Working Girl | 1
Show Notes:
Working Girl released December 20th, 1988, and stars Sigourney Weaver, Melanie Griffith, Harrison Ford, Alec Baldwin, and Joan Cusack, just to name a few.
In this episode host, Julia Washington and her guest Libby Saylor break down the trope of pitting women against each other, the origin story of characters like Katherine Parker, and how Working Girl holds up.
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Transcript:
Julia: Hey friends, this is pop culture makes me jealous where we talk about pop culture through the lens of race or gender. And sometimes both Libby sailor is back. And today we are talking about working girl.
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Julia: Working girl released December 20th, 1988 and star Sigourney Weaver, Melanie Griffith, Harrison Ford, Alec Baldwin, and Joan QAC. Just to name a few, but before we dive in, let me reintroduce you to my guest. Libby sailor is a blogger in artist living in working in the suburbs of Philadelphia, her blog, the ES attainable, aims to inspire and empower women to become their authentic goddess selves unapologetically.
Julia: She explores topics of dating and relationships, self love, personal growth and spirituality among others. Libby was here in seasons two and three, where we discussed when Harry met Sally and 16 candles and we've become friends in real life. And I enjoyed those conversations. So it felt only normal and natural to bring her back today.
Julia: Welcome to the show, Libby.
Libby: Thank you. Good to be here when you're reading, I just realized I've only done eighties things so far. Oh my God. Which I'm fine with. That's my, that's my bread and butter, but it's like when you said Harry Mitz McSally 16 can yeah. I'm working girl. Yeah. I kinda love that. Which works for me cuz I'm I'm yeah.
Libby: Born in 79. So I think it's like, I think it works. That's
Julia: your era, which is interesting too, because another topic you're here for will be talking about Angela from who's the boss. So it's another it's
Libby: eighties. . I mean, these are the ones that I sort of like pick. So it's like, you know, I mean, I could probably do nineties too, since I was like a teen in the nineties, but eighties is just, there's just something probably the nostalgia it's so like in my soul.
Libby: Yeah. So
Julia: yeah, I love, that's funny. I just thought of that. I know. I love that. And friends, if you haven't listened to the one Harry Mets episode, it's so good. You have to tune in. Maybe I'll link it in the show notes to make it easier. So that way you have, you can't avoid
Libby: it. you have to click on it. you have to click on it.
Julia: Now, before we dive into our topic about working girl, though, I do wanna start off with this question. Do you remember what you thought of like rich or wealthy women on TV or in movies when you were a kid?
Libby: Yeah, I. Like if I think about the question, I kind of feel like I thought they were awesome. Oh, I love that.
Libby: Like there was, yeah, like there was, you know, I, I have like one voice with my father who is always kind of like people with a lot of money, have no souls. Like that's, you know, he still kind of thinks that, and there's, I'm always a bit conflicted, but like me personally, I don't think I was in a place at a young age to like, understand that or really care.
Libby: You know, I was like in such a visual person. I'm like, there's so pretty there. You know? And, and especially in the eighties, there was like very specific rich people, things like, I feel like everybody in the eighties always had a French twist. Mm mm-hmm. like a French twist equals like rich woman, or they always have like red nails.
Libby: So just like pretty things like that. I associated with like rich. Women. And I don't think I had a judgment or a negative connotation. I was like, oh, they're beautiful. That's cool. I didn't think any deeper than that. Is that weird? No,
Julia: I don't think so. And I think, you know, it's what was yours? It's interesting because you know, when you said that your dad said that rich people have no soul and the first person I thought of is Elon Musk.
Julia: When you said that
Libby: which he doesn't like, he does, like, my dad is not wrong. The older I get, the more I'm like, oh shit. And I always try. I always try to like, argue with him, like, no, and then like something will happen in life. I'm like, my dad was right. Yeah. My dad was right. And like, I hate that. He's right.
Libby: Cuz it, but you, you think about the way people earn money and the kinds of things, especially the working girl is a classic example. But like you think about the things that people have to do to get, not to just make good money, but to like be insanely rich on like another level. Yeah. Like it requires a lot of undercutting gross stuff.
Libby: I think mm-hmm which I just wasn't aware of until maybe I got older or started paying attention. So I think he's right. For the most part, I don't want him to
Julia: be, but yeah. Especially when it comes to what kinds of men are represented these days or who are portraying wealth? There's a lot of like, are you a robot?
Julia: yeah, but it, but I, sorry, go ahead.
Libby: Well, no, I was gonna say, but then we have to wonder, is it different for women? Yeah, like obviously rich men are, you know, we can name a million evils, but like, I don't know, is it different with women?
Julia: And I think, and I think that it is, that's why the whole season, this season is dedicated to representation of wealthy women in the media, because I think too, it changes based on decade because my first exposure to a wealthy woman on television was Claire Huxtable.
Julia: I
Libby: was gonna say Claire HX. Yes. And she is. Amazing. She's kind of like, perfect, perfect. She's she's
Julia: got, she's the right balance of being a shark and empathy, you know, and she's warm and loving, but when you see her, like when she knows that she's got a good case or she's, she just can get,
Libby: or even with, even with cliff, she's like, no, no mm-hmm or with the kids, like, she just don't like, don't mess with her.
Libby: She's just perfect. She's like, honestly, goddess she's goddess level perfection. She
Julia: absolutely is. And you're right. She did have a French twist sometimes in her hair during few episodes. She did wear her hair down a lot too, but yeah, there was something about her that was just. Oozing wealth in such a dignified way.
Julia: Totally. Like they were very humble about how much money they had, you know? Yeah. They were very, like, we worked very hard to be here kind of at the home. Yeah.
Libby: And the kids had to like do the chores and they didn't like, let them off the hook or anything. Mm-hmm , mm-hmm, , it's hard because it's like, that was a fictional character.
Libby: Yeah. So you wonder like, is, is there a real woman like that mm-hmm in the world or,
Julia: yeah. Yeah. And, and I think that kind of set me up for, uh, a struggle over the next course of my life, because then you have characters in movies where you're just like Miranda, priestly, you are an interesting human, but also you have to live within the patriarchy to survive.
Julia: So, but also, you know, there's just this whole like, well, what do we, what are the messages that we're getting? And what do we remember as children? So I feel lucky that my first. Representation was Claire Huxtable, but it did sort of set up this confusion. like, wait, am I allowed to have money? Or am I not allowed to have money?
