. He, and he definitely has a lot of, some of the crucial scenes to where, and I was watching very closely this time and I still can't remember after they're wandering the halls, I'm still looking at this going, why did they leave the library?
I can't altogether. I just can't for whatever reason, keep that in my head
Maggie: when they run, when they almost get caught, because they go to the vendor's locker and he gets his weed. Oh, that's
Julia: right. Cause he shoves it in, um, Anthony, Michael Hall's pants. Um, yeah, we can talk about favorite character now actually, because for all of Bender's issues that we'll get into in a little bit, because he really is.
He really, this time around made me a little bit more uncomfortable than in previous times I've watched it. Um, they all have a really. Like, they all had to be who they are in order for this to work in my mind. And if you didn't have, if bender was dialed back in any way, shape or form, I don't know if it would have worked, but it's still, he feels icky sometimes.
I don't know, like complicated
Maggie: he is. If he, I think like, um, what I was going to say a couple of things about like, in terms of, I don't know if I have a favorite character, actually, I feel like what I noticed in this viewing the Mo like watching it a couple of days ago is that the bonding that happens between them is really well done.
Like, it's not like. Oh, like in one scene, it's like every scene, like a little more kind of like even cause it's really after lunch that they start talking and really getting to know each other, but like, even like, there's a part where they early on, where they all fall asleep and then what's the principal's name.
Forget his name, his first name's Dick. I know that. But when he comes in and they've already, there's also like all the things that kind of have to happen. So. Um, the library door is open at first, but then vendor breaks the door so that it has to stay shut. And, um, so that kind of keeps, that gets them a little bit more bonded because they don't tattletale on vendor.
Like they don't know, you know, they kind of, this is another thing that's so realistic about high school life is like, they're all fighting. And then when the adult comes in, they all close rights and they're like, all, you know, that none of them are going to tell the adult what happened. And then there's another scene early on where, um, they're all FA they're all asleep.
Cause they're so bored, which is another thing, like not having any electronics or any kind of, you know, nothing is on them really besides like paper, they don't even read any books in the library or if they kind of look at magazines sometimes, but, um, they get so bored and they fall asleep and then the principal comes in and he's like, who has to use the laboratory?
And they all raise their hands without opening their eyes, you know? And like that just cracked me up so much. It's just like little things that make them like more and more like together against the world. And I really love that. I feel like. Yeah, I don't, if I had to pick a favorite character, I would say, Andy, actually I've always, I mean, I had a big crush on him, but I also, I also think like Emilio SOS, his performance is really under sung because like he has to be like, so like such a straight arrow and then like, you know, I mean, Jen, Nelson's got like all this sort of scenery chewing stuff to do.
And then the geek is like geeky and he kind of has to like, hold this very like boring middle ground. And I feel like he's actually pretty interesting and does a good job. So
Julia: yeah. Yeah. There's um, a couple of scenes that kind of drove me crazy. Like I like I'm with you on the whole Andy thing. Like I definitely had a crush on Emilio has auntie it's just like, you're cute sport.
Oh, there. The idea that you can't do anything during detention. Like you're not allowed to study. You're not allowed to do like anything. And that's so mind-blowing to me. And I think that is this, like, this is like a thing in the eighties. I can't remember the nineties sometimes. I can't remember some details about the things, but I remember when I got detention we were allowed
Maggie: to do.
I mean, I actually like this principle. He is so sadistic. And that's another thing I really like about this movie is that. I mean, he is just like bender. Sometimes you feel a little sympathy for it. Never for the principal. I mean, he is just so like, he's just, doesn't think of kids as people. He's always yelling at them on your feet, you know?
And like, you know, he's so mean. And you know, when, what, yeah. When he locks bender in the closet, I feel like that turns to abuse. I mean, he's abusive several times, but, um, the whole thing and like they sh the first scene, they get to school at seven, I think. So the detention is like seven to four. That's crazy like hours.
You're going to have detention for people and like Claire cut class. I mean, maybe she cuts several times and that's why they they're fine, but this is like a really harsh punishment. So I feel like, yeah,
Julia: it seemed like a harsh enough punishment for, um, Anthony Michael Hall's character, because he brings.
A weapon to school.
Maggie: Yes. Really? For, for Andy either. I mean, when you find out finally, what Andy did, he basically assaulted. I mean, he could have been like criminally charged for what he did. So, um, it's very, it's such a strange, I mean, it makes, and then like, I mean, there's a lot of potholes in this movie.
Can't think too hard. Like in the whole second half of the movie, like the principal never comes back and it's because he's down in the basement talking to the janitor, but like it's a little bit thin of an idea that like, they're all gonna smoke pot together. Like that much pot for that long and not get caught.
Right.
Julia: Principal Vernon, Vernon. Yeah. And you see him with the janitor? I forget the janitor's name too, but he, you know, he knows, uh, Brian and they kind of ha and that's never, ever, he's a scene
Maggie: stealer. I love the Japanese. I didn't remember him. He's only got like two scenes and they're very memorable.
Julia: Definitely. But as to reads as a community on Instagram, highlighting what people in the city of Modesto, California are reading. If you want book recommendations, or if you live in the city of Modesto, follow Modesto reads and use the hashtag Modesto reads since it's released the world has changed a lot serious criticism of John whose work has been circulating since at least 2015, maybe even sooner, but it's become more publicly in the last handful of years.
And Molly Ringwald herself has written about her time and experience during this era in Ringwald. Now famous, I say, in the new Yorker, she specifically addresses the scene in which bender is under the table. He is hiding from the principal. Claire is because at this point he's been sent in exile and he snuck back.
