LGBTQ Representation in Media | 17
Show Notes:
LGBTQ+ representation in media has been a long road to get where we are today. In 2021, Professor Alfred L. Martin, Jr., wrote for The Washington Post “The long road to more accurate portrayals of Black LGBTQ people on television” where he goes into the history of Black gay me on television.
Host Julia Washington and guest John-John Wiliams IV discuss his relationship with LGBTQ representation in media, starting with his life in high school.
John-John is a journalist who works for the Baltimore Banner. He previously worked for the Baltimore Sun where he penned articles about life and culture. His way with words provides insight to a community that is often never allowed to just exist.
Let's Get Social:
The Show: Pop Culture Makes Me Jealous
The Host: Julia Washington
The Guest: John-John Williams IV
Ad Partners:
Transcript:
Julia: Hey friends, this is pop culture makes me jealous where we discuss pop culture through the lens of race or gender. And sometimes both. I'm your host, Julia Washington and on today's show. My guest is John John Williams, the fourth, and we are discussing gay representation and high school. When
Julia: you join our Patreon community, you get access to all episodes, bonus content, invitations to our monthly happy hour and a weekly drop in hangout session that feels more like hanging out at a coffee shop. The cost is only $15 a month. When you join, we'll even give you a shout out in one of our episodes.
Julia: When we hit 100 members, there may even be a book club involved too. For us book nerds. Don't wait, join us. Become a pop culture club member today. Hey friends. I just wanted to do a quick note and let you know, since this recording, John John Williams, the fourth has left the Baltimore sun and now works for the Baltimore banner.
Julia: You can read all of his articles still by Googling his name as he recommends in the outro. John John Williams, the fourth. Okay. And now here we go to the show. LGBTQ plus representation in media has been a long road to get where we are today in 2021, professor Alfred L Martin Jr. Wrote for the Washington post in an article titled the long road to more accurate portrayals of black LGBTQ people on television, where he goes into the history of black gay men on television.
Julia: He writes, quote representation can signal acceptance and normalcy. That can be important for black queer boys and men. Yet the battle does not end with more or more nuanced representation for entertainment industries to truly make progress in representing black LGBTQ characters. They need to hire more black LGBTQ people of color to work in front of and behind the cameras while creating programming that doesn't force single LGBTQ characters to represent.
Julia: All LGBTQ experiences only then can conversations about LGBTQ stereotypes be firmly left in the past end quote. But before we dive into our discussion today, I'd like to introduce you to my guest, John John Williams, the fourth has worked for the Baltimore sense since 2005. He currently works as a senior reporter covering diversity equity and inclusion through the lens of race and culture.
Julia: He joined the paper as an education reporter. He joined the feature staff as a fashion reporter in 2011. His role in features expanded to covering home food, travel and popular culture, a proponent of diversity and inclusion. He has led the paper's diversity committee for the past three years. During that time, the committee has helped to implement a content audit, develop a diverse expert database and cultural competency style guide, and add diverse talent to the paper.
Julia: Before coming to the sun, he worked at the times. Pune. Thank you. Pune and the, and the AR leader. He interned at the Chicago Tribune, the Detroit free press. Ah, I loved the Detroit free press. Yeah. And the post standard. He is a graduate of Howard university. Welcome to the show, John. John.
John-John: Thank you so very much.
John-John: I know I gave you a mouthful.
Julia: Hey, it's OK. It just establishes that you're an authority in what we're gonna be talking about today. One two. I didn't realize you'd gone to Howard. I love that three. I, we could talk forever about the Giled age. I know that's not this episode, but I know that we could probably
John-John: talk after I have to come back just for that epi, just for that show it.
John-John: I just think it's so. I love it. Um, I can't wait for the next season and yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Julia: I know I was on the fence of watching it and everyone was like, you have to watch it. You love period pieces. And then when you were talking about it in your stories on Instagram, I was like, okay, it's John, John approved.
Julia: I'm going in? Yeah.