Julia: Cuz pop culture can't make up its mind. our topic today is working girl. Since this film released in 1988, let's do a recap for everyone and okay. As we all know, I pull my summaries from Google savvy, New York city receptionist test McGill gives her con conniving boss, Katherine Parker, an excellent business tip, but Katherine simply steals the idea without giving due credit to her secretary.
Julia: After Katherine winds up in the hospital with an injured leg test decides to exact revenge, pretending to be her boss, TES initiates a major deal with an investment broker, but things turn ugly after Katherine finds out what te has been up to. At the time of its release. Roger Ebert had this to say, the plot of working girl is put together like clockwork.
Julia: It carries you along while you're watching it, but reconstruct it later and you'll see the craftmanship. Kevin Wade's screenplay is sort of. Underhanded in the way it diverts us with laughs and with melodramatic subplot involving Griffith's former boyfriend, while all the time it's winding up for this dispensable climax.”
Julia: So while this film carries the theme of class, it hones in on the need for women to be at odds with each other in business, the film reaffirms repeatedly that test doesn't have the right education to even dare to dream of being more than a secretary.
Julia: But what it also affirms is that there's barely room for one woman, let alone two, and this kind of narrative creates the need for unhealthy competion. To succeed and rise above in the 1988 review from the New York times, Janet Maslin had this to say, quote, working girl as an eighties, creation is its way of regarding business and sex as almost interchangeable pursuits and suggesting that life's greatest happiness can be achieved by combining the two, Katherine Parker is just shy of 30 and in a powerful and in a powerful position in the firm.
Julia: And though we didn't see her rise to the top, we can speculate. She likely had a similar experiences with her male colleagues in an article from 1988. The Los Angeles times reported that quote, women who are committed to careers have not been around long enough to gain the experience necessary for the top spots.
Julia: It takes an average of 35 years after college to become a CEO, which means that women would've had to get. On the career ladder at, by 1953, few women were in business school. At this time. Most business schools began admitting increasing numbers of women in the early 1970s and women now comprise a quarter or more of enrollment in MBA programs at such prestigious schools as Stanford and Harvard at Stanford.
Julia: For instance, women comprise nearly one third of current enrollment compared to less than 2%. In 1972 at Harvard women make up set 27% of the MBA students compared to 4% in 1972 and quote by this reporting, Katherine Parker is likely in early recipient of many of the Ivy league universities accepting women into MBA programs.
Julia: She's beautiful, intelligent comes from wealth and fits that wasp narrative perfectly. So let's talk about Katherine Parker. What are your impressions of her? And just so for everyone at home knows Sue Gorney Weaver plays Katherine Parker.
Libby: Who's my favorite. I love her too much. Um, also that's like really, I didn't know.
Libby: Harvard currently was 27% MBA. That's like, so that was,
Julia: that
Libby: was in 19. Was that back? Okay. That was back. Yeah. Okay. I was like, it seems like there's more now. Um, Catherine, like my, my first thought about her, especially when I rewatched it was like, cuz I'm very, everything's through the lens of like a goddess.
Libby: Right? So like Athena, it reminds me of a, I mean she's such an Athena and Athena people know Athena is like the goddess of war, but really Athena is like her strategy. She's very strategic mm-hmm and the strategy is to align with men. Yeah. Align with like male P that's, like sort of that's how Athena like won her wars and got what she wanted.
Libby: She was like, she had no aversion to men. She like basically played along with them and befriended them. So I feel like there's there's that with. Her and, you know, it's, I kind of put that in like the second wave of fem feminism, where it was like, women were kind of like so competitive with other women.
Libby: They're like, you know, the whole, there's only one person, one woman at this school it's either me or it's you. So it's you, I gotta go, you know, like, So it's such an aggressive way. Whereas now I think it's such a like refreshing thing. Cause I feel like there's so much more like women supporting women. Um, but yeah, my first impression is like Athena.
Libby: She's like I'm with the boys. I gotta work with the boys. I'm not aligning with any women. Um, I thought she was really scary. Mm-hmm even like, just as a kid, I was like, that's a scary woman. She's really no problem confrontational. No like so confident. Um, and then. I also thought she was like impressive though.
Libby: Cuz like there's that one scene where she's like flirting with this guy. He's like this disgusting guy. Yeah. And she's like, Hey, you know, and then I guess te comes over and is just like, who's that? And she's just like, Ugh, she like barks at her mouth, you know? So it's like, she admits like, Hey, I'm just totally playing this game.
Libby: That was super disgusting. I feel like any woman who does that is like a super badass even I don't even think I could do it. I just work from my mouth. I dunno. I dunno if I could flirt with some gross guy just to get what I want. Ooh. Um, but yeah, I, and I also think she can be a sympathetic character because she was cheated on, I mean, I know she sucks mm-hmm but like she was cheated on and that kind of sucks and yeah.
Libby: Yeah, there was a lot, there was a lot she's kind of complex, but in general I think she scared the shit outta me. you know,
Julia: and you almost have to be like. especially in the eighties. Right? Especially after reading all those stats about like how women weren't accepted into graduate programs, essentially until the seventies or the early fifties or the fifties sixties or whatever it was, because now you're not just competing.
Julia: Like you're the only woman in the room, like, yeah, that I've felt that before it sucks and it, and it's like, how do you, you have to survive. You have to figure out how to survive in order to be able to not miss those opportunities, because you're already fighting the assumption that you're lesser because you're a girl.
Julia: Oh, they just let you in. Cuz you're a girl.
Libby: It's you know, as you're talking though, it's funny because you think about that has to your, your priority in life and your soul to be like, that has to be power mm-hmm because I was thinking about te as you're talking, I'm like, well, TES still wanted to be friends with her coworkers and that last scene, which, oh my God, I like, I get Misty eye every time I watched it with the whole, when she's telling her, you know, she thinks like she thinks this secretary desk is her desk and her secretary is like, no, no, no, you're actually in that huge office.
Libby: Yeah. And then they talk about her expectations and she's like, she's just so nice to her se she's like, don't get coffee, unless you're getting it for yourself. I like, oh my God. Yeah. So it's like, there are, but honestly, like, I don't know if that would've like worked in reality, like in the eighties.
Libby: Mm-hmm um, so yeah, I feel like your priority has to be complete power in order to treat other women. That terribly.
Julia: Yeah. It's like, you have to CA you have to fall in line with the patriarchy. Otherwise there's no room for you cuz you know, we've seen it. Men don't care. If you are a threat, they will find a way to get you out.