That's why he's hiding her on the table for our friends at home, who may not remember why. There's a shot of this view under the table, which then cuts, declare appearing to kick bender while he's still hiding. Ringwald writes this what's more, as I can see now, bender sexually harasses Clara throughout the film.
When he's not sexualized her, he takes out his rage on her with vicious contempt, calling her pathetic, mocking her as Queenie it's rejection that inspires his vitriol. Claire acts dismissively toward him and in his pivotal scene near the end. She predicts that at school on Monday morning, even though the group has bonded things will return.
We mentioned this earlier returned socially to the status quo. Just bury your head in the sand and wait for your fucking prom bender yells. He never apologizes for any of it, but nevertheless, he gets the girl in the end. Which I actually kind of forgot about a little bit, but we'll dive into that right now.
And the article Ringwald shares an older actress is hired for the scene, but she and her mother are still embarrassed by it. So I want to talk about that scene a little bit and bender overall towards Claire, because it's a lot. So how do you think the representation of this relationship impacted you as a young person and then now as an adult?
Maggie: Yeah, it's a lot, I mean, the first, especially in the beginning, I mean, it's all it's bad all throughout, but I was watching this with my husband and he was like, this movie has not aged well, like he was really offended and I was too, but I was like gonna watch the whole thing. I mean, I think we would have turned it off, like, or he would have turned it off the one thing, and I remember not understand, so, and I don't know.
I've seen this movie several times, but I just have a really strong memory of the first time I watched it when I was seven and my neighbor's bedroom on her little VHS. And, um, you know, I remember when he was saying like torturing her about whether she was a Virgin. Right. And it comes up twice in the movie where they're all like, kind of really, really it's so inappropriate.
Like they're kind of asking, I mean, basically like accusing her of being a slut and approved at the same time. And like there's no other possibility. Like there's no other possible way for her to be. And she, it just never occurs to her to be like, you know, to like, kind of just not to, you know, not take it, you know?
I mean, she sort of seems like she buys into it all. So, I mean, I'm not blaming her. Yeah. I would say. Yeah. And also like, okay, so back to him, I mean, he's really unforgivable. I think like the only, I think it's judge Nelson's performance that kind of saves it. Like, because there's like a. Where, um, vendors making fun of Brian and like, is like, you know, protect, like kind of like doing like his impression of Brian's house, where it's like, Hey dad, Hey son.
And let's go fishing and stuff. And then he does his impression of his own house, which is like his dad beating him up. And then he shows everyone that he has a cigarette burn on his arm. And then he, when he runs, like, he gets really mad and then he like leaves the group and goes and sits on the stairs.
And he looks really, I mean, he looks like a kid they're like, he looks really pained and like, he doesn't understand what's going on. And so I kind of felt like, although I think that excuses nothing about his behavior, like I felt that the character was written a little bit. Um, like, you know, he's bad. He is vicious, but he's like written in a way where you can empathize with him a little bit.
Instead of like what I said about Vernon, who's just like always cruel, always sadistic. And there's really nothing redeeming about him, you know?
Julia: Yeah. I had a hard time with bender because the whole time he's just, so he's just antagonizing Claire and it's just so awkward and it's so uncomfortable and it just makes me like cringe and just feel for her.
And then, you know, in, well, I didn't the whole scene with him under the bench really bothered me, I thought, huh. That's interesting. I'm surprised that made it, um, into, you know, that sort of scenario made it into the movie just generally when you think about the eighties, but then a lot of stuff, it was like Porky's and all these other movies that came out.
Maggie: And when I read Molly, Molly Ringwald article too, it's like she does, um, in that new Yorker article, she does contextualize, like he wrote for national Lampoon. I mean, and I remember those movies from that time as well, like all like the national Lampoon movies, like the vacation movies, there's all kinds of weird stuff with.
Buxom sixteen-year-olds and there's, I mean, there's so many there's, um, Porky's is like that there's revenge of the nerds it's like that there's Fletch, like anything Chevy chase was in is pretty much like gross and weird caddy shack. Um, so, but yeah, go ahead. Yeah. And I, at your it's your turn, go ahead.
Julia: But it just, so I have this complicated relationship, because like you say, judge Nelson's performance is so good. So on the one hand, you're just like, this is a terrible human. And I feel like you're representative of all of this sort of not to completely generalized, but you know, you can kind of draw a line with some of the terrible people that you know, who are not terrible people.
Some of the people that we've seen come to existence who behave in such horrific ways, and then you can kind of see similarities between them and bender. And then that empathetic tone of like, you know, he does come from a really bad house and he does have, literally, nobody is rooting for him. They literally do not care if he survives, like the principal clearly states like you're going to end up in jail.
It's fine. Nobody cares. And even early on, Andy says like, you're nothing, nobody cares about you. So he's constantly getting that affirmation that he doesn't matter her, but also he channels it in a way where he just takes it in and then gives it right back out. And he's zeroed in on Claire for this particular movie.
And I just had a really hard time with that because I wanted somebody, I just wanted him to be like, I want an adult to come to him and say like, Hey man, you're not trash. You could potentially have a future if you like wanted to, you're not trash. And that just isn't going to happen for him. That just didn't happen for him.
And then in the end, when Claire does come to him, After intriguing, like garbage the whole time. And they ended up like having that moment in the closet where I was just like, you know, 20 years ago it was like, so sweet. Now I'm like, girl, come on, do we need to do this? Like this, this isn't, I don't like this anymore.
And then, um, he even pulled the card of like, wouldn't it be great to drive your parents crazy to bring me home? Right. Like yes and no, I'm conflicted.