John-John: I mean, it gets like a platinum star. I, I love that show. It's so, so good. And when you talk about representation, I think that. It does it right? Mm-hmm um, yeah, it's not like downtrodden struggle city for black people. We know that they've had their own, that they've always had black excellence in an elite black, um, society.
John-John: So, but that's a different
Julia: story. Yes, it is. And one will bring to the AirWave soon. My friends at all. Absolutely. Absolutely. That needs to be talked about more often. Mm-hmm okay. John, John, yes. We're gonna start at the very beginning of our memories here. Mm-hmm so I am dying to know, well, I guess I'm not really dying to know.
Julia: I'm more curious to know. Do you remember the first time you saw a gay character on television or in a movie and then absolutely. Can you expand on how that impacted you? Yep.
John-John: There were, there were two examples and they were both, um, uh, black lesbians. Um, yeah. Um, the color purple. Oh, yes. Yep. If, I mean, it's clear that there there's a same sex, you know, relationship throughout that movie.
John-John: Mm-hmm um, you can obviously see it and then the women of Brewster place, um, they had. Yep. Uh, did you ever see it? I didn't, it was fantastic. It was like an all star cast of black women at the time. So Oprah was in it. Yeah. Oprah was in it. Um, uh, Robin Gibbons was in it. Um, it was just like a, so much. Yeah.
John-John: Yeah. It was, it was an amazing show and it was like a big, it was huge event. Um, and it was a, um, uh, yeah, there was a, uh, a gay couple. Um, and I just remembered, um, it was the first time that it actually seen a, like a, a functioning. Non stereotypic, just, you know, they were, they were there mm-hmm gay couple.
John-John: Um, they were obviously, they were a lesbian couple and they had to deal with discrimination. Yes. But, um, At the end of the day, it was a loving relationship and it was something that I'd just never seen on television before. Yeah. So those were my first images that I can remember of, um, gay characters in like mass media or just like on the bigger, the small
Julia: screen.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's great. The color purple. We're actually working on, um, a segment where we do a book to screen comparison side by side, um, and just how that adaptation holds up to the, to the novel. Cause it's such a great book and friends at home. If you haven't read it, Alice Walker, you should really read it.
Julia: It's a great place to start when you're, if you're trying to dive into what you know, black literature and just to understand, um, the importance and significance of a, that Alice Walker has had on our culture in our society in modern
John-John: day. and I think they both, um, stand up mm-hmm hold up on their own.
John-John: Yeah. They could, both of them could be, you know, could be without one another and still be very strong piece, you know, pieces of work. Yeah. Um, I, I find that both pieces in their own genres are some of the strongest offerings ever. Um, the color purple is one of my favorite movies of all time. And, you know, people can say, oh yeah, Steven Spielberg directed it.
John-John: So it's not necessarily a black movie. I believe it is a black movie. That movie is unapologetically black. It is yeah. Iconically black. It is a, I think it's my favorite piece of work from him because he's stepping out of his comfort zone. Mm-hmm and, um, he got Oprah whoopy, the entire cast to really. Act their asses off.
John-John: Yeah. I can't make it through that movie without crying at least
Julia: one. Yes. Yes. And, and what we won an award for it.
John-John: So, no, she, she didn't win an academy award for it. No, I did. But she was nominated, right. She was that movie. Uh, the, the a little, um, pop culture, um, uh, history here. Um, that movie was nominated for like a record number of academy awards and didn't win one.
John-John: Yeah, that was, that was why it was such a, um, uh, people have just been so outraged over it. It's probably one of the biggest nubs in academy award history. No one from that movie won in a, a single academy award. Plenty of nominations. Yeah. But not one win, not one. So when we say
Julia: things like y'all got a problem, the academy awards we're talking, you know, it goes deep, cuz people forget, they only think recent history, but people forget, it goes deep.
Julia: The problems that the academy has.
John-John: Oh, the gone with the wind. Um, yeah. Uh, where, you know, uh, they had to, um, They basically had to rally or just protest or fight for hat McDaniel to even be allowed into the awards in which she won. Yeah. Um, yeah, it don't get me started.
Julia: Yeah. That's also a whole other episode.