Libby: Oh yeah. Oh my God. I mean still they're kind of ruthless, but I'm yeah, yeah. that's it's a whole other thing. I mean, women can be too. Yeah. Women can it's it's not specific to men, but no, but I am now leaning toward in that
role.
Julia: Yeah. I would say I am more leaning now towards the idea that women it's a survival skill for women, as opposed to men just behaving that way.
Julia: Totally. Cause like we can't come in and change the status quo if it's like, it's like you come in and you think, okay, so how can I envi survive this environ? And you see the way they treat people. And you're like, okay, I have to fall in line and act like the top men do otherwise I'm out. Whereas, you know, these men have just always been on top and privileged and assumed that they will always be number one.
Julia: And so that's why they can behave that way. It's like that scene where Oliver, our plat sends Melanie Griffith out to go meet with that gross leader guy in the company, Kevin, Kevin Spacey, Kevin Spacey. He has creeped me out my whole life. So gross in
Libby: that scene Uhhuh.
Julia: And like, she's, she's innocent. She's super naive in the sense of like, she thinks this is a real job opportunity and he's just looking for a good time.
Julia: Yeah. And Oliver plat knows this. Right. And sends her into the lions den. And Melanie Griff is like, I'm gonna get outta the car right here. Which good for her. Yeah.
Libby: Yeah. That was get, it was getting
Julia: scary. Cause not everyone has the, um, I don't wanna say strength, but not everyone has the ability to do that.
Julia: Like, she was confident enough in what she wanted in life to be able, not that saying confidence is the wrong word. I
Libby: feel like if I was in her position, I feel like fear would be my main motivator. Mm-hmm like, I just, I like, I gotta get outta here cuz I'm scared of what happens if I don't,
Julia: you know? Yeah.
Julia: Fight or flight kind of situation. Totally. Yeah, totally. Mm-hmm yeah. And I feel like, you know, that's a situation that a lot of women are put into. Um mm-hmm and going back, calling back to your, uh, comment about. Catherine flirting with that guy. I feel like that's how Catherine avoids those situations.
Julia: Like she flirts just enough. Yeah. But then is able to like dial it back and get what she wants. She's maybe been in Melanie Griffith's position before, but maybe not, you know, just, we don't know cuz we don't get a ton of backstory on her. Yeah.
Libby: It's so funny. I think I'm like envious of, of that ability.
Libby: Like I know that's a very woman, you know, it's like this skill that a lot of women possess and I actually just watched mission impossible too last night because my sister and I thought that the new mission impossible had already come out, we were gonna buy tickets where it's so excited, but it's not out until 2023.
Libby: no. So, so I was like watching back to back all the mission impossibles to catch up for this Sunday. And then I was like, oh shit, we're not anyway. So in mission impossible too, Sandy Newton, she plays a thief and her whole, the whole thing, she's like having to sleep with an ex-boyfriend have him give her all the information.
Libby: It's like the whole movie was like blowing my mind, how she's like just playing everybody, but she's also has feelings and is vulnerable and doesn't wanna do it, but is also like power. And so it's like, even with Sigourney Weaver, she doesn't, she didn't seem scared or anything to flirt with that guy. It seems like very I'm in control.
Libby: I'm complete in control. Yeah. I just don't think, I, I don't think I could do that. I would just be, I don't know what the hell I would do. I would get myself into huge messes, but so I feel like that's an impressive skill, even though it's, you know, she, it's not great. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah. Definitely, um, a learned skill because we, you know, have to find ways to survive.
Libby: Yeah. That's how I feel
Julia: too.
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Julia: In that same article from the LA times from 1988, they also had this to include most banks did not allow women into management training programs until about 15 years ago. So 1988 minus 15 years is that 1973. Also many women pursuing their careers through the 1960s and 1970s were relegated to the velvet coffins of personnel and corporate communications departments.
Julia: Excluding them from the line positions that provide the bulk of the top executives end quote. So when Tess played by Melanie Griffith shows, she has the drive to be more than a secretary. She faces a litany of horrific behavior from her male colleagues. As we mentioned a little bit ago, mm-hmm , she's placed for the fourth time as Katherine Harper's secretary Tess pitches, this idea to Katherine and after Katherine experiences, an accident TES learns that Katherine is attempting to present this idea as her own.
Julia: She embarks on a journey of making this deal happen. That's like the whole premise of the movie mm-hmm. So when Katherine finally returns, she shares with TES that she's presenting the idea to Jack as her own, as her own because of ethics, reminding TES that it's a two-way street, but when Catherine learns what Tess has been doing, she loses her shit and crashes a very important meeting where she scoffs at the idea that a secretary could possibly come up with such an idea.
Julia: Test goes from feeling supported by Catherine to being portrayed, to supported again, then clearly portrayed once more while this concept exists in male-centric movies, it's different when it's between two women. So I wanna talk about why this is different between two women, as opposed to men. Yeah. What are your thoughts?
Julia: That's
Libby: a good question. It's like a genius question. Oh, I mean, oh my, I, yeah, I love the question. I mean, I kind of feel. My first reaction was like, I don't know if men, okay. Imagine a man in complete power and somebody under him, maybe he's mentoring. Someone has like a really good idea. There's a part of me that thinks, well, a man in power, his power is not threatened.
Libby: Mm-hmm , he's not con you know, with Catherine, like she's constantly trying to maintain our power with a, a man. I feel like he might be less likely to just throw a guy under the bus, cuz it's like, he's not gonna lose anything by helping this guy. You know, that was one thought, but just say it did happen.
Libby: You know? I mean, sometimes guys are gross too. So say these things happen. I feel like just because of the way men tend to handle things. I think a man who would be in TE's role probably would confront his boss directly. Mm-hmm , that's kind of my assumption. I, I think women are more likely to be a little bit more roundabout about, I'm not saying that's good.
Libby: Bad. I'm not saying either a good or bad mm-hmm I think women, again, it's a learned skill I've had to learn. Well, if we confront someone we're a bitch or yeah, we're gonna get fired or we get smacked in the face or whatever, like confrontation can be a really, we can get really bad results from it. So right.