Maggie: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that, um, and she says this in the article too, and I totally felt this where she said like, in real life, Molly Ringwald, like it was only been like 10 years ago.
Like, so when she was well into her thirties where she stopped thinking that bad boys were more interesting than nice men, you know, she said something like that. And that's definitely resonated with me. Like I have. I've noticed. I mean, I noticed that pattern in my early dating life until I got therapy, but I think like a lot of, I mean, it wasn't because of this movie, like there was so much in the air about like, you know, men and PR pursuit and like how men show you that they, like you are lucky and are interested in you.
And like, you know, also this is touched on in the movie where it's like, he talks about her using sex as a weapon. And I feel like for me, it was kind of gross because I know in real life, like he was 25 and she was 16 or 15, so that's really gross. But he had this like conversation or like, you know, he's berating her and telling her that she uses it to get respect or to, you know, and, um, yeah, I think that there's no question that if you.
You know, if I was watching this as a teen, I wouldn't have enough of a critical eye to where, or like, I think you need, like teens need to watch this movie with adults that, I mean, no teens are gonna want to watch any movies with adults, but I think, you know, I don't know that the other thing I wanted to bring up was, um, that it's sort of like, you know, what, one thing that kind of came to mind was like, we see all this stuff of Molly Ringwald kind of like wringing her hands and thinking like, what, what have I contributed to the culture?
And so I Googled and I wanted to see, like, if Jen Nelson had ever said how he felt about this role now, and he, I found the first result I found, I didn't like, look that hard, but he had done an interview in 2019 with like the local newspaper in Wilmington, North Carolina. So like, not like, you know, the new Yorker, but, um, he, cause he was going to do a play there anyway.
They asked him about it and he was like, Basically like it was horrible response. Like he used his male privilege where he was just kinda like, well, I don't see what Molly sees and it's classic and you can't really hold an old movie to like modern standards. And that was what he said. I don't agree with Molly.
He said, and like, I kind of, I, that really made me so disappointed because 2019 as well after me too. And like, I feel like so many people in positions of privilege do this, like white people do this all the time also where it's like black people or people of color are like, you know, bring something up and then a white person's like, well, I don't, I don't understand what, you know, I don't get it like that doesn't offend me.
And it was like, okay, well, you know, and I kind of heard the same thing and his response was like, oh, well, you know, that doesn't bother me. And I'm proud of it. And it's like, okay, well, but you're the man you're. I guess it's like your privilege, you know, leaning on your privilege to do that and not to really interrogate it at all.
Julia: And it's interesting too, because then again, the burden is on Molly Ringwald to justify it and to clarify it and to be in it. And he's not like you, that's a, that's an, I love that you went down that road because now I'm thinking, gosh, I don't know if anyone, other than Molly Ringwald has spoken about their time working with John Houston.
Maggie: I thought it was weird in the new Yorker that she didn't interview the other cast members. Like, did they, did she ask them? And they said no. Or like, they just didn't because she interviewed it was anyway. So, but yeah, I felt like if any, I mean, I don't think Jen Nelson himself is like, needs to be held accountable.
I mean, it's he playing a character, not held accountable is as if it was real life, but kind of like she's holding herself accountable, like. What have I contributed to the culture by participating in this and then like, no one else in the movie feels like they need to say anything. I don't know. That was weird to me.
Julia: Yeah. I agree. And you bring up a really good point there, because again, we're just putting that burden on this woman who is a teenager who is trying to get a, you know, who was an acting to have the whole sole responsibility of explaining a way and not explaining the way, but you know, the burden of John Hughes, Canon, which isn't fair.
And granted, you know, he was, she's been known, she's been called his muse and, you know, he won, he's always, he always wanted her to, for the breakfast club. And then they kind of used her in 16 candles as sort of a, like a test run, if you will, and all of these things, but still, you know, it's, you have it's, there's so many characters that exist that are like bender.
That there has to be, you know, you have to, as an actor and I've talked about this on the show in other episodes, like I was cast as, and for people who are new to the show, I'm biracial. I have a black parent and a white parent, well, Italian, but whatever. Um, and so when I was doing theater, I got cast as a, the mean white lady who yelled at Rosa parks on the bus and it messed with my head.
And it was just really, really hard to continue to play that role. Granted, we didn't have a long run of the show. We only did three shows and then we did a school tour, but rehearsal time, all of it. So now, like I feel whenever anybody brings it up and. I'm publicly out and proud as a biracial woman, I guess you could say when people bring it up, you know, it's a conversation I'm willing to engage them with it.
You engage in with them. And it was just like, this is how it affected me playing that role. So let's, you know, if it affected you, let's talk about it. And I'm like nobody in comparison to Jeff Nelson. So I find it interesting when actors who play sort of, you know, these problematic characters are unwilling to discuss it.
Even like Keith Stanfield who played the guy and, um, Judas in the black Messiah, which is a great film. He even talks about how hard it was to play the character. Um, and it just, how much it, how difficult it was at the end of shooting. And, and he really got into a deep dark place. So, so it's hard for me.
Like I think that. You ha I don't know. You almost have to examine your participation in what's happening, especially when it's a pop culture thing, because, and I don't know if they didn't realize that breakfast club would be huge and John Hughes would have the impact of pop culture and the way that he has at the time.
But I think taking a little responsibility in that is really important because you've just influenced literally three generations,
Maggie: but he absolutely doesn't have to. I mean, that's male privilege. It's white male privilege. I mean, he doesn't have to. I mean, and he's not, I mean, he sort of says, like he said something, you should look it up, but he said something like, we all live in the shadow of John Hughes, almost like it was really not up to me.
