Mental Health & High School | 13
Show Notes:
More recently Mental Health has been a major topic of conversation, from the impacts of social media to the pandemic, there are more studies now than ever before that highlight what teens today are experiencing.
Host Julia Washington and guest Anne Fuestal discuss Inside Out, Charlie Bartlett and It's Kind of a Funny Story and mental health representation in movies.
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The Show: Pop Culture Makes Me Jealous
The Host: Julia Washington
The Guest: Anne Fuestal
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Transcript:
Julia: Hey friends, this is pop culture makes me jealous where we discuss pop culture through the lens of race or gender. And sometimes both. I'm your host, Julia Washington, and on today's show. We're discussing mental health in high school with guest and Feustel.
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Julia: More recently mental health has been a major topic of conversation from the impacts of social media, to the pandemic. There are more studies now than ever before that highlight what teens today are experiencing. And our episode titled smash the patriarchy with facts. I lightly touched on my mental state in 2016 through 2019, but the truth of the matter in hindsight is that I was likely depressed, but in denial about it, for me, the depression was caused by a situation beyond my control.
Julia: And the more I tried to better my life, the harder I fell, the more I leaned on just having a good time, numbing the pain and hiding from nearly all responsibilities. With few exceptions, my kid in graduate school. In today's world, nearly one in five or 52 million adults are living with a mental illness, according to the national Institute for mental health.
Julia: And the CDC reports that between 2009 and 2019, there has been a 40% increase in mental illness and teens with more than one in three high school students having experienced persistent feelings of sadness or hopelessness, despite the efforts to normalize mental health, illness, wellness, and care stigma still persists.
Julia: But before we dive into our discussion, I want to introduce you to my guest. And Feustel is a writer, business owner, editor, proofreader data entry, tech, and transcriber, because she had. Struggled with her own mental health issues. She feels called to be an advocate for others who have the same challenges.
Julia: Her goal is to help everyone find easily accessible ways to improve their mental health. She wrote the book, our favorite movies, how films affect our mental health and welcome to the show. And I think you're the perfect guest for today's topic.
Anne: Thank you so much. I'm excited to
Julia: be here. I'm excited.
Julia: You're here. Can you tell us a little bit about your book?
Anne: Sure. So my book, um, is about how mental health and movies intersect. Um, I discovered, um, about six years ago that my entire life I've been using, watching movies as a form of mental health care. I've been dealing with depression since 10, uh, diagnosed with bipolar disorder and generalized anxiety disorder and movies have always been there for me.
Anne: And, um, through my research, I've found that, you know, true for so many people that movies help your mood can help make you kinder connect with others, understand yourself, understand others. Um, it can even make some children less aggressive. Um, if they go through something called a snip cinema therapy support group.
Julia: Oh, I love that. I love that. I am a big ad. I mean, I love TV movies. I love that. There's something out there that gives us language when we don't have the language ourselves. I think that's so important. And even though we focus a lot on recent gender in this show, you almost, you almost can't pivot away from mental, mental health either because some of the things that you mentioned, you know, I watch Gilmore girls every fall because it's a comfort show.
Julia: I know what's going to happen. Fall's always very anxiety-ridden because there's a lot happening with back to school and the financial stress of back to school. And then every holiday, no one demands starts, you know, And it's just a big thing. So Gilmore girls brings me peace.
Anne: It's an amazing show. I've been, I should've worn my Gilmore girls shirts because I have fun.
Anne: It says Luke's on it. So
Julia: pop culture can often be harmful or hurtful. And in the case of mental illness, it could be argued that it is more hurtful until the nineties when movies like mad love and Virgin suicides, even then there was a very specific lens. These themes were viewed through in the two thousands movies like 13 and girl interrupted come to mind.
Julia: But even when movies and television don't portray characters with mental illness, there's something comforting about our favorite shows and titles. And in 2020, we saw more people writing about why we returned to movies and television. We have seen over and over again. So, and I want to start with talking about your relationship with mental health and what led you to write the book.
Julia: Can you share with our friends at home more about.
Anne: Sure. Yeah. So, like I said, you know, I've been diagnosed with bipolar and generalized anxiety disorder that happened in my early twenties, but when I was around 10 years old, I was that's when my depression started. And when I started thinking about dying by suicide.
Anne: So that's been going on, um, in my head since then. Um, even when I'm at my best, I, I sometimes just have fleeting thoughts of suicide. So when something I've had to sort of accept and also be cognizant of when it gets worse kind of thing. So it's just something I've I've learned to live with. And, um, yeah, it, it's not easy and any sense of the word, but I do feel that I've also gained things like empathy through, you know, my.
Anne: My lifetime of, of mental health struggles. So, um, yeah, I got, I was hospitalized several times in college and then a few times after that, um, I did have, I've had two suicide attempts in my life. Um, and yeah, it, it it's, it's been rough, but I think I've gained so much knowledge in myself that I wouldn't necessarily have had if I hadn't done therapy and, and, you know, done different self-care techniques and medication, that kind of
Julia: thing.
Julia: Yeah. I think therapy should be something that, um, is standard issue. Um, so, you know, the scale of mental illness, is it, I mean, it's a spectrum, right? Like it's not as simple as you know, or it can be as simple as today was really hard and I needed to talk to somebody or it can be more severe than that, but at the end of the day, we all need somebody on the outside to help us understand what's going on in our minds, because we're too close.
Julia: We're just too close to the mirror for that. And I think that we don't do a good job in our country with supporting people through those issues. And we see that a lot with like postpartum depression too, or just our topic today, kids in high school and even. General like even just grief of like, Hey, you know, now I'm 40 in my life.