Libby: We've had to learn, I mean, like as a species to sort of go around or manipulate or whatever. And so I think a woman's natural response is to kind of go around. Yeah. Uh, and a man I think would just call him up and be like, what the fuck, dude? What are you doing? You know, that's kind of my first
Julia: reaction.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it's interesting because as women, we are sort of shepherded away from confrontation mm-hmm right. Like even if we are direct. like you said, the results always end up poorly for us. Like we get those nasty words placed on us for being direct. Yeah. And I don't know about you if this is your experience, but in my experience, I won't be loud.
Julia: I will be very calm, cool. Collected in confrontation. And I'm still getting told you're being unhinged. You're being yeah. Emotional, like all these things. Yeah. And it's like, they attack
Libby: the way you're doing it, which is such bullshit. Cuz it's like, there's no, I mean, you just can't win. Like if you do it, you can't, you're too emotional.
Libby: You're not emotional enough. And it's just, you it's like a lose lose for you. Mm-hmm .
Julia: Yeah. And they do working girl does such a, it works really hard to make sure that we know that TES and Catherine are different. So like you have. The social class is part of the commentary too. Cuz test didn go to the right schools.
Julia: And she lives in the wrong city and Staten island. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Alec Baldwin. Ugh,
Libby: what is a scum baggie? What, oh my God, the way he talked to, because I, you know, it's fresh in my mind that one scene where like he proposed to her, whatever, but he'd already cheated on her. And he was like, you know, she kind of said no in front of everyone, he was like, what the fuck?
Libby: And she was kind of defending herself and he was like, where do you get off? Who like died made you Grace Kelly? And it was just like, oh my God, that is so abusive and terrible and awful and self worth. And it kind of weakened me out that her best friend was like, why aren't you throwing him a bone? I'm like, uh, That's a shitty friend, if you like your boyfriend cheats on you and you're kind of like in his camp.
Julia: Yeah. And that's just the mentality at the time. Like you should be grateful and still sometimes to this day. Yeah. You should be grateful that somebody even bothered to ask you to marry you because isn't that the end goal. And even the way that the, that the, her state island people treat her about her clothes and carrying a briefcase and all these things.
Julia: Yeah.
Libby: And they're like, oh, you're miss fancy, whatever. Now it's like, don't you want her to succeed or do well, it's wronging people, but it's true. Cuz her succeeding is of reflection or reminder. Maybe what they're not doing, or it's very like class heavy for sure.
Julia: Mm-hmm big time. Um, and then conversely, we have Catherine who's clearly, you know, well bred who has great taste.
Julia: I mean, she goes skiing for crying out loud, like as for fun, she's talking about, um, trying to like coordinate this marriage proposal that she thinks is gonna happen and just very
Libby: I'm me
Julia: and she's very much like this is the line. These are the things that we are supposed to do as business professional women.
Julia: And the next thing on my list to check off is getting married,
Libby: getting married. That's just like my ambition. Yeah.
Julia: Which is so just strange. Um, it's not that strange, but to me, like, I, this is why it's strange to me in this movie. Because I always saw women in television who were ambitious, getting married was not part of the goal of their story.
Julia: Mm-hmm yeah. So to, so to see that in working girl, I forgot about that part of working girl. Mm. When we were watching it, I was like, oh, I guess I didn't expect her to wanna be like, and next is
Libby: marriage. It kind of works because Jack trainer is, he's like on her level. And so maybe in her mind, it's like a power couple or something, but it's true.
Libby: And she didn't seem very sentimental about it. Like, oh, I, you know, Although the thing is she did though. I mean, well, this is another thought that I had about, you know, the difference between men arguing men fighting over this and women, how women would handle it. This was also funky because they're kind of also fighting over a man.
Libby: Yes. Like when, when Catherine finds like, you know, she, Jack comes in and basically tries to break up with her, but doesn't, which I think is a total bullshit move on his part. Yeah. Um, because he is essentially playing both and Tess is so happy. I'm like, what are you happy for? He didn't break up with her, you know?
Libby: Yeah. But so, so then TES runs often and Katherine is left with like Tess's date, book, date. And she sees that she's like scheming and getting meeting up with Jack. And she's she like freaks out and she's like, slut. Like she screams the word slut, you know, it's like she could have screamed other words, but like, in her mind it was like clear that she was like, kind of taking her man as well.
Libby: So it's like they're fighting over business stuff, but also like man stuff. And that always just pisses me off because in the end two women are scrapping over this dumb ass who is like, he's just playing you. I mean, I know it's Harrison Ford, he's the sweetest thing. He's so cute. He's so nice to test.
Libby: Everybody loves him. And it's not, he's not like playing a cheater role. Mm-hmm but when you watch a really closely it's like, technically when you hooked up with te you were still with Catherine mm-hmm you had plans to break up with her, but. Not really. Yeah. And then you kind of tried to break up with her, but not really.
Libby: So in the end, he never actually broke up with her and he still liked as I love you. So that is just an annoying thing, but it, it just makes it more of a complex, like complex cat fight
Julia: between the two of them. Yeah. Yeah. Going back to what the, um, New York times said about it, how the, you know, business and sex are almost interchangeable pursuits and, and, and your statement totally falls into that comment from the times, because she could have TES could have still worked with Jack train without them falling in love.
Julia: Like that could have been part of the story. Like you didn't have to add that element necessarily to it, for it to work because she still, Tess has still gone behind Catherine's back to make these deals happen. Yeah, even though Kathryn and her idea is really good. Her idea is really good. And so, you know, it was just kind of that for me, it was like, and I understand that the movie was in 1988.
Julia: I get it. I know, but I just can't do that whole, we're gonna have the guy be the source of these two girls fighting like that. To me, Ising, it's frustrating. And it's patriarchal, bullshit because it's dividing us just to divide us, like instead of totally, instead of uniting, because he's not the one who's be, he's the one who's not being honest with either of them, they're now fighting with each other.
Julia: Like that's so
Libby: it's so, yeah. And the HAPPI believer after thing is because she ended up with him, you know, like at the end. Yeah. They're like living together and like kiss each other goodbye. It's like, what if she didn't get with him? And she was like alone, I guess, in her apartment, in Staten island going to work, like, is that not a happy ending?
Libby: Cause she, she still has the cool job, but like apparently if you don't land the man. Then what's the point. I mean, and I get it, we all want the happy ending with the hot guy. Like, I mean, we're all just like, so pro like I want a fucking happy ending with the hot guy in my own life, you know? I mean,
Julia: but same.