You're kind of, but like, yeah, I feel like. He doesn't have to, he didn't doesn't feel like he has to he's like that was then and yeah, maybe you should look at the quote because then he says like, you know, where the framers of the constitution supposed to know and it's like, yeah, kinda. They weren't supposed to know that they're on stolen land.
And I mean, like, that's kind of like a really over-simplistic write-off and a weird comparison to make, you know, that's kinda what he said, just nothing, but I feel like white men and, you know, men get up and keep anyone in a position of privilege, gets away with stuff like that all the time. Um, and I also wanted, there was something else I wanted to say about, well, two other things.
One was the other thing that endears him. Cause we're making. I just want to point out that like he is really, um, like you do feel kind of empathy with them because like when they, when they sneak out of the library to go get his weed and they're about to get caught by Vernon and what does he do? He tells them, you all go that way and I'm to kind of, he lures Vernon away and he's the only one that gets in trouble and he does that for them.
And like, I feel like, you know, that's the moment where you're like, oh, this guy is like, I don't, I don't have like a good sense of like, why does he do that for them? Like, they could have all gotten in trouble. He CA he protects them all. And then Vernon gets so mad at him because he runs to the gym and he's like shooting hoops and stuff.
And then he gets, he locks him in the closet, which is so abusive. Vernon's worse. I think that helps with like having empathy for bender. And then he says all these things and he says, you know, I'm going to find you in five years and I'm going to beat the shit out of you. I mean, he, actually, the principal actually says that to him and the look on his face again, I feel like his performance is so good.
Cause like the look on his face, he turns immediately into like, he really looks 15. He really looks scared. He really looks like a child. He really looks like he's being abused and it's really painful to watch. So I think like looking at his performance as a commentary about like, you know, this cliche like hurt people, hurt people like that.
He is always being abused. And what you said earlier, I feel like then you can have more. You just have like, I don't know, you can't just be. Fuck that guy and write them off completely. Well,
Julia: all the principles, that's what the principals do. That's what the teachers, that's what everybody else did. And he showed you that he is sort of saveable if you will, which I'd like to think that his relationship with Claire does go beyond Saturday and he does get a little redemption.
It does better with his life.
Maggie: I don't think so. I mean the other, oh, and one other thing I wanted to say, well, yeah, I don't know. I mean, this might be too much, but I was, I was Googling or I was looking at Emilio Estevez IMDV page because I was like, you know, he was in young guns. I forgot how popular he was in the eighties.
And, um, he was in this other movie that I saw when I was like 10, which was also inappropriate. Um, and it, I saw it on video and it was called stakeout and it was, he, him and Richard Dreyfus were the stars. And, um, have you ever seen it, have you heard it take out? So I only saw Richard Dreyfus. I have a very sketchy, but you don't want to, this movie is like the definition of not aging.
Well, so the premise of this movie. That there are two cops, their partners are truck drivers in a million, less of us. And they are, there's a really bad criminal who's on the lamb or something. And they stake out the criminal, the criminals girlfriend's apartment. And they can kind of see through her blinds cause they're like in an abandoned building across the street.
And so they're basically stalking this woman without her knowledge as police officers, which is like the thin, you know, like premise of like why they're allowed to do this, but they stock her and they like see her on dress and they. Like in, you know, I mean, she has her windows open, so, you know, you can look in, but anyways, but that whole idea of that movie now is so horrified.
Like they sexualize her and one of them ends up dating her without telling her that they're also staking her out. I don't remember what happens, but I do remember, like, I just think like now for that to be the premise of a major motion picture, even if it was probably like critically panned or whatever, but like for that movie to even get made, like there was definitely different mores back.
But, you know, I, yeah. For
Julia: what it's worth. Yeah. Rob Lowe talks a lot about that in his book. Um, it was actually really a really interesting read because he does kind of, you got the sense cause he and Emilio and all these guys are all hanging out in Malibu together, living their best life in the eighties.
Um, and you really get the sense from the book that he was, um, a little reserved in some of his storytelling. Like there's more to the story than what he's sharing. So now I'm just like, please have some, please have written the true story that we will get at some point in life, like when everyone's dead or something, because I'm dying to know.
Cause when he talks about St Elmo's fire, which came out the same year and then always blows my mind because Allie Sheedy is in it as well, but they're playing young adult and then, you know, six months earlier, whenever the release was like school, so whatever you want to there, but. What was I going with this?
Oh, like Bravo was talking about how everyone's sort of like coupled up, but he was very polite in the way that he talks about people sort of bonding together and he made it, he did make it sound like it really was innocent, but it was sort of implied that it wasn't. Okay. So now I'm just like, what's the real story.
Can we get an E Hollywood behind the movie for breakfast club or, um, St. Elmo's fireplace. We have talked about how we were booked probably a little too young to watch this movie at the time, but when we saw it. Last night when I was sitting down to watch it, I said to my son, oh, you want to watch this with me?
Have you seen it before? Cause you know, he's in high school now he's a senior and I'm thinking we can have actual conversations about things and I'm like, this is probably bad. And we can really dissect those things. His mom I've already seen it. I'm like, what are you talking about? You've already seen it.
And he's like, yeah, I think a couple of times, the first time was with you. What do you mean the first time you saw this movie was with me and he's like, yeah, I remember it's so-and-so's house. You guys put it on. And I was like,
this is pre pandemic. So I'm hoping he was a freshman in high school when we, when this happened, because I don't recall. And the friend's mom was also at the house and we were like, let's have a movie night, like let's make dinner and have a movie night. Cause we had all been hanging out during the day extended into the night.