Julia: Isn't what I thought it would be. You know, there's, there's points in our life where we need support and it's so hard to access sometimes. And that just blows my mind. And it's just such a, it's not humane in my opinion, to make it so difficult to access, support like that.
Anne: No, it's sad. And, uh, you know, I really wish that wasn't the way it was in this country.
Anne: I wish that everybody could do therapy and not worry about, you know, the cost and also not worrying about the stigma. I mean that the stigma is something that's worldwide. Like, I don't know if that's ever going to completely go away. It's better than it was. It's definitely better than it was. I mean, I compare now to when I first got diagnosed with depression in my teenage years and.
Anne: Things are definitely better, but there's still not what they could be. Um, and you know, where I live in Colorado, you know, we're, we're at the bottom of the pack when it comes to the mental health care that we give that are interesting people in our state, which is pretty sad. And that just a lot of that goes towards funding.
Anne: You know what, you know, just what the, what, what money the state puts into mental health care is just not where it could be.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. I can't. Yeah. In California they do it's. I mean, well, I don't know, in our county it's hard because a lot of the programs, you either have to have a lot of money or you have to also have some other issue.
Julia: Like if you're not, if you're going to private pay, that's one thing. But, um, our county's behavioral health and recovery services, you know, the way and they have to, they have to prioritize depending on what the needs are. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to function. It is really hard to see, you know, somebody has, somebody has to have some sort of addiction issue as well in order to receive like treatment.
Julia: I mean, not in order to receive, but it's, it helps move you along in the process. And not everyone has an addiction issue along with some sort of mental health issue. So, so they kind of blur that line a little bit. Sometimes they do the best work that they can with the resources that they have and the support team that they have.
Julia: But it's hard to hire social workers. It's hard to hire a licensed therapists and I just don't know what the answer is, but I know that talking about these things helps move the needle forward. Yeah.
Anne: Yeah. That's, that's exactly right. It's just so important to talk about them and. The more we do that. The, you know, the more people are going to listen because it's just so, so important to do that.
Anne: Um, and, and so I thought I'd go into, um, why I wrote the book. Yeah, sure. So I had been working on, um, uh, basically a crisis line and I had gotten burnt out and I wanted to still do something with mental health. I wanted to stay in the field somehow, so I thought I would write about it. And, um, I had, uh, come to the realization, like I had said before that movies had always been there for me and sort of wanting to look at, you know, how do movies and, and mental health link up.
Anne: You know, who doesn't want to talk about two of their favorite subjects, right. If you can link them up. That's awesome. So, excuse me. So, yeah, so I decided to, you know, just do more research and also, um, I wasn't sure what type of book I wanted. And I talked to a woman who, I didn't know before I was just doing a networking thing with her and she says, well, don't you want to make the book personal?
Anne: You know? And I said, well, obviously that makes so much sense. So our favorite movies refers to 10 of the 12 movies that I focus on in the book are ones that my sister and I watched a lot growing up. I loved to watch together. Can you give it up? My sister and I are very different people and we, you know, we weren't always super close, but we love to watch movies together.
Anne: That was one of the ways we connected. Like our favorite movie to watch together was when Harry met Sally.
Julia: I love that movie so much. We have an episode in season two where my friend Libby comes on and we talk about when Harry met Sally and it was just it, you know, it's one, it's an again, it's one that I watch on repeat because we're coming up on Valentine's day.
Julia: So I need to get a fill. I like to watch it between like autumn and then Valentine's day is kind of the cutoff for me. Cause it feels so fall winter. And that again, it's that comfort. It feels like the right season to watch it. And then after Valentine's day, I'm like, I got to wait until October.
Anne: I got to see what cause they had a 30th anniversary.
Anne: Theater run through Alamo. So I watched that back in 2019, I went to the theater and it was just so nice to like, watch it with that theater full of people. You know, I really do. I haven't done that much during COVID is go to the theater, but I do love to do that.
Julia: I dragged my son sometimes whenever a classic films coming on big screen, I'm always like, I guess what we're doing on Sunday.
Julia: And he's just like, oh, I just want to be home all day. And I'm like, yeah, but what are we ever going to see this movie on the big screen? It literally came out six years ago. So never, this is our chance.
Anne: Exactly.
Julia: What are some of the titles in your book there? What some of the movies that you talk about in your book?
Anne: Sure. Um, so some of the movies and we'll, we'll talk about inside out later. Um, so other movies include, uh, the princess bride, uh, eternal sunshine of the spotless mind. Um, a league of their own fried green tomatoes, little women, as you talked about before previous that I loved that episode,
Anne: um, contact, uh, Joe versus the volcano, Brian, Tom
Julia: Hanks movie, and completely underrated.
Anne: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Tommy boy, um, defending your life, which is a movie about the afterlife then everybody's seen, but I think everybody should see it depending on your life. Um, so I just went out of order. So I don't remember which I think we'll stop there.
Anne: Yeah.
Julia: We need some mystery so people will buy the book. Yeah. The film inside out released in 2015 and is the story about Riley, a young girl uprooted from her Midwest life and moved to San Francisco, her emotions, joy, fear, anger, disgust, and sadness, conflict on how best to navigate a new city house in school.
Julia: The movie was met with critical and box office, a claim which paid off for pictures. Big time, the care and detail. The team behind this film poured into the work is clear with the final result, with 116 award nominations in total and winning a hundred of them, including the academy award for best animated feature film.
