White Christmas | 18
Show Notes:
This week host Julia Washington discusses White Christmas with her son. They explore what the love about this 1954 classic, areas that didn't age well, and what it means to make an adaptation of a film.
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The Show: Pop Culture Makes Me Jealous
The Host: Julia Washington
Transcript:
Julia: Hey friends. Welcome to pop culture makes me jealous. And I'm your host, Julia. And on today's show, we are talking about one of my favorite holiday movies with one of my favorite people, white Christmas, and my kid who chuckled. Why did you chuckle, chuckle?
Jackson: What are you talking about?
Julia: I heard a little bit of the chocolate.
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white Christmas released on October 14th, 1954, and stars, Bing Crosby, Danny Kaye, Rosemary Clooney, and bureau Ellen. This film is. To war buddies, Crosby and Kay, who develop a professional music relationship. Once world war II ends, they meet and fall for two sisters Clooney and Ellen and follow the women tour resort.
And for month, which is owned by their former commanding officer, who's in danger of losing the place. This movie is chocked full of singing and dancing with the music and lyrics by Irving, Berlin and choreography by Bob Fosse, who went on credited. This is one of my all time favorite holiday flicks, but first let me introduce you to my guest.
Jackson is my favorite human and loves movies and tell them. Just as much as I do this former baseball player now spends his time creatively by dabbling in photography and training and theater. Not only is he my favorite human, he's also a pretty good conversation when it comes to films. Jackson, welcome to the show.
Your dog is acting weird. Well,
Jackson: she's our dog.
Julia: She's my dog. When she's behaved. She's your dog when she's behaving badly. Yeah. Okay. So that's fun.
On October 15th, 1954, the New York times writer Bosley Crouther wasn't so forgiving about this now holiday staple stating paramount to put it simply has done white Christmas up brown, but oddly enough, the confection is not so tasty as one might suppose. The flavoring is largely in the lineup and not in the output of the cooks.
Everyone works hard at the business of singing, dancing, and cracking jokes, but the stuff they work with is minor. It doesn't have the old inspiration and spark. Despite the New York times review the film was a box office head. And over the years, this film has become a major holiday tradition with movie theaters and cable networks, scheduling airings of this Vista vision dream boat.
And it is definitely a holiday tradition in our home. So Jackson, I want to start with, what do you love about white Christmas and why?
Jackson: I think. Well, it's probably one of my favorite Christmas movies. And I think because it feels like Christmas, I think too, as I've gotten older, it feels more similar to where the Christmas feels now, where until we really.
To Christmas. It doesn't really feel like Christmas season. I think part of that is because, you know, we live in the middle of California, but you know, all of December, it just feels like winter. I'm not like, oh, Christmas is right around the corner. Even this week, Christmas is only a few days away in my mind.
That's like, oh, we still have so much longer until Christmas. It doesn't feel like Christmas time. And my Christmas kind of does that similarly with. The movie where, you know, at the beginning they show up there, like they expect to show up to Vermont and it's going to be full of snow and it's going to be, you know, the perfect Christmas vacation.
And then they get there and there's no snow. And so they have to kind of develop their own Christmas with what they've got and eventually on Christmas. And when they do the show, it does snow. But you know, you still have that kind of. Lack of Christmas feeling, I guess a Christmas movie.
Julia: Yeah, no, I get it because here where we are in California, there are still leaves falling off of trees last week.
Yeah. And that's very much fall weather. And whereas other parts of the country, like our cousins in Minnesota have been posting videos about snow for weeks. And I'm like, what? Snow? I don't understand why you keep posting this video or why do you live there?
Jackson: I mean, even if we were to go up, you know, just a few miles up north into the mountains and feel more like Christmas.
Cause they could, well, not as much snow as you know, back east or anything, but still more sun than we get here.
Julia: Definitely. I think this is one of my favorite movies because it, I don't know the singing and the dancing is just so well done. I mean, Vira Ellen does not do her own singing. She's not a singer, but she is an incredible dancer and watching her.
Perform. It's just always so amazing. I don't remember if you, I don't remember if I've watched anything else with her that, um, you would have seen on the town. She's really good. And on the town it's with, um, Jean Kelly and Frank Sinatra.
Jackson: Yeah. I don't think I've seen that.
Julia: I think that was. The first time. I remember seeing her, even though we've been watching white Christmas my entire life.
I like what you said about how it feels like Christmas and you know what, it's interesting that you bring up how they show up to Vermont and it's not very cold and it's not covered in snow. That's so
Jackson: California. Yeah, I think, I think that's why it feels like Christmas to me is so many Christmas movies, you know, really focus on the snow and like even in home alone where the focus isn't necessarily on Christmas itself, but, you know, just on Kevin and.