The only rated R movie, this woman watches is the breakfast club. And I have to also add, she is very deeply rooted in her religion. She is very much involved in her church. She does not normally watch rated R movies. And however long ago it was, I wasn't thinking it didn't click. Right. And then now I'm watching this movie and I'm like, I can't believe that this is the movie that she's like, this is the only watch I love this.
It's so funny to me because even like I sent you, so he it's 20 whatever. So he was a freshman. I was probably 2019. So, you know, we're starting to make those conversations, get those conversations. Maybe it was the fall of 2018. But the point is, is, you know, we were just starting to have those conversations about John Hughes and his cannon and the problems with it and et cetera.
And here I am last night thinking my son's never seen this movie before, but yet he reminded me of this experience that I probably should know a lot about.
Maggie: So you don't remember like talking to him about being first of all, before I asked that, like, this woman has pretty good taste, honestly, because I feel like, yeah, I feel like I should hate this movie more, but I think it's because the dialogue is really good.
The dialogue of this movie is, and the performances. It's good, man. It's just fun. It's interesting. It's not like, it's not like the other movies either. I mean, I think it's not like pretty in pink. It's not like sweet 16 candles, but I mean pretty in pink anyway, they all have their, their things. But the dialogue is so like, I love plays.
I love plays before people. There's a few, like, you know, stage plays that are for people in they're all, you know, like, uh, who's afraid of Virginia Wolf or something like that. It's got like that same, well, there's five people in this, but it's got that same, the same, like, you know, people bouncing off of each other and like really getting energy from each other.
And I feel like that. That's why it's hard to just throw this away, even though there are so many problems with it, there's so many problems, but my question is gonna be, so you don't remember, like you sat in there, watch them, like they say so many bad things, sex things, bad, bad sex things like, and then that whole scene with her panties, like what, you know, one of the things I was thinking too, sorry, I'm literally going up is they have the scene where benders under the table and there's this full on crotch shot.
And it's supposed to be Molly Ringwald, you know, ass and, you know, Volvo in underwear, like covered in underwear, but still right there, like full screen. And like, you know, she says in the new Yorker article that they had to hire someone over 18 to do that. But like didn't anyone think about the fact that like, it was illegal for them to actually show what they were trying to sh like it would have, if they had put her actual crotch on the screen, that would have been illegal.
Like didn't anyone think about how like, Inappropriate. I don't know to me. Yeah. They, but I also think they're trying to like, push, like if you look at teen stuff, like I was thinking about euphoria, which I know. Um, but my, but I do feel like, you know, they're in euphoria, like, it sounds like the teen characters are like really like provocative.
And I think they were trying to be provocative. You know? I don't, I don't think they necessarily thought all teens acted like this. Well, anyway, I don't remember seeing it with him. So you don't remember like discussing what was said
Julia: after brought it up. Then the memory came back of us being in the apartment and sitting around the room.
But I don't remember having a conversation after the fact. That's not, that's not my style, so we must have, I just don't recall it because apparently I'm not good at remembering things. Um, but it was that moment of like, gosh, I wish that I had been more. I think at the time I was more about the bonding moment between the four of us, because we'd all known each other.
Like I had known these people since, before my child was born. We didn't really have a lot of opportunity to like create memories, like the four of us together. Cause it's like, you know, me and the friend and me and her mom or me and my kid there, wasn't really a whole lot of chances for us to be like a cohesive quad, um, doing things and creating memories together.
So I think I was caught up in the moment of like, we're making pizza, we're gonna have P um, movie night and do this like very family oriented thing. The four of us.
Maggie: Well, I'm not accusing you of anything now that I watch, because like when I watched it the other night, I was like, geez. I mean, it was shocking.
Some of it was shocking to me still as a 41 year old woman. So I just felt like who first encountered this movie when I was seven. So I just felt like, wow. Yeah. It's, it's not like. It's been so many years since it was made and it doesn't feel like, yeah.
Julia: Yeah. John Hughes has that about his style too though.
Like, even though there's like, like I'm never gonna, I'm never gonna understand locker room showers in high school movies because that's not part of my high school experience, but you know, outside of those weird things, for the most part, he CA he totally, I think nails it on the head. And I think that context of, you know, Molly Ringwald writing the article, brought context back to a generation or brought context to a generation who didn't exist at the time to remind them, we didn't have stuff like this when we were your age.
Like you have it now we did not have it then. And I think that's so important because when you kind of go back to that. So I struggle with the idea of just looking at everything through a modern lens and that's it cut and dry black and white. There's no wiggle room. 'cause you ha like there's a reason why these things started existing.
There's a reason why, you know, they were innovative at the time. I cannot tell you how many articles that were printed at the time critic reviews that would praise, Hughes and say, this is this is it like, he nailed getting that high school nuances, the teen angst, all of it. He nailed it. And there really wasn't a whole lot to compare it to.
Now, when you pull up articles of teen movies or whatever, there's tons of stuff to reference to, and whether or not it's good or bad or indifferent. And, you know, we forget 30 something years ago that, well, I guess it's more than it was probably closer to 40 years ago, not as close, but almost it didn't happen then.
And, and it's easy for my son's generation to not know that because our, you know, our. What are their parents do doing, trying to survive. They don't have time to like, be obsessed with entertainment or know the history of entertainment or be in touch with those things anymore. So that's part of the reason why it was like when we pull movie reviews, we have to pull from the era.
So that way we bring that context back because it's easy to get sucked in. Like the whole time I'm watching it last night. I'm like, this feels icky, but the payoff of the end of the film still feels good. Right? Like you still get either still the pay off, there's still all of the things that you want in a movie that feels good minus bender, having his issues, you know, minus, um, um, well the principles, the obvious, you know, um, villain, but still, you know, with all of its flaws, you still have the payoff and you still walk away kind of feeling like I enjoyed that movie.