Julia: At the time of its release, the New York times had this. Quote, insight out turns a critical eye on the way the duty to be cheerful is imposed on children by well-intentioned adults and by the psychological mechanisms, those grown-up authorities help to install. Where's my happy girl. Riley's parents are fond of saying when she seems down and then the force smile, that results is quietly heartbreaking.
Julia: Not that Riley's mother and father are bad people. We see that their own heads are just as crowded as hers. They also have their own external worries and stresses, including a new house, a fledging business, and a child on the brink of a momentous change. So I want to talk about what it is about this movie that you love and why, and why is it so important for people to understand their emotions and how it plays into working with their mind and their mental health?
Anne: Okay. Um, so. Yeah, I love this maybe so much. Um, it just, it makes me smile. It makes me laugh. It makes me cry. Makes me think. Um, and it just makes me feel good. You know? Um, there's all the emotions there watching this movie. Well, not really like anger or discuss, but definitely joy sadness. Um, and I think there's some fear too.
Anne: I mean, you're, you're worried about her at least, you know, you're yeah. You're worried about what's going to happen. Um, not overly, so, but like any movie there's some tension and, you know, are they going to be able to get back to emotional headquarters?
Julia: I loved that they had like an emotional headquarters, like there's this main place where your emotions are housed and then.
Julia: Everything else is chaos, not chaos, but I just, I loved how they did that. I thought that was a really good
Anne: touch. No, I agree. I agree. I love that idea that there is this, the base of your emotions, um, sort of the idea that different emotions could be sort of in charge. Uh, and I thought it was interesting how joy was in charge and my Riley's fine.
Anne: And then what do you do when who's ever in charge of your emotions? It's no, it has, you know, sort of gone AWOL benefit. Um, but I, I, you know, if you look at the other characters who we see the emotions inside of their heads, like the mom hurts sadness is, is the one who is in charge. So, oh, that's
Julia: interesting.
Julia: I guess I didn't pick that up when I watched it this week. That's really, that's an interesting commentary. Yeah.
Anne: And it looks like anger is in charge of the dads set.
Julia: Well, that's hilarious, but also sad,
Anne: but like with the cat, it's all over the place. I love the fact there's like a cat and a jog. Like it's just like perfect.
Anne: But you know, it was just, you see, you know, it's sad. I mean the movie toxins it's like sadness equals empathy. And I was like, what I was talking about before with this fat with empathy, with it came from my mental health issues. And so that's where her mom was leading from like a point of empathy, which also was sadness.
Julia: There's that scene where. Um, and I made a note cause I was like, oh, I want to bring this up. There's a scene where being bong has like, he's lost the rocket and he's super sad. And just trying so hard to just be like, everything's fine, it's fine. We're fine. We're going to be buying. And here comes sadness and she completely validates his emotion.
Julia: So like you're saying she has empathy and he's like, she says to him specifically, I'm sorry, they took your rocket. They took something that you loved. It's gone forever. And then joy kind of like admonishes her for saying that, like, how dare you? What are you doing? Don't do that. But then, you know, what happens is being like, thank you for that.
Julia: Like he's feels seen. And he feels better because someone acknowledged that he, his emotions were real and didn't dismiss him. And it's not like Joy's dismissing everyone's emotion. She's trying so hard to like be joyful. But parts of her do come off as very dismissive when sadness is having her sadness.
Julia: And I'd felt that scene was so good because it helps you realize like, acknowledge that somebody is going through something. Even if you don't understand it, like sadness understood it, joy didn't and then joy realizes like, oh, okay.
Anne: Okay. So that's my favorite scene in the movie. I love that you brought that.
Anne: It's my favorite scene. It just makes me so happy. It sort of makes me think of sort of this idea that you know, that you, if you have that experience of sadness, then you can help other people with their sadness. Yes.
Julia: Oh my gosh. Yes. And I see that a lot too. Just culturally, we have, um, When people don't fully understand something, they do become very dismissive.
Julia: And they're just like, I'll have time for your problems. Even if you don't have time for somebody else's concerns, you could still say like, I'm sorry, you're going through this right now. I wish I had the bandwidth to help you. And if you do have the bandwidth to help somebody, you could say, how can I support you?
Julia: But also I struggle sometimes with the idea of like putting the onus on the person, struggling to tell me how to support them, because I feel like that could feel like a lot of pressure too, to be like, well, I don't want to be a burden.
Anne: Yeah, no, it's, it's, it, it can be a bit of a tight rope. Um, you know, cause you always want to be as, as supportive as possible, but sometimes you're not sure exactly what, what words to say, but I really do feel as somebody who's been in this situation, when people have reached out to me that it doesn't.
Anne: Um, I don't want to say it doesn't matter what they say, but it just matters so much that they care. And if they asked me what can I, what they can do for me to me that it's actually nice, you know, because then I can say, Hey, I want a hug or, Hey, can you, you know, buy a magazine for me, that's not really quite where I was.
Anne: I'm thinking that's like 20 years ago,
Anne: but you know, I'm thinking of like when I I've been hospitalized and if a friend wanted to bring me something, um, you know, to do when I was hospitalized, that would be one thing that that would have helped or what did help was things like magazines, because those are easy to read. You don't have to concentrate on too much.
Anne: And you know, in the hospital, they don't really allow you any kind of electronics. So you can't really, you know, Give you, you know, send you something over your phone or something. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah. I think the biggest message this time around, because the first time I saw it inside out, of course I cried and I was racked and I was just like, we need to be better about how we treat people in our emotions.