Julia: Yeah. but also how much of that is because we grew up with these types of happy ending
Libby: girl, welcome to the store of my everyday dialogue. Like lib. Do you, do you really, I mean, I know I want it, but like, do, do you, do you want it. You want it or do you want it because the whole world basically sees you as some kind of 42 old loser.
Libby: If you don't have a man who's in love with you, you know, like it's really hard. It's a daily, it's a daily like yeah. Pondering situation. Yeah. I
Julia: understand. I don't get invited stuff to step cuz I'm not coupled. And you know, and it's not because I'm not coupled, that's not what they say, but it's, it is because I'm not coupled because you're doing couple's activities and
Libby: you yeah.
Libby: It's like the Bridget Jones dinner party. Yes. and it's, which is amazing scene.
Julia: Yes. And it's just kinda like it's, that's fine. If you don't know how to have a relationship with a co with an UN uncoupled person as a couple. Yeah. Fair. We don't have a ton of representation of that in, in media. No, but at the same time, Is why, why are we still, and I guess in 1988, I understand why they're still perpetuating the whole.
Julia: You have to have the guy and the career. Mm God. But there's still stuff today that still gives that narrative still perpetuate that
Libby: message. God like that is, oh, that is such an alive, alive. And not only that, you have to have the guy, you have to be rockstar at your job and you have to have kids and you have to have an amazingly hot body.
Libby: Like, I feel like the, the amount of pressure pressure, it's actually more than it was. Yeah. And men are like having meltdowns and losing their minds and just like shutting down completely. Yeah. It's impossible. Like, oh my God, fuck it. It's impossible. For
Julia: real. I know every time and I, cuz I'm having body image issues and I have been for a while, they were just easier to hide from during COVID because I was so go, go, go with work.
Julia: And then now that I'm like, We are reentering into the world and I'm pulling up my wardrobe and we've had this conversation, but I'm really struggling with deprogramming. The, I, I have to get back to how I looked at 31 because I don't have my body's different now. Right. Like, and not just, I don't, I don't think we could.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. And not just because I'm 80 pounds heavier, but because I'm no longer 30 . Yeah.
Libby: Yeah. So, so, and it's like, it's even more like, and why is that a bad thing? Yeah. Like, okay, so you're not 30 you're. Okay. So I'm not 31. I'm 42. Why is that mean something disgusting? Yeah. You know, and I, so I, they told us that they, because they told us that's why
Julia: exactly.
Julia: So I do appreciate the push of like move your body because it's good for your mental health, but there still perpetuates this idea of like, oh, only skinny, pretty girls can have the hot guy at the end. So you gotta be skinny. At any, like, yeah, I do think that that is changing. You know, body positivity is out there and there's all these like really great, like, um, fem forward folks who are, you know, your body is your body, love it kind of stuff.
Julia: And I, and yeah. And that's helping with the deprogramming, but
Libby: every, do you ever see, like, I'm always fascinated by couples where if I'm out and I'll see like a woman who's maybe like, not a stick mm-hmm with like a super hot guy. And I'm like, what? It's just like, that's always fun to see. That's what
Julia: I'm like.
Julia: I'm like, how girl, how did you land that, man? Cuz I would like a very hot man like that, but in my area they also want me to be very skinny and fit. Right. Which is hard to do, um, with current emotional state.
Libby: I mean, total of course, like, and you also have to ask like, okay, well if you get a hot guy, is he gonna be giving you what.
Libby: Is he gonna be giving your heart? Yeah. What it needs? I I've actually given up on the hot guy. I'm like, I mean, I think for me, I've always been intimidated by getting with a hot guy. Yeah. Like I think I would constantly worry that I wasn't attractive enough or that other women were trying to mess with him, which they probably would be.
Libby: Mm-hmm um, I don't know. I just, I have so many actually stereotypes against hot guys and I'm like kind of scared to get with one. So I'm like, I don't know. I can lower my bar a bit for that. But if he happened to be hot, it was nice. That's just like bonus. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah. The giving you what you need, actually, that's a big one.
Julia: That's my biggest hurdle is after a couple weeks, it's like, oh, you don't feed me the way I need to be fed. And you know what? Yeah. Like
Libby: you deserve that. You deserve someone who's like, I mean, you deserve someone who we all do, but you deserve someone who like. Adores you. Oh gosh. Yeah. Oh,
Julia: yes. You, that works.
Julia: You did too
Libby: though. Well, yes, I hold up. I mean, I want that too. And I'm like, I actually have had a taste of it in some relationships. And so it's like that. Yes. That feeling, I don't wanna go lower than that feeling because that's a feeling that I'm actually very comfortable with. And I don't think it's that hard to, I mean, I adore my best friend.
Libby: I adore my sister. It's not that hard to like adore someone, so it's okay to hold out for that.
Julia: And I, it's interesting that you bring that up too, because I think we have such an emphasis on, um, Finding that romantic relationship, but what's great about having relationships in our lives that are non-romantic, it teaches us how we like to be treated in those relationships.
Julia: So there's not a whole lot of conversation and in representation of like intimate relationships that are non-sexual, which 100% exist, and that's kind of what you have sometimes with certain people in your life. Right. Well, I don't know about you, but there're my
Libby: God, if I didn't have that, I don't know where I'd be.
Libby: Yeah. Like, yeah.
Julia: So it's almost kind of like two are, do we want, are we with the Baldwin character or are we gonna go with, or, or is like are only two options, Alec Baldwin and Jack trainer. I
Libby: fucking hope not Alec Baldwin needs to stay away from all women. He. So wretched. I mean, Jack train, like I guess I actually feel like he's unreal.
Libby: Yeah. Like Alec Baldwin is I think quite a typical, I mean, you just see that in real life, Jack trainer, I don't know. Um, cause he comes off
Julia: this like this really great guy and he is smart and he's
Libby: so, and he is funny
Julia: and he, and he's funny, he's attractive and he is wealthy and like, and he's a gentleman and he's a gentleman and he listens when you talk like , I mean,
Libby: that's, hot's so sad.
Libby: Like, like we're our, our basics are just like, oh, he listens to me when I talk. It's like, it's so sad that that's our like, bar, like, oh my God. He listens to me. It's like, he should be fucking on like, he should be hanging on our word. Every word. Yeah. I mean like, is that too, like, I don't don't think that's too much.
Libby: I don't think it, you, you do.
Julia: You do. I do, though. If you do meet somebody else, that's intriguing. I do need you to tell me straight up. Because I don't wanna find out from the day planner. Like that sounds all
Libby: of course of and same. Yeah.