Maggie: Yeah. I mean, I, I don't know. I don't agree with like, I don't know. I think that the way that the movie tied up is really, probably one of the things that makes it the most, like the, well, a lot of it didn't age. Well, we're saying, but like, I think would be more interesting, like is like the least nuanced of the whole movie.
Right. And it's literally because I paused to see like how many more minutes or less from the moment where, you know, Molly Ringwald like gives Allie Sheedy a make-over and she comes out, you know, and like all that. And it is five minutes of a, like one hour, 40 minute movie. So it's like, you know, I feel like everything else that happens in that movie is a lot more, um, interesting than what happens in the last five minutes, which is definitely when I was like, Not the way I felt like it made total sense to me that they got together and now, like, it doesn't really, I mean, I feel actually I feel Amelia west as an ally Sheedy getting together is a little bit more okay with me only because especially in this viewing and maybe because I'm driving, I'm just giving a million less that as too much credit, but there is like many moments in the movie.
It's not just when she gets the make-over right. Like throughout the movie, he seems really like, you know, plugged into her, like paying attention to Allie Sheedy, what she's doing. He seems amused by her. He seems interested in her. He smiles at her a lot and. You get the feeling like he's, he is paying attention to her.
And then like when she like pulls her hair back and has like a different outfit outfit somehow.
Julia: Okay. Yeah. And that's, I believe, I don't know if that's true.
Maggie: I mean, like, I felt that more, I felt like that was more okay with me, but maybe I'm just giving him, I feel like anyway, if we talk about him for a second, like, you know, probably my favorite scene in the movie is actually when he admitted what he did to get the detention, which is like torture this court nerd.
But like when he talks about, and of course it's all the dialogue that he's wrote. But like when he talks about how he's never, he's not interested in bullying kids, but they're in the locker room and like, You know, he's recall, like he was in the locker room thinking about how his dad would be basically proud of him if he believed this kid or like, you know, how he feels like he's falling short of like his dad's shenanigans when his dad was in high school and all of a sudden he's like, he's violently attacking this other kid.
And I feel like that is really, um, that felt really deep and like that it's like, yeah, why are people cruel, cruel to other people? Because it's not just kids who are cruel, like all throughout adulthood, people are cruel. And like, Y you know, it's not necessarily because they're just bad people. Um, so anyway, that's how I feel about that.
Sorry, I don't know how I got on that tangent.
Julia: Cause I forgot how. It felt very much that he was very sincere in his regret and behaving that way. And I just really loved that because, you know, Brian sitting over there like that was you like shocked that like,
Maggie: like whoa kind of scared of him now. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah. And I just, and you don't really get to see that, um, vulnerability a lot in men either. We don't really see that as much. So, Hey friends, did you know that? I have spoken about representation in media and literature, other than just on the podcast. I've been booked to speak at company meetings, panel discussions, voiceovers for commercials and video narratives and to moderate discussion panels, to learn more about how you can book me for an event, just shoot me an email pop culture makes me jealous@gmail.com.
You speaking engagement as the subject line, looking forward to working with. In a 2021 interview with Vogue magazine, Molly Ringwald, once again, revisits her experience with the three most important films of her career. 16 candles, breakfast club, and pretty in pink. When asked if her relationship has changed over time, she replied quote.
I recognize that those films are so meaningful for general, for generations of people, I feel very protective of them, but at the same time, I also have a complicated feelings towards them. I definitely feel like they're flawed and there are things they don't like about them. The lack of diversity in particular always bothers me.
I'm more conflicted about the breakfast club and 16 candles and pretty in pink, which I feel is actually the least problematic of the three. But I would say overall that I feel very loving and nostalgic towards the films I made with John, the occupy and important part of my life. And. And we, I feel like we've kind of touched on this a little bit already, but do you think this movie would hold up today?
If it were released now,
Maggie: what do you think I have, I have trouble with this question. Like if it were released as is there are a lot of movies still with all white casts and so yeah. What do you think?
Julia: I think, I think they'd have to, I think the concept could still exist. Um, you know, that, that, that idea of detention all day, I, again, by the time I was in high school in the late nineties, early two thousands, you could do your homework and detention.
It wasn't like a, you have to sit there and think about it. Cause that happens in freaks and geeks too. Well, you're not allowed to do anything in detention. It's so foreign to me. But I definitely think if they tried to release a movie based in Chicago or the Chicago region, people would pitch a fit about lack of diversity and rightfully so.
Yeah. And I don't know if you've listened to it, but in a few episodes that go my friend and I did a, um, conversation about Moxie and they placed it in the Pacific Northwest. And if you look at ratios or statistics, the cast of Moxie was more diverse in, in, in percentage, in that ratio percentage than all of the Pacific Northwest in general.
Yeah. So it was like that moment of like, okay, listen, we want representation, but also. No, like you did this weird, this feels awkward. Um, I would be interested to see if somebody could update it, not necessarily call it the breakfast club and not do the garbage that they did to she's all that by making he's all that, but, you know, keeping in line watching that movie.
So like, I want that time back. Um, but just, it'd be interesting. It'd be interesting to see how it looks one in a 20, 20, not just through a 20, 20 lens, but with like the technology that we have now, because I think what makes this movie work so well is that you can't be on, there was no cell phones. Yeah.
They didn't have like the computer.
Maggie: You know, even if they took their cell phones away during the tension, like there would still be, you know, they would be missing it or they, they didn't have like the concept of like being connected in that way, which I really enjoyed as an old person. But, um, the other, like, I think what you'd have to do now too is not, I, I really don't know.