You know, trying to live without his family. Is there still like a heavy focus on it's cold? It's winter, you scared of the furnace, whereas, you know, here, I mean, I'm sure for a lot of people with how cold it gets here, we wouldn't have to turn on the heater. Right? Like we're turning on the heater at like 60 degrees at night.
Cause all we're so cold, but really, I mean, it's not that cold. Yeah. And
Julia: comparison. I love the line that Danny Kay says when he gets off the train, when they realize that Vermont isn't covered in still and he's like, oh, I'm going to have to return it. Lincoln and being Crosby says, well, where's that? And he's like under the long underwear, Danny, Kate is really such a great character.
Um, and, and in that movie, plus he's just an amazing actor. Yeah, he's so much fun to watch and white Christmas, he's got the funny quips, he's got a big personality and he pushes being Crosby's character to do things that are outside of his comfort zone. And I just love that about him.
Jackson: I think he's definitely one of my favorite characters and, you know, for all those reasons, he's just fun and he's fun to watch on screen.
And he's a very good dancer. I love that scene with him. And, um, oh, what's, what's her name?
Julia: Ellen. She plays.
Jackson: The younger one, right? Yeah. Yeah. When they're dancing in the beginning of the movie, that's all, that's always been one of my favorite scenes, even from when I was younger. K. I mean, I've always liked the movie, but I've grown to appreciate it more now.
But even when I was younger, that was still one of my favorite scenes.
Julia: Yeah. It's a beautiful dancing. I love, you know, they dance on top of the boat, the tr the upside down boat. It took me years to realize what's an upside down boat, by the way. I don't know. I think I was 20 by the time I realized that, um, and just how much they flow and grace together.
It's just so beautiful. Yeah. Since 1954, the conversation about menstrual shows and blackface and the racist structures of Hollywood have been called into cultural conversation more so over the last two years than ever before, there is a dance number in the film. I'd rather see a menstrual show slash Mr.
Bone slash Mandy minstrel shows were widely popular in the 19th century and featured comic enactment of racial stereotype. White actors with dark in their faces with shoe Polish or burnt cork and perform for largely white audiences. We've never really talked about menstrual shows or the history behind them.
I mean, I don't think we have, it's never really been a topic of conversation here in our house. I didn't raise you on Shirley temple movies the way I was, and I want to speculate on something. How could this scene be modified to remove the longing for minstrel shows and still have a large scale musical number and keeping true to the themes of the movie?
Because if you remember, it's multiple, it's a huge production, you know, at the there it's. Rosemary Clooney being Crosby and Danny came in the beginning and then it ends up being the entire company. And at the end of year, Ellen does this amazing dance number with all of these men dressed in green and red.
It's just sparkly and fabulous and showy. But then when you peel back the layers and you're like, oh, I am in socials are kind of trashed. And we shouldn't really be like longing for them. It's. The oh, it's like a double-edged sword because on the one hand that scene is beautifully performed. But on the other hand, what they're talking about is garbage.
Jackson: Yeah. I mean, I love that scene too. It's one of my favorite numbers in the whole show, just because of how grand it is and, you know, the costumes are amazing it's but when, whenever I watched that scene, I was like, oh yeah, you know, I mean, I can forget what they're talking about while I'm watching it.
Cause I can just watch them dance. But you know, as you watch it, you kind of have to go with this. The best topic, I guess, for this number. And two, it kind of almost feels out of place in the movie. You know, it's like racial themes. Aren't something that's present in white Christmas for the rest of the movie.
So it kind of feels out of nowhere and I get that it like it fits because it's there. But I think if that scene had never been in the movie in that way in the first place to begin with. Feel the same way that it does. Like if someone were to say rewrite the movie and put it in there, you know, we'll be like, well, why is this here?
Like, it doesn't relate to anything else. I mean, sure. It's a fun number, but why would you, like what possessed you to put this in this movie? And I get that, you know, for the time it wasn't necessarily inappropriate, but still watching it now. It's like, well, who decided to put it in there in the first place?
Like, it didn't need to be in there and sure. It should be changed and it should have been changed. Um, and I understand that at the time it would make sense for nobody to really protest it and be like, well, you know, this, this is actually a horrible thing to put in this movie. Like, why should we do that?
Cause it was fine for that time, but it's just so. Weird, I guess, to look at now and be like, well, why would they put this here? Obviously, you know, what's 70 ish years later, you know, we can look at it and go, that's wrong. Why would they do that?
Julia: Yeah. And I wonder how many people actually understood that minstrel shows were rooted in very much, uh, very much rooted in racial prejudice because when I was a kid that wasn't, that wasn't a thing we talked about.