Julia: Oh God. Um, were there any favorite scenes you had in this movie? Like what are some of favorite, some of your favorite scenes?
Libby: I really do. I really do love that end scene. I always forget about it cuz it's just so, um, I love this secretary, like Ms. Baxter. Like I love Melanie Griffith's secretary, cuz she kind of is just like, she has her own attitude. She's like, can you not call me a secretary? I prefer assistant. Yeah. Uh, like she's like kind of cutting edge.
Libby: Um, I also have to say there's this one scene, you know, when Catherine gets off the helicopter. Yes, she came. Okay. So this is just like a funny little tidbit. My boyfriend from college. His aunt Margaret is the woman standing next to Melanie Griffith, who wheels the wheel, who wheels, Kathryn Parker's wheelchair.
Libby: And it's so like, I know this woman, like I like spent a couple years with her. She was like, my boyfriend's aunt Margaret. So I do love that scene. Cause it's like there's Margaret. Yeah. Um, so that's just kind of fun, but I also, Ugh, I hate to say it cause we just trashed all of Jack trainer's stuff. Yeah.
Libby: but like, uh, I kind of like the scenes with the two of them. Cause they're cute. I mean, I like the bar scene. I like the bar scene. That's the one I was gonna say. Yeah. She's just so like she's, she's powerful, but she's feminine. She's sexy, but she's vulnerable. He's kind of like charming, you know, I can't help it.
Libby: I like it. Yeah.
Julia: I dunno. What are your favorites? What do you like? I love the bar scene when they first meet, but I'm a sucker for a mEq. I'm such a sucker for a me. Um, And just that sort of like mysteriousness, I loved it, loved it. And then I loved it when she like turns and she's like, oh shit, I'm gonna get called out.
Julia: Cuz that other lady was there. And she's very, very like, here's, I'll meet you outside with the coat check ticket and yeah. And he's completely unsuspecting. So it was beautifully
Libby: executed and he is just like, oh my God, I'll go wherever she goes, Uhhuh,
Julia: Uhhuh. Um, and then I love the scene where she and Joan ack are in the, in, uh, Katherine's closet.
Julia: oh
Libby: my 6,000. You even love the, yeah. I mean everything with Joan, I was gonna say I actually, and I, I filmed it on my phone, like when I was watching it cuz and I save it. I'll rewatch. It it's the best I love when Jack comes to the office and Joan has to be her secretary Uhhuh and so she's like, let's give her a shout and then she's like you decent.
Libby: And then the whole like coffee, tea meet, like that's a huge, that's like a saying coffee, tea, meet, like. That's so like Joan Kuk brilliance. Yeah. And I think that's, and I think actually in that scene, Harrison Ford was laughing at her, like not scripted. Like he, she was just like making him laugh. Yeah. And he was just kind of like breaking out of character.
Libby: So that actually might be my favorite scene. That's
Julia: a great scene too, but you're right. Joan adds so much to everything she's in, even in, in, in roles that are more serious. Yeah. 16, 12. Yeah. But even in roles that are more serious. Cuz I was thinking of her. I had a friend on last season who talked about, say anything and you know, she's the older
Libby: sister.
Libby: Oh my God. I love her. And that, and she's a serious
Julia: character, but she's so good. Like she almost steals the scene every single time. She's in a scene with John.
Libby: She's also, I think my number one role for her is have you ever seen toys, which is so obscure, it is the most OBS you, you need to see it list is Williams it's with Robin Williams.
Libby: Yeah.
Julia: And Robin, the cupboard it's blue with a pat and
Libby: yeah. And Robin Wright. Well, Robin Wright pen, Robin Wright. Yeah. She, but Joan Kuzak, she plays the most bizarre wacky. I don't even know what she is. Yeah. Her lines are so out there. And my sister and I were obsessed with her in this movie when we saw it, this was nineties.
Libby: Um, so she can, she can fucking do anything. Yeah. So yeah. Anything with Joan Kuk in this movie is just, she just ups it up like 10 notches.
Julia: Yeah. She's amazing. Um, at the end of the movie, when Kathryn calls her out in the big meeting mm-hmm and. but she knows nothing about the deal, right? Like how did you come up with this idea?
Julia: And so like that whole scenario, that whole situation, like that was just like the whole, I mean, I knew how I've seen the movie. I knew how it was gonna end, but I still had this like, yeah. Moment.
Libby: It's so awkward and embarrassing.
Julia: Yeah. Mm-hmm because she storms in and was like, do you have any idea who you're dealing with?
Julia: This is a secretary. She is a liar. She is scamming you, but we know this whole time. She's not like the idea's brilliant. It's totally gonna work all these things. And I thought that was really interesting how committed Ney Weaver was to be she's like lying. Yes. Like how you were committed to this lie to say that that TES is a thief to the point where you're just like, you it's like scary.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. That was intense. That was intense to me. Yeah. Um, yeah. And then when they ask her, well, where did you get the idea from? It's like, almost like,
Libby: oh God, I don't even wanna watch this. Cuz she it's so awkward
Julia: and her, and you could see it in her eyes where she's like, oh shit.
Libby: And she's like, Jack help me out.
Libby: And he's like, mm mm. I actually feel bad for her in that scene. A little big cause it's like, oh God, this is hard to watch. Yeah. Although she's still like, I, I will not stand for someone talking to me like that. Like it's, she's still kind of like, fuck all of you. I don't care. Like it's kind of, I don't know it, I, I kind of root for her.
Libby: Maybe it's just where I'm at in my life right now. I'm so pro female pro goddess pro strong woman. It's like I'll overlook. A lot of things lately, because a woman just has it harder and she's gotta do what she's gotta do. And, you know, even she was kind of like walking with her tail between her legs and that scene, it's like, oh, that kind of sucks.
Libby: I mean, you totally brought on yourself. You completely were terrible and fucked yourself. But in that scene I'm like, oh, that sucks.
Julia: Yeah. Cuz it's again, back to the whole, like you have to do what you have to do to survive because the statistics are there. You're not gonna make it any further if you don't, which is really sad and horrific and just a Testament to how much these men wanna hang onto the top.
Julia: they're willing to pit us against each
Libby: other. You know, I thought about that in this, like when she walks away like that, I thought, do you think her career would actually struggle after that? And I feel like, I know, I feel like it would cuz I think the guy, you know, the trash guy was like, I'll, I'll make sure you never work again.