So I might be over assuming, but I bet you, it was an all white crew as well. It's all white writers. And so I don't think you just fix this by having the actors, the more diverse, because the story would need to be more like, for example, like if the principal. You know, black or not white or, you know, well, that would be two different things or if like some of the students, or, I mean, obviously if any of the students were gay or LGBTQ of any kind right.
And like, or, you know, disabled, or like there's just so much that happens in a real school that is completely not, not represented here. I would like if the janitor were, you know, not white, like even the janitors white in this movie, which is, I mean, like, I don't know, that sounded, that doesn't sound, but you know what I mean?
Every single role is completely, it's like just a white world
Julia: and live in a community where there's only white people. I'm confused.
Maggie: Yeah. And I feel like to fix it or to make. To fix the diversity issue would have just been more than casting. Um, and I think like, I don't know what John Hughes was like as a collaborator, if he ever had a chance to sort of diversify because it's his story and his storytelling.
And I think that's why it's so white,
Julia: you know what I mean? Yeah. And you know, to your point on that, calling back to Moxie, that was the issue. The entire writing team was white. So when you have an entire white writing room, try to make a diverse film, it like they, they missed it, they missed the mark, you know?
And when you look at the writers on who were worked on that movie, you're like, I know you have black friends that you could have called
Maggie: you worked with them in the past, work with them
Julia: on this. And it would be interesting if, uh, And like you said, I don't know about John who's writing style and his collaboration and whatnot, but it would be interesting to bring like it's his experience, but then also, maybe somebody else comes in and shares their experience that they figure out how to marry the two to tell this story.
Yeah.
Maggie: And I think like one of the things I really liked about, um, another, yet another thing that Molly Ringwald new Yorker piece is very good, but like, there's a part toward like, you know, the bottom third, where she talks about like somebody who's black and gay stopping her at a party like recently and telling her how much breakfast submit to them.
And she was like, why? It's like, there's no, there's no representation of you in any way. And he was like, it's the alienation of the characters that really spoke to me. So I think like there is something in, and I, you know, when I watched this movie, like, um, my neighbor was not white and like, she seemed to really, like, she loved this movie and she really identified with it as well.
And like, so I feel. If there's something there about the universality of like feeling isolated and teenager and that it just could, obviously it wasn't, but it could be more inclusive of lots of different types of.
Julia: But I like what you have to say. Cause I about, you know, the relating to something and feeling bonded to something beyond just character appearance, because that's, you know, that was a lot of how I had to watch television.
You know, I didn't see my family represented in any way, shape or form on TV. Um, you know, and, and so same with books, same with dolls, all of it. So, you know, you have to start to think about like, okay, so what is it about this movie that feels relatable to me? And you sort of train yourself to think that way and you don't realize that you're doing it.
And then it becomes second nature. And then, you know, in, in your example with Molly Ringwald encountering that person. It's a lot of what the black community had to do. And I can't speak for any other community, cause I'm not a part of those communities, but in, in reference to, um, the black community, it's a lot of like, you know, I can relate to this character because alienation and maybe emotional abuse from my parents or whatever it is, and, and not necessarily the breakdown of the socioeconomic or being a sport or I don't know.
Maggie: Yeah. Yeah. That makes total sense. I mean, yeah. My experience growing up was I didn't question ha. I mean, it was so much more homogenous. Like the media that I consumed in the eighties and nineties, like, and especially in the eighties though, because I feel like it was just like so many like stories of white people and being white.
Like I never really noticed. And then like, it took a while until I was older to kind of think even though yeah, like in real life I had actually, I had mostly, uh, bypass friends, but, uh, because of the part of LA I grew up into, you know, it was, you know, diverse, but, but yeah, of course, like the media, I was consuming magazines, you know, magazines were so white, you know, all the models were white and all the celebrities they were covering too.
And like, I think, yeah, that is a real, when you talked about like what mark, this movie left on me, it's like the gender politics, for sure. And then also like, just like not questioning. Y, you know, at the time not questioning at all, like how every single person could be
Julia: white in a movie. It never occurred to me.
Yeah. As I, as I've embarked on this season of the show, cause we're Ana, we're looking at a lot of high school movies. I'm realizing how much of my identity has been shaped by these strong female characters that exist. And in some ways, Claire, you could, you know, you could argue whatever way you want about Claire, but at the end of the day, like she is who she is.
But in other respects too, like in other movies, there's all these really like, like just the commentary about gender, about gender in general. I'm realizing that really heavily influenced my position and, and being very much, um, in the camp of like, Hey guys, equity's a good thing. Also don't treat me like shit, cause I'm a woman.
And you don't always think about that either. And how that influences you. And there's a lot of that in the nineties, for sure. Where you have these really strong female characters, but they're painted in this lens of like being an agitator or a man-hater or what have you fast forward 20, 30 years. And you're like, no, she was awesome.
And, and just the way that they sort of handled it, maybe wasn't the best, but they still gave us this like character that we could be like, jeez, about us. Let's be more like her.
Maggie: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I mean, I feel like Claire to me is like, I wonder how much teen girls have changed. Like in the way they relate to boys, honestly, because she she's so ashamed, you know?
And she's so easily shared. Uh, and teased. I mean, he's doing more than vendors doing more than teasing, but like, um, but yeah, and she, and I just wonder, like how much, I don't know. I was thinking about actually a movie that, or a book that came to mind. This is like one of the only white books I've read in like the last 15 years, but I read the divergent series.
Have you ever watched those movies? Um, I really liked that that female character, the main character is a girl. Um, but like one thing I really liked about it was, um, when she starts to fall in love with the main dye in the, in the book, she still has her own life. Like she really does, like, not just like, oh, she kind of works her life in around this crush and this romance, like she has her whole own thing.