John-John: I'm seeing a, an entire season just of us. Yes.
Julia: I'm here for it. I'm here for it. Yeah. Cause it's hard. It's hard sometimes for me, because I live in the dual world of being mixed. So there's like things about black television, black culture that I'm just like, oh, I love these, but I don't always have a network of people to talk to about them so that sometimes can feel really lonely.
Julia: Yeah. And sometimes, I don't know. It's just, I, I think I've told this story on the show before in my grad school, I was taking black. I think they called it black literary tradition at the school I went to and we had to read beloved cuz that's just a standard. Right. I was in a group with all white women.
Julia: Which is fine, whatever, but we're talking about what the book means and, and the themes and just the feelings of the characters and just really getting into it. And all of 'em were just very judgemental about my analysis. And I was like, no, man, like I'm a direct as descended and enslaved people. Like my grandmother literally wasn't allowed to vote.
Julia: Like, okay. Yeah. Like this is hard. Where are the other black
John-John: women? Yeah. yeah. We've, I mean, we've all been there where you're just like, you know, standing essentially by yourself and especially being a fan of pop culture. Mm-hmm you, because this could be an another issue in of itself. You have to essentially, and I love pop culture.
John-John: I'm a pop culture, you know, fanatic, but with that said, Being a pop culture fanatic. You have to basically accept the fact that you will not be represented, especially if you like the eighties. Yeah. Or the nineties, um, where they just did such a, a horrible job of, you know, adding or just showcasing black people.
John-John: Mm-hmm in, I mean, love John Hughes, but Lord Jesus, he seriously must have had a major issue with black people. Yeah. I can't remember one in hi, any of his movies? No.
Julia: And he doesn't and sometimes I feel like he also hates women because of some of the stuff well,
John-John: I mean, yes, six 16 candles. It, I mean, he basically sells one off.
John-John: Yeah. For like, um, you know, to, to just have someone do whatever they want with her, you know, the panties are given away for the other one. Yeah. And then. The, the Asian character is just beyond racist. Yeah, it is. It's on a different level of racism. Yep. He has. I mean, my gosh, he it's clear that he hated
John-John: Yeah. Uh, diverse people clearly. I mean, he has a serious issue with them. Yeah. But with that said, um, if you are a fan of pop culture, it's very hard not to. I mean, it's, I mean, you have to put some of those things aside, you just wouldn't be able to make it through anything. I couldn't have made it through the nineties watching friends or, you know, um, God sex in the city or Seinfeld.
John-John: Yeah. All these shows that are based in New York city, which is one of the most diverse areas in the country with little to no diversity at all. Mm-hmm , I mean, you can't like trip and. You know, avoid contact with a black, Asian, Latino, or gay person in New York. But somehow these shows show this utopian society where they just don't exist.
John-John: And
Julia: they're all very wealthy and they all make it very successfully. And, you know, sure. Friends had those moments where they did the class divide between the group, but it's it wasn't a consistent storyline. No, either. So here I am living in California, watching these shows, thinking that you're gonna live your best life in New York and it's hella easy, but also why doesn't anybody look like
John-John: yes.
John-John: Anyway, or remotely close to anything that we're looking like? Mm-hmm I mean, nothing. Yeah. But yeah. Um, yeah, but same thing with like, you know, 9 0 2 and oh, loved it. But you know, other than Vivica Fox making an appearance in one episode during that first season, I'm like there, there were hardly any, and then, you know, Even the writing for that was just, you just look at it and you just cringe hearing some of the, the lines that are being said, or I think they even made reference to jungle fever.
John-John: Yeah. Like does, you know, Brandon have jungle fever, this and the other, because he was dating Viv or was attracted to her or something. Yeah. I just, I will always remember those things. Yeah. But we are here for a different conversation and I think they all kind of dovetail and kind of, I mean, the same issues and concerns that we have about race, we definitely would have about, you know, LGBTQ representation.
John-John: And I think that the first thing is treating, um, treating the group as like a monolith mm-hmm and the fact that there, if you just have one, you know, one example when you're so starved of images or whatever, that sometimes that's not necessarily the best thing.