Libby: Or, you know, he said something like that and I kind of feel like, you know what? I think that she'll be okay. This was just sort of like a fluke. I don't, I think she was high enough, high up enough and just savvy enough that I don't think that anybody had the power to like ruin her career over something like that.
Libby: But I don't know. It was just a question that I pondered like, huh? I wonder if she'll be okay. Or if she'll just like, if that incident like destroyed her. Yeah. How
Julia: do you. You know, I actually didn't think about it because that's such a, that's such a Hollywood thing to do is when someone sort of like messes up like that and then yeah.
Julia: Ill ruin you forever. Mm-hmm , I'll ruin you, you are ruined, you will never work in this town again. Yeah. Kind of stuff like that's so that's so classical. Like,
Libby: is that necessary? Really? Yeah.
Julia: Like don't threaten people like that. That's not okay. Um, but that's an interesting ponder because I do wonder if she would be okay.
Julia: I mean, she could go, I mean, new York's the big city to do whatever it is that they do with numbers. Oh yeah.
Libby: I would like to think she'd be,
Julia: but she could go to London and do the same job. Like there's often there's companies in London that work with, like, if I know anything about whatever is this job that she does is
Libby: there's companies, mergers and acquisitions.
Libby: Yeah. There's
Julia: companies over the world that need that. Skill set.
Libby: So I'm sure. Yeah. Or just like, don't deal with that particular company ever again. Yeah. Yeah. But nobody gives it. I don't, I think she'd be
Julia: okay. Yeah.
Julia: Every Tuesday night you can tune into Instagram live and watch still comfy a show where Julia Washington host of pop culture makes me jealous. And Natalie Catton host of, to all the men I've tolerated before. Take a deep dive into pop culture properties. They once loved to see if they still stand the test of time or view new iterations of beloved shows, celebrity, biopics, and television, reboots of movies or old ideas in addition to co-producing.
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Julia: And you could think about it back then, or you could think about it in modern day.
Libby: Yeah. So what's so funny is I'd love to have like a super deep profound answer to this question, but I'm gonna do, I'm gonna default to my go to which is full blown honesty, even if it's weird and embarrassing. I don't know if it informed my, I don't know if it affected me all that much because really I still kind love powerful, wealthy women, asshole character.
Libby: Yes. What's wrong with me? Why am I, why do I love it? I dunno. That's
Julia: okay though, if you do.
Libby: Yeah, it, yeah, I think that, um, I mean, I also think it's just basic things. Like, you know, if I think about back then, I mean, there are so many strong women characters in the media actually like, thankfully, I mean, you can there's mil.
Libby: Okay. Thousands, hundreds. There's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that this was just one of many and I mean, it does stand out in a way, because there's not a ton of like women against women in business kind of storylines, like not in this way. Mm-hmm so it really was special in that way. Um, but I, I guess, and I think it, it is a Testament to like how well the movie, how well this Mo how good this movie is, because it didn't leave you feeling.
Libby: Like that was fucked up or there, those were like tied up like ends that were not tied up. Like everything was kind of like, okay. And there, it basically opened up a lot of, a lot more questions. It's such a brought up such a complex, all these kinds of things that there was some resolution in the plot, but like really, it just kind of like was more of like a, a capturing of like just what we're dealing with here.
Libby: So I think it was like really good vignette, but I don't know if it like informed me. I think I just I'm so superficial. I was like, she's awesome. And I just like
Julia: her. Is that terrible? no, I think that's fine. Cause I think, you know, there's something to it. Like. If I were cuz you know, I'm in California, right?
Julia: Yeah. So that whole, it's a little different. Yeah. It's a little different cuz that big New York sort of added, you know, cutthroat business type of stuff doesn't exist where I live and not because it's in New York, but because like that kind of, that kind of industry isn't here. So, so for me it's complete fiction, right?
Julia: Because I don't see those types of women in real life.
Libby: This is blowing my mind. This is, this is also like our friendship. This is like, cause, cause we have, we're such a like east coast, west coast, Uhhuh friendship. And it's so fascinating cuz we're always like pointing out like weird California and east coast things.
Libby: And it's like, we're always like blowing each other's minds. This is blowing my mind right now cuz you're to like, I, I literally work with women like this now and not in a bad, like not, but just powerful, brilliant, amazing women. And I did when I was in New York. Like, so I do see it a lot and I didn't even think that.
Libby: There are some environments where that just doesn't happen a lot. Mm-hmm oh my God. Mm-hmm mm-hmm
Julia: I mean, yeah. We have like a huge company here in town. It's like LinkedIn named it as one of the best companies to work at ever, but I wanna know who they talk to cuz all the people who I know work at that company are like, sure.
Julia: Um, oh my God. Wow. But so if I, if I had more interaction with that company, maybe I would see it. But you know, if you are like, but walking down the street, like when we were in New York in oh nine, I know it's been a while but when you were walking down the streets in New York, you're like, oh, that's a business person that clearly is, you know, a business.
Julia: Like there was just so much like hustle and bustle and like you could tell what was business and what was social. And like you had that delineation here. It's like, everyone's in jeans and we're chatting and like, oh my God,
Libby: that's what
Julia: that's so crazy. Yeah. Powerness doesn't exist if it does it, it, well.
Julia: I should say this, it exists in a different way. And you know, when we, even, even when I had to San Francisco, the vibe is different than what I felt when I was in, in New York. And what movies based in New York with high powered people feel like,
Libby: yeah, totally, totally not even close, I would say. Yeah. Oh my God.
Libby: That's so crazy. Think there's a lot. Yeah. I think that's like, there's a lot to that in terms of like how we even receive this movie. Mm-hmm in different ways. Mm-hmm totally.
Julia: Cause at first I was like, I get Tess's character. Like I finished school online because it was easier. Cause I had a kid and I get people make comments about that.
Julia: People kinda, you know, and it's just like, you know what? I had a kid and I needed to have something flexible. Cause there is a university, not that far from here where I could have transferred, but I would be locked in and it would be a 30 minute commute and it was just like all kinds of stuff. So. Online school is a lifesaver for me.
Julia: I still got a quality education, but,
Libby: but you know, you don't need to explain yourself or justify any of that. And
Julia: I agree with that said there are some people who are in positions of power, hiring power who see that and are like, Nope. And it's so frustrating. Cause you're just kind of like it's the 21st century.