She has her own problems. She has her own thing she's trying to do. Um, she there's one scene in the book where she, um, Like jumps off a building because all the dauntless do that together. And I'm only bringing this up because even reading it as like a 39 year old, I read it like a couple of years ago, like her crush, whose name is for like, he's afraid of Heights.
That's like a big part of the plot. And so he doesn't go, he doesn't go to the top of the building and jump off and she fucking goes anyway. Like she's like, okay, well, I'll see you back at the like weird hole that we live in. And like, but I'm going to go jump off this building with my friends. And she doesn't, she doesn't not go and he's not upset about it.
And I feel like, I felt like, wow, now that is something Claire would never do. If she was in a dystopian novel in the eighties, she would never like go live her own life, you know? Yeah. So I do think like there's progress with some female characters. That's like really significant, um, and meaningful to me as someone who like didn't have any, I didn't have any role model like that, for sure.
Um, but in a lot of other ways, I think like a lot of girls, especially with like Instagram and well, they're not even on Instagram anymore, whatever apps they're on that I don't even know about. Cause I'm too old. Um, you know, they're all, it's all about image and like how they look and what boys they're thinking about, how they look, you don't wonder.
Julia: But now also you gave me the idea that we need to start writing, um, dystopian novel set in the eighties with a strong female lead. That's a great idea. As we're, as you're talking, I'm thinking yeah. Dystopian novels. I'm thinking of all the dystopian novels I read in, you know, that were released between like what, 1960, whatever to like 1999.
And I'm just like, I think we need some girls up in here being like bad-ass and dystopia.
Maggie: Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of other problems with those books, but I felt like I remember I just brought it up because like I remember as I was reading the scene, having this realization like, wow, like that's great.
Like she, I don't think the author like that, if that comes from the author, you know, I don't think she, like, that was just natural to her to write a female character who is like obsessed, like is obsessed with her crush of course, because she's a teenager, but has like this whole other thing that she's doing.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. I haven't read the series, but we did, my son did, and we did go see the movies when they were released and I did enjoy the movies, but now I'm like, do I read the books? Because then I hope become that, not become that person. But then I do the whole, cause I have this whole thing about book to screen adaptations.
How to do it without losing the integrity of the book, because that happens so often. And I'm like, do I want it, do I want to go down that road? Well, there Romans
Maggie: is a lot better in the book, but another reason I thought of this book when it has like a slight, um, you know, uh, connection to the breakfast club, like a slight as possible, but like the whole thing is there's these factions, right?
And so there's, don't listen, there's obligation and Amity or whatever, you know, they're, everybody fits into one and the main character is divergent. She fits them. All right. It's not that she doesn't fit into any, it's like, she's all of them. And that's how the breakfast club ends too. With like the essay that Brian writes, where he says, we're all a brain, we're all a basket case.
We're all a jock. We're all like we, we're not just, you know, fitting into our roles where all these things. And I think like, yeah, that's kind of interesting that like, that. 'cause like, yeah. When you're an adult too, like you kind of give up, you're just like, okay, this is my life. I mean, not all adults give up, not all the time, but you know, you're like, this is, this is, you know, you kind of like fit in a box and like, then you're kind of like working out, you know, do I fit here?
And like, it's kind of lifelong. It's not just when you're a team, you know?
Julia: Absolutely. I'm definitely going through that now because I'm thinking, who am I without a child in the house? Like, what does that even mean? What does that even look like? And, and we don't really have a lot of that represented in pop culture and how to navigate that.
And I realized how much of a crutch I used for television and movies to sort of help me figure out how I feel. Um, not, not to tell me how I feel, but sort of to help me like realize like, oh yeah, I feel that that's, I understand that. I relate to that scenario. That's happening, that kind of stuff. And interesting.
We don't have a ton of that. Actually the solo model. Trope on in pop culture is really upsetting, but we don't ha this is not a one dimensional
Maggie: yeah. And empty nesters. Yeah. It's very, it's very flat, like not a lot of nuance there.
Julia: Hm. What's interesting to me as this conversation between again, you know, um, this battle between youth and experience, because as I'm getting closer and closer to 40, I, you know, I'm not competing, but you know, the pool has more and more college graduates who are, you know, probably went to high school with my kid.
And I'm feeling that pressure of like, am I still going to get. An opportunity because now I'm competing with somebody who might be young and fresh and hot. But then when I see stuff, when I see, you know, younger people speak on the internet and talk about like, thank you for highlighting this young person, we don't get any credit.
And I'm just like, well, who's getting all the credit then, because I'm not, I'm not, I'm pushing 40. And I still feel like I have not had like the heyday that we're supposed to, like we're told we're supposed to have. Right?
Maggie: Yeah. I don't know, man.
Julia: I don't know. You know, to say I wasn't impacted by John. He was, his work would be a lie, but to echo Molly Ringwald sentiment, I have complicated feelings towards this movie.
Mackie, thank you so much for joining us today. Can you share with our friends at home where they can catch you if they want to keep up with you on.
Maggie: Oh, yes. Thank you for having me. Yeah. I am on Instagram, Maggie, Frank Hsu, and that's my website to Maggie Frick, hse.com.
Julia: Nice and friends. We'll link in the show notes.
So that way you can take a look at our website and see the, um, freebie offer that she has in all of that fun stuff. If you love our show and want to support it, there's a few ways that you can do that. Become a supporter on Patrion for $10 a month to receive ad free episodes with bonus content. Or you can write a review or rate the podcast wherever you find your podcasts.
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