Julia: This portion of the show is brought to you by tidy revival.
Julia: If you find yourself stressed by clutter and want to create simple solutions that are easy to maintain, Carly Adams will teach you exactly what to do in the clutter free home process. Course, community learn the steps she uses with every client and tips to help you think like a home organizer using short, easy steps, plus get personalized accountability and access to the private community for a full year.
Julia: Check it all out@tidyrevival.com slash pop to learn more. In 2017, the New York times ran an article titled 14 TV shows that broke the ground with gay and transgender characters on the list. Ricky, from my so-called life is listed Wilson. Cruz played the 16 year old, who is credited with being the first actor to play an openly gay team character on network television in 2021 in a 2021 interview with today, Cruz stated quote, I have great pride in being that person, but, but the freedom and the relief and the strength that people were able to garner just from seeing him and feeling of validation they received by his existence, his very existence of being on national television show about teenagers, the people like him felt seen and included and were part of the story.
Julia: So the next question for you, cuz I think you were going there. What impact did Ricky from my soul called life have on you, whether it's direct or indirect.
John-John: So I think that this might not be a popular answer. Um, yes, he was on, it was an image on television, but I don't necessarily know if it was, I definitely know it wasn't an image that represented me.
John-John: Mm-hmm so, um, I played football in high school. Um, yeah. Uh, I, um, know, I, I went to a, a predominantly white, private, um, school Christian brothers academy in upstate New York mm-hmm um, and I wasn't out of the time, but I wasn't, um, I've never been, um,
John-John: I've never pursued relationships with women or dated women or anything like that. So it's never, I've never like. Been like, oh, John, John has a girlfriend. Sure. Wink, wink. Like it's never, I just avoided it. Yeah. Um, and in the nineties, people can say, oh my God, that's crazy. Or whatever. But in the nineties, it was a much different world than it is now, especially in the mid to early nineties.
John-John: Um, and that's the different story. So for Ricky Vasquez to be like the first, like out in open gay character, I mean, Ricky put up, you know, wore like mascara mm-hmm , Ricky would hang out in the women's bathroom. Um, those weren't any things that, those weren't things that I was want that I wanted to do. Um, and I think that having one, you know, image or whatever many people will be like, oh, that's like, that's what gay people are like.
John-John: And I think that gay people are not like a monolith. Yeah. Um, we run a spectrum, um, and. You know, just because one person is like living their truth in a certain way or whatever, isn't the way that, you know, all gay people are. Right. Um, and there is a difference, you know, obviously in, you know, the LGBTQ plus, I mean, there is just such a, a, you know, a variety or just a range in, you know, the community in general.
John-John: Yeah. I mean, there's a, there's even a D he, Ricky is Latino. I am black. Mm-hmm , there is a difference there. Um, you know, Ricky was dealing with homelessness at a point in, in the show. I mean, I love the show. I've watched every episode. I own it, uh, on VHS and D V D. Yes. . ,
Julia: that's a, that's a true, that's how, you know, that you were born last century yeah,
John-John: absolutely.
John-John: Absolutely. But at the end of the day, I was like, just like, Hmm. , I mean, any random black person doesn't necessarily represent me or whatever. Right. I mean, Ricky didn't represent me either. Mm-hmm and in a time when, um, there, I mean, obviously there's still a lot of stigma around the gay community or whatever, but when, you know, this was, Ricky was just, one was one way or whatever.
John-John: And I was not like that at all. I didn't see that as being like my champion moment or sure. This is my role model or whatever. I was like, great. I'm I'm glad that there is this and it definitely, um, stuck out in my mind or whatever, but it didn't represent me at all. Mm-hmm um, I think that, uh, When, uh, Dawson's Creek came on and there was a character Jack on it.
John-John: You see, I, I do, I love pop culture. I know you talking about, um, um, I remember his character was more in line with the, the type of gay person I was. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I mean, I was more social and not as like quiet and brooding and this and the other, but, um, and still like unapologetically black and I don't think there's been a character that's necessarily like me on television.
John-John: Period.