Growing up. It wasn't a conversation, you know, I, I knew blackface was bad. We, we didn't really directly talk about blackface specifically, but we knew that it was like, you just don't do that. This is just not how we behave. But, and I don't know if it's because I grew up in a mixed household or what, but that history behind a menstrual show, I didn't learn about that until I was much older.
I actually think when I see. Doing my own personal research on and study of Hollywood and performance, because I feel like we've always had, we've always been a family and for you on both sides, um, uh, performers and people who have appreciate the arts and appreciate, you know, this, um, medium, because that's the type of personalities we are.
We're not suited really,
but. As a mixed child at the age of, I don't know, 16, 17, 18 years old. I'm learning more about this concept. And then it's like, holy shit. And then you get older and realize like what you said, no, one's going to question it in 1954, probably because the entire set was white, probably because the entire cast was white, probably because every producer was white, probably because everybody in the movie studio business was white.
So no one thinks that it's a problem. And so people who are represented in the community start speaking up, which is really scary to do, especially.
Jackson: Oh yeah. And too though, it's I don't think that's necessarily the right way to look at it to say, oh, well, they wouldn't have necessarily known that it was. I think that was like a rooted in racism and like purposely trying to mock a group of people.
Cause I mean, that was the key component of a minstrel show. That was the point, you know, I mean, yes, there must be comedy or whatever, but the root of that comedy was to punch down essentially. And obviously as a child, you're not going to necessarily know any better because. Who's going to tell you that unless you have, especially like when you were growing up in the eighties and nineties, who's going to tell you that.
I mean, it's more commonplace now to be taught those things when you're younger, especially even in school. Um, but I mean, back then, it's not like you had a group of 17 and 18 year olds producing this movie. I mean, Bing Crosby was already an established actor at that point. Like he was a fully grown person.
And
Julia: the Rosemary Clooney his love interest, by the way.
Jackson: Yeah. But you know, I don't think there's anybody on that set who in there who didn't know that it's wrong to put on minstrel shows? I think it just was so accepted as something. Yeah, that was normal.
Julia: Oh, okay. I, yeah. Cause like it's the whole thing, the same kind of way we handle colorblindness, right?
Like colorblindness was 100% normal when I was growing up. You're all the same. Everyone's the same. No, one's different. And then fast forward 30 years. And it's like, no, that shit's harmful. And now we know it's harmful. Right. Gotcha.
And the movie needs a large, I think the movie needs a large scale number because they are these, you know, huge musical producers. So it just is unfortunate. It's just unfortunate when you fast forward 70 years and you realize like, this is. It feels icky, but you love it because the dancing and the singing is amazing and the costumes are incredible, but it also, you love it, but it feels icky.
Yeah.
Jackson: Yeah. And I think, you know, the only way that we could really see a different version of that in that movie is to do a complete remake of it, which, you know, I, I wouldn't. Necessarily want to see a remake. I feel like it's some way I feel about less side story. I know you did an episode on that recently.
Um, w you know, the remake was good and it was a lot of fun and I enjoyed it. But at the end of the day, if I had to choose between that and the original movie, I'm going to watch the original movie, because it was the original creators. Sure. There was a play beforehand. So you could say, well, if you really want to get down to the root of the creativity, you should watch the play, but adapting it to fulfilling.
Is still such an intensive creative process and it sells a lot of that soul. I feel like remakes will lose a lot of that because you have to focus on capturing the emotion from the original and staying true to the original. I mean, unless you don't care, some remix will do that where they just don't care and they'll do whatever they want and use the same name and same characters and do something completely different with the story.
And I almost feel like that is a more, um,
Well, I guess true remake because I feel like completely redoing the story is a more through remake than, um, trying to just redo it shot for shot and change a few things with new actors and updated things, you know, but my point about white Christmas specifically, Is that there is no way that we're going to see real placement of that number without a remake.
And I, I think it'd be hard to sit here and say, well, we should change this scene or this part about that particular number and remove these things because. You can't see it and you'd have to completely rewrite it to see
Julia: that. I guess you touched on an interesting point though, because with remakes, we lose context in a way, Sarah and I were just having this conversation and a lot of times remakes aren't taking into consideration when the original work was created.
Right. So with your example with west side story, sure. Yeah, it takes place in 1957. But because it's a period piece, essentially there's elements to it that are going to exist. That don't feel good because it's 1957 and the world was shit for people of color in 1957. And I think the same could be said for white.