Julia: Oh my gosh. Um, but this time around that marriage between joy and sadness, living in harmony together, that was really strong this time around. And I just think that's so powerful and such an important message because we are so focused on you have to be happy and there's no room for anything else. And that's just not real.
Anne: Yeah, exactly. It is completely unreal. It's just not the way we work. And that's the whole thing is like, you know, um, I I'm thinking back on this therapist I had, um, In my twenties, who said I should smile more? Oh,
have
Julia: mercy. No,
Anne: that's not the way it works or the way any of this works. You know, it just it's so demeaning.
Anne: And so, yeah. That's another thing. If somebody is feeling down, don't try to tell them, oh, you should just look on the bright side. Oh, just smile. Oh, you know, everything's not so bad. Just snap out of it. You know? None of that is helpful.
Julia: Yeah. And for me, I'm like, what else does those things even mean?
Julia: Because like, I, eh, you know, what if I, like when I was unemployed, I mentioned, and this is nothing like our, our situations are very different. Right. So like, that's the other thing too, where people play the comparison game and it's just like, oh, okay. What the point is is you have emotions and feeling like, let's talk about it.
Julia: But in 20, when I was unemployed and really like, I literally getting off the couch. Not a thing. I was like on the couch watching TV, maybe to the restroom, maybe to go to the grocery store, but it just nonfunctioning would be really appropriate way to say that, put that, um, before I enrolled in grad school.
Julia: But if people would say things like, oh, snap out of it, it was just like, I don't even know what you're talking about. Snap out of what, like that's where I was mentally. Like, it doesn't even, I don't know what I'm doing because my world collapsed because I had never been fired before. And I'm now experiencing all these things and nobody really knew how to, like, even in that scenario, people struggled with how to have conversations.
Julia: That would be helpful. And I think we're scared too, because how do you approach somebody who's hurting or in pain, whether it's, you know, whatever it is and just, how do you bring it up in a way that isn't going to set them off and people at home can't see me, but I'm doing air quotes.
Anne: It's it's really hard when people don't listen and they don't understand,
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Julia: Well inside out takes place in the mind of an 11 year old girl. It's kind of a funny story. It takes us into the world of a clinically depressed teenager who gets a new star after he checks himself into an adult psychiatric ward. As I mentioned earlier, I experienced situational depression while in grad school, but clinical depression, which according to the Mayo clinic is the more severe form of depression.
Julia: Also known as major depression or major depressive disorder. And this film Craig, who is our teenager, that we follow needs, support and treatment, but the youth wing of the psychiatric ward is closed for renovations. So he spends his time in the adult wing. It is a film adaptation of a book of the same name written by Ned published in 2006.
Julia: The book was inspired by Vicini his own experience of hospitalization for depression earlier in his life. Do you think that this film contributed to deconstructing the mental health stereotypes?
Anne: You know, I feel like there's some, maybe light stereotyping in that room. Um, I, I think of like, there's one character who named humble the guy who's bald.
Anne: Um, he's I think he's, um, oh, what's the word? He's, he's, he's treated like a bit of a child that would be, I think, but it's not, it's not like as bad as like one flew over the Cuckoo's nest or like a functioning adult, but he's very childlike. So I think that that character is debatable overall. I think that the characters are pretty well grounded.
Anne: You know, I, I th I think there are some weak spots for sure, in this movie, but overall, you know, I didn't, I mean, I, I, I do enjoy the movie quite a bit. I think that. I really, really related to it sort of what's it like to be a teenager in a psychiatric ward? Because I was 19 when I first was hospitalized.
Anne: Um, and what is it like to have your family come visit you? That is not a pleasant experience. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah. Cause he's got his mom, who's trying to be loving and supportive and understanding and support them through it. And then his dad's just kind of like still piling on the pressure of life. Right. You have to do you have to fill out this application and his mom's like, no it's so you, whenever you have to know, there's a deadline, like that banter made me so uncomfortable for Craig because he's clearly feeling overwhelmed and dad's not helping.
Anne: Yeah, no, no. I thought that was a really interesting scene for sure. Um, just how. Sometimes you get into a specific role as a parent? Well, I I'm a man. I'm not a parent. I would, uh, this is what I see from the outside is that parents sometimes get in specific roles and it's hard for them to break out of that role.
Anne: And I think that he was not trying to, you know, be a jerk. I think he just didn't know how to get outside of the role that he had created for himself. Um, but it doesn't mean it wasn't hard that his dad was still putting pressure on him, but, you know, but I really thought it was interesting. I also really thought it was interesting, the choice of Jim Gaffigan and as.
Anne: You know, the straight man kind of thing. He was not really joking. I think there might've been a couple of jokes, but it was, he was a very straight-laced role. And I thought that was interesting, but oh geez. Who's the mom and this one, I was
Julia: Lauren.
Anne: I'm just kidding. Oh yeah, yeah,
Julia: yeah. I forgot. I forgot she was in it.
Julia: So when I cued it up to watch it, I was like, Hey, Laura lie.
Julia: Like I also forgot Zoe Kravitz was in this movie. And I also forgot that it was, um, Emma Roberts playing the other teenager in the psychiatric ward. And I think she did a really good job. I think she played her character really well. And I loved how they still had that sort. Like, I love that Craig still had.
Julia: You know, he's a teenager and he's going into this situation and it's scary. And you can feel that fear in him, even though he knows that he needs help, even though he knows that, you know, what he's experiencing could be harmful to him. He's still scared about moving into the step where he can get help.
Julia: And I appreciate that they showed that because you know, sometimes with representation with mental health, we don't always see the human side of somebody who's suffering.