Julia: Well, and it goes back to the point of, um, the professor on the first article I, uh, pulled and quoted, you know, you, it's hard to get representation when you still don't have, um, writers' rooms and production staff who are able to be in the room and sort of help curate and cultivate those scenarios in the, in the, in that storyline.
Julia: It makes a big difference. Like if you don't have somebody in the room who can speak from experience, then, then are you really doing a service? Like how do, how,
John-John: and, and I'm not necessarily saying that you, the only way you can write about a, um, a group is to be part of that group. Sure. Or because like, I even, I mentioned the Steven Spielberg, um, situa you know, example or whatever, with the color purple earlier and how I think that that was just a phenomenal movie.
John-John: Period. Um, and I think it does a great job of capturing the black experience mm-hmm of that time. And with those, with those people right. In that, in, in that world, um, I think that representation does matter, but I also think that it has to be the right type of representation. Yeah. Um, now you have, if you're sending in gosh, um, who just is completely off brand to me like Clarence Thomas or Candace Owens or, um, yeah.
John-John: Um, Herschel Walker or his son. Um, and they're gonna be the black representation at the table or whatever writing for black people. Absolutely not. That's a problem. It's off brand mm-hmm . I would, I would have a, a culturally competent white person, a thousand times. Over them writing black stories. Yeah, for sure.
John-John: Because, you know, they're, I, I don't necessarily think that they, um, uh, that, that culturally compet. Person white person would have the same sense of self-loathing or stereotypes that I think those individuals walk in. Um,
Julia: yeah. You know, it's interesting that you bring that up because we were my friend and I were talking about west side story mm-hmm and she, and I both don't really care for the new one.
Julia: Like I think it's beautiful. I think the costumes were amazing. I think it was decently acted, but for me, what was missing was that line in the first and yes, the first one's got its issues, like Natalie would never should have played Maria mm-hmm they painted them way too. Like Rita Marino's statement of how everyone had to be in dark brown makeup, even though they were all varying shades.
Julia: Like we. We know those problems. Mm-hmm but what it captured was that weird balance that you have to live between where you are in a community or an area that does have white supremacy existing, and having to balance between that ideology and your existence when you're not a part of the major di dominant culture, I don't feel like the new one really captured that the same way.
Julia: And it didn't hit me in the same way. Cuz I, you know, that's where I come from being able to be in that whole like cool. Nobody knows what I am great. I'll just stand here in the corner and wait until somebody recognized me and then we can be friends
John-John: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I even then, I think that's a, a situation of like where you are.
John-John: Mm-hmm like for example, my people are from new Orleans. My mom is from new Orleans. My family's from new Orleans. I have cousins who are, um, both their parents are black and. They are much lighter than you. Um, they have blonde hair and blue eyes and it's, you know, it's just a recessive gene thing. Yeah. So like, you know, areas like that, where people are accustomed to seeing that, like they would have no problem seeing you and being like, oh, she's one of us.
John-John: Yeah, yeah. There wouldn't be like the, oh, what issue? It's because we've, they've seen so many people who look like that over the years. I think it's just access and your frame of reference. Yeah. That's what, that's what really dictates a lot of, you know, how people are treated or how they, you know, feel accepted or this and the other.
John-John: It's interesting. I I'm actually gonna be working on a story about, um, passing the phenomenon of passing. Yeah. Which I think will be very, very interesting. I'm not going to say exactly what it's going to be because you know, I, I think it's new territory that. I don't want another journalist seeing this and saying, sure, oh, I'm gonna be running this story.
John-John: No, you're not. No, you're not but yes, it's, it's definitely, um, yeah, it's definitely a thing. Yeah,
Julia: it is. And I, I think that it can kind of tie back to, with, um, uh, queer representation in my community. You know, there's a group of people who run a straight pride parade and it's like, you're like half of us are half the community is like, you're kidding.
Julia: Right? Like you really believe that this is a thing you should be doing and just the ideology they're coming from. And then our younger people in our community are just so devastated by it because it's just hateful rhetoric that they're spouting, but they're convinced that they're right. And that's really hard.