It's 1954, you know, the only black person we're going to see is the club car guy, because it's 1954 and stuff is still like schools still aren't even desegregated yet. Brown vs. Board of education hasn't happened yet. Yeah. Rosa parks hasn't refused to get off her seat yet, you know, so there's. About when you do a remake where you're losing context because of the era in which it was developed and the culture at the time.
And you're trying to keep it as a period piece, but then sort of modify it for cultural. Changes that have happened. And I don't know if anyone's found a balance yet to do that in a way where it still feels true to the era without feeling icky about that.
Jackson: And I think the best way to do that is exactly what west side story does to Romeo and Juliet, where it is, you know, essentially updating a previous piece of work, but adapting it for the modern era.
I don't think that you can properly remake something that was supposed to be. Modern. Yeah, because you lose that error, I guess, the air of the time. And so you don't, you miss out a lot of that nuance and context. Like if you're writing something about now, even unintentionally, the politics of, you know, the current state are going to seep into your writing.
And so if you try to adapt that in the future, the things that don't care. Over, you know, the day-to-day stuff that affects people. Um, isn't going to be there, right? Like sure. 20 years from now, people will remember Joe Biden is currently president people. Aren't going to remember necessarily what that means for everybody individually, which I think is what really creates an atmosphere of the time and why a lot of period pieces, even if they're the most historically accurate that we can make them, we'll never feel proper.
And so there'll always be sort of nostalgic romanticized pieces, unless they're specifically a critique.
Julia: That's an interesting point. That's a really interesting point. It is hard to when you live through the era of different remakes early, early a few weeks, a few episodes ago, we compared 1994 little women to 2019 little women and definitely two very different interpretations.
But I think that. They were successful in the 2019 version by capturing the essence of the source material. Yeah, because that's really hard. I mean, that's really hard to do, but you have to have a writer who has an affection for where it's coming from. And with west side story, you really feel the Romeo and Juliet theme strongly in that, especially in the 1961 film version.
Didn't wow. Now that I don't know if I got it as much in the night in the 2021 version of it being an adaptation of Romeo and Juliet, it felt more like an adaptation of the 1961 version. And your point about losing that sort of. The air and the era of that time, the cultural context really does get lost.
And I think that's why the 61 version is so much more powerful to me because you really feel the Shakespearian themes in it. Yeah. You can avoid it. They smack you in your face. And with everyone I've talked to, who's seen the 20, 21 version, but hasn't seen the 1961. They didn't realize it's an west side story is an adaptation is a, is a retelling of Romeo and Juliet.
So, you know, they've lost their roots, I
Jackson: guess. And to bring it back more in a white Christmas, what would happen? I think if you try to remake. It now, because even though why Christmas is specifically a Christmas movie, it's still a modern movie for its time. And it's not one of those movies where I think home alone is an example of like a timeless classic movie, because it's specifically a children's movie.
And so you kind of have that innocence of the world as a child. You know, it's not necessarily about, you know, Christmas time and Christmas spirit. It's more about, you know, learning to love your family. No matter who they are. Well, even if that isn't the most amazing message, because for, in some instances, maybe you shouldn't love your family.
Maybe there'll be horrible people, but learning to live with your family, assuming that they're overall good to you. Um, and then, you know, some fun trying to fight off bad guys where, you know, you're just a kid. I think white Christmas is two plays with too many, um, themes as. An adult, I guess, um, to be brought into 20, 21, to be completely remade.
Um, and to remove the, maybe more unsavory elements like the minstrel show number, it just, I don't think that it could be done and people would still have the same feelings about it. I think no one is going to go out and replace. The 1954 version with, uh, whatever remake year would be
Julia: sure. And I don't even know if it, I, because of how big and broad the world is now.
Right. You can be famous on Instagram, famous on tech talk, but still millions of people don't know who you are. Yeah. The kind of star power and quality that Rosemary Clooney, Bing Crosby Vira Ellen had at that time. And just the way they carved out their niches in an, in the entertainment industry, literally nobody comes to mind who could fill their shoes.
Jackson: I mean, the only celebrities we have now that really have the same kind of. Stardom is people like the rock. And I don't necessarily think that the rock has going to be great in a musical number. I mean, I guess he could, I'm not saying that he wouldn't be, but you know, I don't think that, you know, getting a movie full of people on like the rock and VIN diesel and that kind of like, that's a fast and furious movie, you know?
No, one's expecting them to go out and remake like Christmas.
Julia: Right, right. And a listicle published by good housekeeping on December 13th, 2019, titled 25 surprising things about white Christmas that even movie buffs don't know included many facts. I already knew, but the ones I didn't know, include. Fred Astaire was supposed to play Phil Davis.