Julia: Sure. Pedigree's a thing. And the right university is a thing, but should it still be a thing? So when TES is sort of battling that stereotype of being just a secretary. That hit. I was like, you really relate. Wow. Knew that storyline pretty well. And, you know, having great ideas and people stealing my ideas or saying my ideas louder.
Julia: And it was just like, I just said that like, oh my God, you're kidding me. But you know, going back to working girl and just that whole, what's your level of protection for yourself? Both for Catherine and for tests because Catherine's speech about like we're in it together. It's a two way street. You wanna believe that, especially when you're coming up.
Libby: I know. And, you know, even though we're talking about the differences between east and west coast, I still feel like, I feel like there is more women supporting women now mm-hmm, definitely than there was back then because women, I think have established certain places of power where they really can afford to help other women, or they got to where they were because some woman helped them.
Libby: Yeah. Or maybe a good man helps them. And so the whole pay it forward thing, like just the little by little, like the incremental progress. Mm-hmm I do think that that whole two way street thing, um, is more possible now I really do. But I think back then that the movie really captures the accuracy of how it was like every woman for herself, like, yeah.
Libby: Yeah. Do you.
Julia: Think that, or how do you feel, let me ask it this way. I get super frustrated when I meet women nowadays, who are still succumbing to the patriarchal mindset when it comes to like women and work and what should be happening. Yeah. How do you, like, do you come across women who still sort of buy into that BS and like how, how, cuz it makes me super uncomfortable and then I feel sad for them cuz it's like, oh, you're still brainwashed
Libby: yeah.
Libby: So, okay. There's do you mean like, cuz there's a couple different ideas I have like do you mean a woman who is more like of an Athena type who like aligns with a man or defends a man? Or do you mean a woman who doesn't assert herself
Julia: or which I, I think it's the first one. The, you know, the woman who sort of aligns the, with the man and, and defends me.
Julia: Yeah. And kind of upholds what men do. Yeah. Justifies it.
Libby: Yeah. I mean, I hate to sound like I'm in a bubble. I mean, I do work in academia at an Ivy league university, so I'm surrounded by really smart women and academia in general, like promotes progressive thinking. So I don't come across the, I mean, I come across more women, which I fucking love who are bitching about the patriarchy.
Libby: Oh, like will, I mean, I have regular conversations with like female colleagues or friends and we're just like, oh my God. You know? And I see, you know, even, I mean, I witnessed just a couple days ago, it was a, a powerful woman who is sort of like paying lip service to this older man who was part of the, you know, you had some power and she was just like Uhhuh Uhhuh, you know, but then she like kinda.
Libby: Turned to me, it was just like, I'm not doing any of that. And I was like, yes. You know? Um, and I was, I mean, that just made me like, love her. Cause I was just like, she knows she's smart enough to know, just nod your head. Yeah. Do what you gotta do, because that is the smartest thing. But she's also not afraid to be assertive with men.
Libby: I've seen her do that too. So I just don't, don't see that a lot in my particular work environment. And I haven't seen that, honestly, in all the other, like a lot of my previous job, like a woman was running the department or when I worked at the met museum, a woman was president. She, Emily Rafferty was like badass.
Libby: So. I feel like if I do see women doing that, I often do. I don't know if I would say feel bad for them, but I usually am like, I know what they're doing here. I know what they're doing here. I think they're doing it in order to survive and really to get ultimately what they want. Mm-hmm , they're just having to like do this, but I know my sister does work, you know, like I know people who work in environments where there are like more like brainwashed, vacant women mm-hmm and it's really sad.
Libby: It's really bizarre. Like, how do you, how it's 20, 22? How are you like doing this? Mm-hmm um, so yeah, but I'm lucky enough that I don't see that a lot. That's good.
Julia: And I think that's the future and I think that's why everyone, people are scared right now, because it's not just women. You've got people who are challenging gender norms too.
Julia: And you've got people who are sort of saying like, Hey, you know how y'all were living. We don't like it, it actually doesn't work.
Libby: everything's gonna have to change. And nobody likes change, especially we're white. We're ruining white male's life or just anybody who benefits from the patriarchy. They're gonna go down kicking and screaming.
Libby: Oh yeah. Why would, would they give, they have a sweet deal? Why would they give this stuff? Yeah,
Julia: they already are.
Libby: they're gonna have to, oh yeah. It, this is just the beginning. Oh God. I just hope we all. I just hope we're not all like killed before. Oh yeah. Yeah.
Julia: Something happens seriously. Cause listen, at the end of the day, I don't wanna be so stressed out about how mom pay my bills and where I'm gonna live.
Julia: Totally. Like we should all enjoy more than survival. Like I don't understand why we have to just all survive like that. Doesn't make any sense to me.
Libby: We're gonna wrap it now. okay. I'm in the dark. Sorry. It's like it got dark. Yeah. And the light's gone. I'm sorry about that.
Julia: that's okay. According to fortune quote 44 female chief executives spearheading America's largest companies, women now run 8.8% of businesses on the 2022 list.
Julia: That's up from 8.2% in 2021. When women led 41 of the 500 companies and six times their share two decades ago when women led just seven fortune 500 businesses. End quote. What I see in Catherine as a woman who in order to survive must play into the, her sexuality while still maintaining. A woman who works in a male dominated industry and likely doesn't receive any respect or credit for her work.
Julia: As often as her counterparts, a woman who was misguided and missed the opportunity to work directly with tests regarding the deal, this challenging the norms of the day. Instead, what we have is yet another film that reinforces the idea that there is only room for one woman. And while Katherine's pride got in the way I see it as a byproduct of the system in which she must operate, we have to say, thank you again to Libby for coming back this season.
Julia: It's always a joy when I get to see you in live time, I love our chats. And, um, I'm just so glad you're here. Can you remind everybody where they can find you if they wanna keep
Libby: up with you? Uh, yes, you can follow me on Instagram at the goddess attainable and check out my blog, which is just the goddess attainable.com.
Julia: Yes. And we will link everything in this show, notes, friends. So that way you have easy access and no excuses to not check out. Our favorite P Libby pop culture makes me jealous, is written, edited and produced by me, Julia Washington. And I am fueled by the incredible support system of women who allow me to run ideas, cry, melt down.
Julia: Whenever I feel overwhelmed. I also wanna do a big shout out to our Patreon community. Thank you for your continued support. It brings me great joy to bring you quality content and monthly. Get togethers. Thanks for tuning in y'all until next time.
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