Julia: And I can't, I it's just
John-John: so all 365 days of the year, aren't enough for. You know, straight people. Thank you. I mean, cause they, they are they're, they are their stories themselves. They are centered all of the time Uhhuh and um, that's just not enough, is it?
Julia: Apparently not, apparently we're not allowed to have June and have the representation and just what June represents and what pride represents.
Julia: Apparently that's not. Okay. And they're, and people are offended by that. And that just blows my mind because when you look at our educational systems, when you look at television and I've got some stats from glad, cuz they in January, I think it was in January or February, they re released their, um, report on representation.
Julia: And it's just one of those moments in life where it's like, oh, you clearly dunno what it's like to live in the margins or be on the outside if that's how you feel. Cause it's shitty to only have negative stereotypes being reinforced for like the first 30 years of your life.
John-John: Absolutely. But also. Getting when we get to like glad and, um, the LGBTQ community.
John-John: Um, I would definitely like to talk a little bit about, um, how it's basically centered around white whiteness there as well. That's a great point. Yep. And, you know, while, while we're being like, oh, this straights, the straights, the straights, this and the other, there's a problem here, this and the other, I think that the LGBTQ community definitely has a major issue.
John-John: Um, well this it, you can avoid race in this country. Right. It was built on it. We have, we have a one drop rule. Mm-hmm , um, you know, it's so hard to avoid. The way that it's just entrenched in our country. And if, you know, if you're a person who says, oh, I don't see it, this and the other, then you've definitely been drinking that Kool-Aid
Julia: yeah.
Julia: That's always a red flag to me when someone's like, I don't see color. And I'm just like, I,
John-John: I immediately try and look for that first exit. Yes. Yeah. I'm like, it's time for me to go. Right, right. No, I that's the thing I want you to see that I am black. I want you to see that I am gay. I want you to see all these things.
John-John: I think that these are the important things that you can see in our society. Mm-hmm and I think that, you know, our diversity of our country is what makes it so strong. It makes it unlike any other country in the world because we have everything coming together. Yeah. Yes. It, it, it also is the root of, I think a lot of our, you know, our turmoil and our problem and our strife in this country and our division in this country.
John-John: I mean, the fact that race is being used all the time to divide us and. I just don't think that we've, that the country has ever really mastered a way of, um, you know, properly incorporating everything and valuing everything. Yeah. And if we weren't all valued, I mean, if we were all valued, a lot of our problems would go away, but yeah, when we're using these things as ways to, you know, oppress or, you know, just discriminate against, I mean, they're basically the same thing.
John-John: Yeah. But, um, That's where we run into a lot of problems. Mm-hmm um, but there no other country in the world is quite like this as far as what we are able to produce. Right. Um, you know, um, if you're looking at our society as a whole or whatever, the fact that we have so many different types of people making.
John-John: You know, um, contributions, I think really makes this country quite dynamic. Um, I agree at its best PO at its best. Yeah, I agree.
Julia: And I, that's why I love the invention of the internet. I know the internet also is a breeding ground for some horrible things, but there's, I've never lived anywhere, but Modesto, California mm-hmm and if it weren't for the internet, I wouldn't be experiencing through other people's eyes.
Julia: What the world is like mm-hmm and that's been such a huge, I've always been a little left leaning. I've always been all these, whatever things mm-hmm , but being able to see the world through other people's eyes has been really fascinating to me because then it helps me get to understand. That part of the country a little bit better, what their life is like a little bit better.
Julia: And then in turn, I feel a little bit more empathetic towards their struggles, their plight whatever's happening with them. And then I wanna educate myself a little bit more to make sure I understand, because ultimately there's gonna be some sort of legislation in my country that requires voting and I wanna make sure I'm making the right informed decision, you
John-John: know, mm-hmm yeah, absolutely.
John-John: Absolutely. Yep.
Julia: This portion of the episode is brought to you by pleasant, creative company. Have you ever experienced analysis paralysis when trying to craft your business' brand, a new kind of brand kit that takes the decision making off your plate and delivers both strategy and a high quality visual identity.