Anne: Exactly. Exactly. No, I, I, I completely agree. It was just, you know, and that whole, his feeling when he first gets on the ward and it's like, where am I, what am I doing in here?
Anne: And I know there was some of that for me. I mean, th the reason why I had brought up this movie originally when we were talking, uh, before, um, before the, the taping, um, a little while ago was just because I related so much to. Um, for when I went in and how, you know it, you see other people around you who you're like, oh, well, those people are worse off than me.
Anne: And then you can get a little bit judgy. Like I think Craig gets a little judgy and like, well, at least I'm not, you know, at least I'm not schizophrenia, you know, kind of thing, which I think is, you know, overall not a helpful thing to think or, or say. Um, but I found that was really interesting, sort of him like sort of feeling more comfortable around some people than others.
Anne: Um, but one of the things I loved about. As the movie progressed was how much he wanted to help the other people on the unit. That was my favorite thing about the movie was how much he wanted to help. Especially Bobby who's played by Zach
Julia: Galifianakis. I loved their relationship. I thought it was a really sweet way to have an adult child because essentially teenagers or children relationship, it didn't cross any lines of being inappropriate.
Julia: You know, Zach, you know, Bobby, wasn't trying to force Craig to grow up and be, they just allowed each other to be who they are. And I loved that and I felt like we don't see that a lot, period. Yeah,
Anne: very true. We don't see that a lot. I mean, I think the only times we really see it is when in movies. So usually with like a T.
Anne: And a student. Right. And so, but just, uh, it's just really interesting to see that kind of friendship between an adult and a teenager in a way that is irreverent and fun, but also heartfelt and sometimes to add. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah. And then you have like just the normal, typical teenage elements that they throw in there too.
Julia: Right. With the two girls, like Emma Roberts character. And then, so he crap character, their names are escaping me. The character names are escaping me at the moment. And just how he feels sort of torn between the two of them. It doesn't right. Like it shows to me, it says that that part of the story was saying like, Hey, just because he has clinical depression doesn't mean.
Julia: Doesn't have like this factor going on to where he's in love with somebody, but also confused because this person makes them feel good. Like again, making him three-dimensional and rounded rather than his only character, his only characteristic is that he has gone out with depression and that's it. Like they gave him more than that.
Anne: Exactly. Exactly. No. That's they made him a full fledged individual, which so many movies about teenagers. They do not do that. You know, so many movies. So it's always really nice to see that. Um, and yeah, to see that he's not just his mental health issue is not just depression. He's, he's a full fledged, human being.
Julia: Yeah. Um, I heard, I was listening to an interview with Claire Danes a couple weeks ago. She was on ducks. Well, years ago she was on the doc Shepherd's podcast. And I was listening to her interview because I'm a different episode of the show. We did, we covered my so-called life. So I wanted to consume as much clarity as I could.
Julia: And she was talking about her character on Homeland. I haven't watched Homeland it's it looks stressful to me. So I'm like, I'm good,
Anne: very stressful. I couldn't finish the series I've watched through, I wanna say like the third season that I was like, this is too much, but
Julia: she was okay. So the reason why I brought it up, cause she talked about on that, um, on that show about how people, she was very cognizant of what it meant to play a character.
Julia: I think her character has bipolar disorder to play a character with bipolar disorder and to do it in a way that's going to not. Add to the stigma and make an, like an alienation of a community. And I just love that she would took it seriously. And then she mentioned that in the course of her career, having done Homeland people have reached out to her and have just been like, oh my gosh, thank you so much.
Julia: Like your perf, like just overwhelming, um, affirmation that she's done, a great job portraying a person with, with, um, this particular mental health. And I man, what a that's got that I understand where she's coming from about feeling a lot of pressure to represent well, because there's been such terrible representation in the past.
Anne: Yeah, no, no, she was perfect. I thought it was incredibly textured, um, performance and, you know, sort of looking at it. There was a lot of, um, talk around. You know, therapy and medication, stigma, um, care, you know, is your mental health come first or does your job come first? And what she always had to put her job first, just because of what she did, you know, and that was not always helpful to her.
Anne: That was not always good for her to do that, but she always had to quit her job first. And like, if he was having mental, severe mental health issues, she was basically forced to put her mental health first, but she never was really able to choose to do that. Um, but no, I, I I'm obsessed with Claire Danes and my so-called life was like one of my favorite shows of all time.
Anne: I was so sad. It was only one season. Gosh, I'll say a little women again, just because I love saying
Julia: that's, I mean, yeah, little women's one of the ones that's comfort for me. Like that's, there's just something very, I don't know what it is. It just makes it just, you know, I'm I it's like I, when I, when Beth dies, I need to cry.
Julia: W you know, I have the CR and it helps crying's good crying feels good sometimes. And that whenever I watch it, it's like, I need that cry and need that. And does any, and we talk in a couple of folks and I have talked about this on the pat on other episodes, but it's like when Claire Danes Christ cry, like she is the queen of crying on screen and doing it in a way that doesn't feel trite, overreacted, any, like, it feels completely authentic and natural.
Anne: Her lower lip did, if you noticed her. Shivers when she's crying or she's about to cry, like, yeah.
Julia: Yeah. It's, she's so good.
Anne: I know.
Julia: Anyway, that's actually her interview with duck. Shepherd's actually really interesting because she does talk about her, um, life through therapy and just some of the experiences she had.
Julia: She talks about how she started at a really young age, because she had seen, she had like, she didn't call him. What did she, she was seeing things like gargoyles and what have you at a really early age? And so her parents were very artistic, like very artsy fartsy. Like they lived in the same building as Basquiat or something like that.