That's Danny. Danny Kaye was choice number three. I didn't know that Irving Berlin changed the lyrics in gee. I wish I was in the army because the original line is Crosby hope and Jolson all for free, which they'd changed it. And I can't remember off the top of my head, what they changed it to. And I should, because it's my.
Christmas musical. Another fun fact is that being Crosby's granddaughter, Denise Crosby was in star Trek, the next generation. And the reason why friends, this is a fun fact is because my father literally watched star Trek. The next generation. On repeat. And I remember this character cause when they pulled up the article and they showed a picture of her, I was like, oh, I know exactly who that is.
I didn't know she was being crossed in his granddaughter. But my favorite fun fact is George Securus, who is famously known as Bernardo. The leader of the sharks in west side story is in the scene at the carousel club, which is a very long way to lead us into a conversation about our favorite song and dance numbers, which I think we already touched on.
But let's do it again. What is your favorite song and dance number of the film and
Jackson: why? I think choreography is 100%. My favorite. Every time it comes on, I, I think it's the most fun. I think it's the most. I wouldn't say timeless. I think it's definitely very 1954, um, modern for
Julia: at
Jackson: the time. Yeah. For its time.
It definitely was. And it is, I think it just has the most play, you know, all of the other ones have a very set, um, theme and what they're going for. Whereas I think. That number dips into so many different things while just being fun. And it's not necessarily supposed to be specifically Christmas, but you know, it's not, not Christmas.
And you just have all of, it's still a fairly large scene, like the minstrel show number, but it's. Not about a menstrual show. Um, and I, I just love that and I love the music. I love the dancing. The costumes are all very, um, understated, so it really is more about the dancing. And it's just one of my it's one of my favorites.
Julia: It's very, in my mind, like I see the beatnik vibe, which was such a huge movement in the fifties, right. Or I don't know if it was a huge movement, but it was definitely a movement of the fifties. My favorite it's a really hard decision to make. But the one song that I listened to all year long regardless of time of year is gee.
I wish I was in the army. Which is hilarious for so many reasons that we will not share here, but I just thought that was so much fun. And then I also love the carousel scene. I had a Barbie who had that dress, which one's the curse Holsey when she's at the carousel club, she's left because you know, being's a liar, but he wasn't really a liar.
Um, the meddling made relate false information. Um, and so she leaves breaks up the act, goes to New York and then gets a job at the carousel club and a singing she's singing. It's not blue sky. Cause she tries to get them to change it to blue skies, but it's a different
Jackson: song. That's right. Because he shows up and then she's like, oh, I want to do different song.
And then it's too late. And he gets in a bin Crosby's character gets to watch.
Julia: Yeah. And then later she realizes like, oh, I was wrong. I should have. I don't know how to conversation about what I overheard from the freaking maid housekeeper she's. I mean, that's how
Jackson: you create tension in any show though. I mean, any sit-com that's pretty much always what happens.
Someone over here is something and then nobody clarifies and that's the whole, I mean, that's how you get the tension, right?
Julia: But I love that song because I think Rosemary Clooney, his voice is so powerful in it. And then also too, I had a Barbie who had that dress. So of course I was just like, she's like my Barbie dumb.
Did you have a favorite character?
Jackson: Um, I don't know. I not really. I just. Like to watch the movie, I guess I feel like that's always the hardest question for me about most,
Julia: especially when it's like an ensemble situation.
Jackson: Yeah. Where there isn't really a set main character. Cause I think when there's a set main character, it's easier to say, oh, this side character is my favorite because it's, you know, it's just about those people at one person.
And so the off characters kind of have a little, I guess, more, um, not necessarily personality, cause there's still like 2d characters for the most part. Um, but just. Generally more different and it's supposed to be less of like a full person. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah. Because the sh the movie doesn't work, unless there's all four of them there, then it's a completely different story.
Yeah. As of 2021, the single white Christmas has sold over 50 million copies and the screen production has been adopted for stage. I also can't help, but wonder if this movie is only for white people and whether or not the influence of my Italian mother had anything to do with my love for this movie, because again, There's a couple like that one, the scene show scene.
I didn't know it was a problem. And so I was a teenager and to, you know, it's just there, weren't a whole lot of musicals in the fifties that starred black actors and actresses, which is really a bummer. When you think about all of the talent that existed back then, Jackson, thank you so much for taking the time today to chat with me about one of our holiday traditions.
Of course. So chatty, I don't know friends, if you want to keep up with us between episodes, you can find us on Instagram at pop culture makes me jealous. We will be taking a short break for the Christmas and new year holiday, but we will be showing up on Instagram during that time. I hope you all have a wonderful holiday season and a very happy new year.
Thanks for tuning in.
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