Julia: She's very open about her own mental health journey. And I, I, I just feel like things like that just helps so much when somebody that we have a ton of respect for and admire because of their art is very open and, and she wasn't hesitant to talk about it. She was just very matter of fact about, you know, these are the experiences that I had in my life and that, you know, contributed to who I've become.
Julia: So if you ever have a chance to listen to it, that one particular episode, I will check
Anne: it out for sure.
Julia: And she talks about my so-called life on there as well, which is like, oh, it's like so
Anne: good. I wasn't same age. You know, uh, her character and I'm, I think I'm maybe like a year younger than she is. I really connected with her.
Julia: Yeah. She was 13 when she did the pilot. And I didn't realize that she was 13, but you know, we knew that she was like 15 on the show or whatever, 14 or 15. It's a great show. And, and friends at home who are listening. If you haven't listened to our most so-called life episode, head on over and do that after you listened to this one.
Julia: And my so-called life is currently on Hulu and I hope it still is by the time the show airs. Otherwise you can watch it.
Anne: I know what I'm doing this weekend. Yeah.
Julia: Hey friends. I just wanted to pop in real quick and say, thanks for listening and sticking with us. I really appreciate it. And you taking the time to listen really means a lot.
Julia: If you're listening to us on apple podcasts, I would love it. If you could drop us a review, I know it's not always an easy task, or sometimes we think we'll do it real quick. And then we get distracted. Heavens knows I'm the queen of getting distracted. It would really mean a lot to me. If you just drop a couple of notes on what you think of the show, I'd love it.
Julia: If you gave us five stars, but you know, you do you, I understand you have to be true to what your, your belief system is about this program. With that said, I'll let you get back to the show. Charlie Bartlett first premiered at the Tribeca film festival on May 1st, 2000 often advertised as a rich kid who becomes the self appointed school psychologist.
Julia: It's a bit deeper than that. And in 2008, I first saw this movie and it impacted me differently than movies mentioned earlier. Like girl interrupted. Charlie is living with his mother who is also experiencing depression. And in the New York times review of this film writer, Stephen Holden had this to say, quote, why his child, that he is Charlie understands that he is his mother's emotional caretaker and lifeline to whatever stability she can muster.
Julia: And to quote, I do also want to add, um, this movie stars, you know, it's Robert Downey Jr. And Kate Denning, Kat Dennings, and a whole bunch of other people who are now like bucco famous. How did this movie impact you and how you feel about mental health representation for high school students?
Anne: Sure. So I think this is pretty much the best movie.
Anne: When it comes to looking at high school students and mental health, um, I cannot say too much about this movie. It is perfection. It is glorious. So the idea is that there's this, um, uh, teenager named Charlie Bartlett, whose parents are very rich and he's gone to all these different private schools, but kicked out of every single one for various reasons.
Anne: And so he's going to public school and he decides that and he wants to be popular. And he decides that somehow he's going to be popular. Um, because he's going to sort of place that psychiatrist, his students with mental health issues, a psychiatrist slash therapist. And he does it at first, um, just to be popular, but then he starts to do it because he cares about the kids and he wants to help them.
Anne: So, um, and he gets the ends up being popular. Um, in the movie. Um, but he, you know, he starts to see what is the underside or popularity. Um, but it shows it's so good. It's, it's just a lovely, lovely movie. Um, and I just think it's, um, it's, it's, I think it's the truest movie about high school, mental health that I've ever seen.
Julia: Yeah. Cause every student has something, right. Like, and that's what really struck me this time around watching it this week was that every single student had feelings and emotions and the only person willing to listen was Charlie. None of the adults were willing to write. And here he is this kid. Who's just kind of trying to figure out his own life, dealing with his own issues like that.
Julia: To me, we should be ashamed of ourselves as a society because I'm pretty sure every teenager feels unheard with their emotions and we should not be putting people in that situation.
Anne: Exactly. Exactly. So I think this was, you know, a good movie to really show people how important it is to listen to teenagers when they talked about their, their
Julia: emotions.
Julia: Yeah. And there's a lot of layers too. So as you mentioned, you know, as we've talked, you mentioned he's comes from a wealthy family, but his dad's in prison and his mom's just kind of existing and trying to keep everything afloat. Then you have Kat Dennings and Robert Downey Jr. His characters, they play father and daughter, which always makes me chuckle because they're in the Marvel universe together.
Julia: And you forget that they did this movie together and you're just like you too. Anyway. But, you know, we learned that cat's mom has left and RTJ has, you know, his own struggles. He's struggling with addiction. And maybe his addiction is a symptom of something else because he's of his emotions and his own mental health, who knows, but they have all of these different types of layers.
Julia: And with Charlie, the first time, his mom's like, Hey, let's go visit your dad. He's like, he doesn't want to do it. He doesn't get out of the car, spoiler alert, but this movie came out in 2007. So it's not my fault. It's spoiled. Um, his mom's an all black. And the first time they go visit him. And then after they go through all the emotions and you get through all the big things that happened, they go to visit dad again and she's wearing, uh, I think it's pink or lavender dress.
Julia: And I thought that was really interesting representation, sort of a subtle nod to, Hey, we're a little bit better now. Like she's willing to wear something less mournful because black is, you know, the way they had her dress. The first time I saw the movie, I thought, is she going to the grave site? Like, you look very sad.
Julia: Like, are you going to a funeral? And then this time it was a little bit not cheerful. That's the wrong word. But the second time a movie, they go to see him. She's her moods lifted in a way that's a little bit healthier than. In an hour before?
Anne: Well, one of the things I found interesting was both with Charlie and Susan, was that no problem.
Anne: So, you know, both of their, one thing they had in common is both of their parents had things, you know, issues with alcohol because the mom of Charlie, you know, you'll see her taking clogged a pen with a glass of wine. Um, and she just, it's almost any time you see her seated, she's got a glass of wine near her.
Anne: Um, so that's, that's something. Um, but I really love the two of them together, Charlie and Susan, and just how deep their relationship gods and how they could both be very irreverent and silly. Together by the same time of having deep conversations and really caring about each other. So yeah, that's, it's, I love to see such a functional relationship with teenagers.
Anne: You don't really always see that, but I thought that's one of the things I loved about it.
Julia: Yeah. It's like, you have to, it's like for whatever reason, teen romances, unless it's a wrong calm, they have to be like tumultuous or constantly fighting or something. It's not like a average teen experience. Like I, you know, when I watch teen movies, if I'm going to think of, I didn't really date in high school actually.
Julia: Cause I thought dating in high school was stupid and the rest of my life to torture myself this way. Um, but it, it. That's another level of representation that we don't always get to see a lot of is just, you know, this basic they get along, they have harmony. Um, and I wonder how, how common that is, how more, how common that is over some of the other sort of, some of the other relationship types.
Julia: There are for high school kids,
Anne: how common it is in, in movies or in real life,
Julia: both or just in real life. Because I feel like when I was in high school, my friends, they were just chill. Like when they were dating people, it was chill. They didn't have, you know, we had, like you were saying, they had conversations with their partner or they, you know, were also silly and goofy.
Julia: It wasn't like this big tumultuous, whatever kind of situation. It was very much like your 16 and you have limited life experience and exposure, then that's kind of how you're behaving and it's
Anne: completely acceptable. I don't know. That's a good question. Um, I had some abnormal friends, so I dunno if I really had, yeah, there were, I had some interesting people.
Anne: Um, yeah. As friends when I was 16 and 17, just a different crowd. So I don't think it was quite
Julia: representative. Yeah. Okay. That's the other thing too, right? Like my son now will say things like, we don't talk like that when we watch movies, um, that are like present day. Teenagers is like, who wrote those? We don't talk like that.
Julia: I'm just like, listen, I'm of the generation where adults protein dialogue, and we didn't know any better. We just thought that that was the way it was. Okay. Like, stop, stop with that. Suspend your disbelief real quick and enjoy this movie with me. Um, one of the other things that I thought was interesting about Charlie Bartlett is how he started shopping, um, psychiatrists.
Julia: So he could get the medications he needed for his classmates.
Anne: That was the interesting scene for sure. And, uh, yeah, that was, that was, yeah, go ahead.
Julia: As to say he didn't have the foresight to realize how dangerous that could actually be.
Anne: Yeah. Yeah. That's the whole thing with medication is that you have to be so careful and so many people, they don't do that as much, any more, just because of, you know, keeping that, you know, databases updated and all that kind of thing.
Anne: But doctor shopping used to be a huge thing that people would do. And now whoever they use the medication for whether it was themselves or, or somebody else that was, that was, you know, it's, it's always a danger to, um, either try to seek out certain medications. If one doctor is not going to give them to you or to give them to somebody else, um, But yeah, that was an interesting scene and just, um, sort of his acting in that I really liked his acting.
Anne: Um, uh, Charlie, the actor plays Charlie Bartlett. I'd love to is acting in that scene. Yeah.
Julia: The consequence of that. Right. So then, um, what's the kid's name? Who takes the takes too many of the pills, but they were able to, yeah. I think they're able to get to him in time. And that moment when Charlie realizes like, oh, this is like, he feels sad and then he just totally does what he can to make him.
Julia: I don't know, feel a little bit better by helping get the play going and just really advocating for him and making him feel like he's a part. And I loved that too, because this kid has a good heart.
Anne: Yeah, exactly. You know? I just love a movie with, with somebody who's got a good heart at the center that just makes it
Julia: for me.
Julia: 'cause the other. Yeah. Yeah. Cause the other hurdle is, is sometimes when we have characters who do or who are suffering from mental health and need support, they're painted as a bad guy or evil or, um, all of these other negative type things without they're B they're painted without empathy. That's a better way to say that.
Julia: Um, and in the case of Charlie Bartlett, you have somebody who's just very caring and very loving and wants to fix everything. And everybody, because, you know, he knows how that feels too. He wants to not, he doesn't want people to feel the way that he feels.
Anne: Exactly. Oh yeah, no, it's just, it, it, it really, um, it made me think like, what if I had a friend like that in high school?
Anne: Like Charlie Bartlett wouldn't that have been lovely,
Julia: right? His relationship with the principal, I thought was kind of funny because you know, the here, the principal is just trying to do his job, living his best life. He's supposed to just have his easy breezy course of action. And then here comes Charlie.
Julia: He's like shedding a light on all the things that are wrong with how the students are supported.
Anne: Exactly. Exactly. And you know, the whole, the whole thing with how much stress. I couldn't even imagine. Like, I couldn't even imagine being a teacher. Like I just, I learned a long time ago that I do not handle teenagers or children.
Anne: Well, when it comes to like discipline or like keeping them, you know, on task. So I can't even imagine being a teacher, let alone principal, I let the other, you know, I have other extended family members who are teachers. And I think that is an amazing thing. And I say kudos to every teacher, because that is like one of the hardest jobs there is out there.
Anne: I could not do
Julia: it. Yeah. Because they're dealing with all kinds of personalities and, you know, dynamics. And what have you. I think what I love too about going to go back to inside out really quickly, um, because they show a teacher in inside, out as well. When, when, um, Riley starts her first day of school.
Julia: And the teacher's like, where are you from? You know, just innocent questions about her starting. And then she just sort of like, if sadness touches a core memory and just, she gets really in Riley just gets sat in that moment. And the teacher's just very okay. That's yeah. Okay. Let's kind of sweetly moves on.
Julia: Um, and that's gotta be hard to do, especially for middle schoolers, because there's just, first of all, your like emotions are everywhere. Period. When you're in a middle school and between the ages of like 11 and 25, I feel like you don't really fully get a handle on how you feel because everything is just what it's, you know, that scene in inside, out when like disgust and anger and, um, Yeah, fear or I'll just panicking, like, oh my gosh.
Julia: I'm like, why does that feel? Like, that's just like what being a teenager is like,
Julia: like every emotion is at the core at the forefront and you can't figure out how to navigate it. And you're just like,
Anne: but around inside of your head yelling your head off.
Julia: Yeah. And it's interesting too. How, in all three of these movies, they do have, um, people who do want to who do care and want to support, you know, with Charlie Bartlett, not, not, not really in the same way Susan has, is kind of his anchor, but for Riley, it's her parents and for, um, Well, you know, it's kind of a funny story.
Julia: I felt like Bobby was sort of the anchor for Craig while he was, um, in the hospital. And I, and I, again, I really appreciate how there's that wide variety too, of showing like, it's not always going to come from who you, the support you need. Isn't always going to come from the people you assume it's going to come from.
Anne: Very true. That is so true. And yeah, there's, there's a scene in Charlie Bartlett where, uh, Charlie tells Susan that, uh, when his dad went to prison, he told his dad told him that he needed to take care of his mom. And then Susan says, well, who takes care of you? And that was like, oh my God, that's so
Julia: sad.
Julia: And he's a kid. It shouldn't be his responsibility to take care of his mom. That's hard.
Anne: Gosh, exactly. So, but she was very lost. She, she just didn't know. You know what to do. And I don't know if she was like that before her husband went to, well, they said that I think he's Charlie told Susan that, um, that she became very depressed after the dad went to prison.
Anne: But yeah, it's, it's, it's so hard when kids don't have an adult anchor. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah, absolutely. Cause it's not their job. I tell my son that all the time, it's not your job, you're a kid. Don't, that's not a thing that you need to be worried about. And when you get there, we'll cross that bridge together because it's not your job to bear it all by yourself.
Julia: You have been on this planet for very little time.
Anne: Yeah.
Julia: When I was in high school, the only excusable illness was something visible. The idea that a team needed a data recover or a few days at that was scoffed or even mocked. Now, if my child needs a mental health day, I can call in and say and say exactly that we're just taking a mental health day and it's considered an excused absence.
Julia: So to me, that's progress, but we still have so much more work to do I think. And I'm grateful for that. Cause there are days I feel like you need to learn how to balance that too. Right? Like I'm struggling today. I need a date I need to, I need a day. And to give that space for kids to be able to learn how to navigate that, because I mean, we had to have a fever and throwing up to miss school, like that were the only acceptable things.
Julia: It didn't matter if you were just having a little tough day, emotionally too bad. Suck it up. Go to school.
Anne: Exactly. Yeah. That was the whole thing was, you know, when I was a kid, I would always try to get out of school. Or even some as a teenager as well, just because I just didn't feel like I fit in. I felt like an outcast.
Anne: Um, and I would just dealt with a lot of mental health issues. I also always dealt with insomnia, so I would be so tired sometimes. So tired. Cause I would just be up all night, like just couldn't sleep. So I would, you know, have some excuse or like, I don't want to go to school. I just don't feel like it.
Anne: Yeah.
Julia: The school, the school system is very much designed for those people. Who've been get up early and function. Like we are not morning people in this house, so it is a straw. We are on the struggle bus every single morning. And it's, it's almost like, I don't know. Again, it's one of those things where when you, um, I don't know what the answer is.
Julia: Well, in California, starting next year, schools can't have to start at nine. They can't start before nine for certain grade levels. And so we're just missing that, but I'm glad that they're doing it because, and it is a, both, neither of us are morning people. Like we are more of the, we start functioning around three and then, because my job demands that I'm up early and working, I'm tired by nine, but on the weekends, like we hit the ground running.
Julia: We're like ready. Noon-ish, we're kind of like starting to become human. And then three it's like, all right, what are we going to do today?
Anne: And, you know,
Julia: really? Or, yeah. And then I'm up until, you know, one or two in the morning. And so it was my kid. And then Sunday we can, you know, so it's hard that Monday through Friday is hard because the world is very much structured for, you have to be up and functional by eight.
Julia: And that's just mean.
Anne: Yeah. You know, one of the reasons why I decided to go in business for myself was so I could sleep. Yeah.
Julia: I support that. I support that if I ever can work for myself the day will not start before 10. That is for sure. And thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.
Julia: Can you tell our friends at home where they can find you if they want to keep up with you?
Anne: Sure. Um, so, uh, you can find me on my website, which is we are writing wisely.com or LinkedIn, undefined aim and voice. Um, also on Facebook, under, uh, my business pages writing wisely and on Instagram, I am an Feustel
Julia: author.
Julia: Awesome. We will link to all of those things in the show notes for you guys to make it a little bit easier to find and pop culture makes me jealous as written, edited, and produced by me, Julia Washington, and as always thanks for tuning in and y'all until next time.
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