Julia: The brand kit is designed to make branding your BI. Easy by taking out as many of the agonizing decisions as possible. Here's how it works. You start by taking the archetype brand quiz, which Kelly wrote to be reminiscent of those old 17 magazine quizzes. You remember those right? Once you finish the quiz, you'll get a link to your suggested archetypes brand kit.
Julia: This kit contains all the elements you need for a solid brand that reflects your brand's personality. No more pouring over color swatches, or trying to find just the right font. If you're ready to get yours, visit pleasant, creative.co today. On February 17th, 2022, glad reported that LGBTQ representation has reached an all time high with president and CEO, Sarah Kate Ellis stating quote, the growing state of LGBTQ representation on television is a signal that Hollywood is truly starting to recognize the power of telling LGBTQ stories that audiences around the world connect with.
Julia: She says at a time when anti LGBTQ legislation and violence continues to increase, it is cultural institutions like television that take on the crucial role of changing hearts and minds through diverse and inclusive storytelling. The report goes on to state that out of 775 series, regular characters scheduled to appear on scripted.
Julia: Broadcast prime time programming for the 20 21 20 22 season 92 characters are LGBTQ. So that's about 11.9%. Mm-hmm , that's still in my mind, a fairly low number compared, but compared to 20 15, 20 16 season, it's an 8% increase mm-hmm and a 2017 article from the advocate titled 17 LGBTQ tropes, Hollywood needs to retire.
Julia: Tracy E Gilchrist and Daniel Reynolds list. 17 tropes. We all know all too well. Yeah. And in my own memory of LGBTQ representation, nearly every trope listed is all I can remember of most of gay characters in the nineties and earlys two thousands. Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about what you think Hollywood is getting, right.
Julia: And what you think Hollywood is getting wrong when it comes to mainstream representation.
John-John: The gatekeepers are, they've got to go, we'll start with the wrong. Okay. Um, it, I mean, but they're the same, they're the same concerns that I see as a black person mm-hmm or just for people of color, um, the same group, um, Keeps on green lighting, you know, or, you know, or tweaking
Julia: stuff.
Julia: Like my biggest issue. I love the book, queen sugar. Like you, my people are from the south. Yeah. My grandfather loved being on the farm. That's you know, he was not a city guy. Yeah. And to read that book in this. Woman moves from LA to Louisiana because of a sugar cane farm. And she's an artist and her mom's this eloquent person fluent in French and all these things where I'm just like, yes, yes, yes.
Julia: I see parts of my black family in here. Mm-hmm and then Ava and Oprah redo, you know, do an adaptation. It's a great show. Yeah. But they, but they make the husband a basketball player instead of him being dead and you know, all these other things where I'm just like, really, like, I finally, I felt like I finally had something that I was like, yes, I see so much of my family in this hodgepodge, sad story of motherhood and self identity.
Julia: And then you take that and sort of reframe it to fit whatever. I thought it was fitting the narrative. Like the husband was dead in the story, but they bring him back to life to make him this big time basketball player. And he's a cheater and he is got this, you know, illegitimate child from somebody else.
Julia: That's a secret. And like all these things, I was like, really,
John-John: if we have do that. But I think in TV, Sometimes you do, and this is why, and this is why I, this is why I think we should have a discussion at some point about, um, why we cannot compare books to movies or books to TV shows some things that work well in like in a novel or a book or in literature just can't translate to what works well on primetime television.
John-John: Yeah. Unfortunately, and you know, like, I, I do see, yes, he, he's a basketball player, this and the other I'm like, once again, like, do we have to have another, you know, athlete being like, this is what a black man is or this and the other.
Julia: Yeah. And I think, I think that was part of my issue. I was like, you could have made him a lawyer, you could have made him something that wasn't an athlete that still had wealth and money and power.
Julia: Yeah.
John-John: But at the same time, I can also see the fact that he does wanna have like a, you know, a major role in his son's life or whatever, which is. It goes against that whole like deadbeat right. Narrative two or whatever. So I'm not giving, you know, I'm not saying, oh my God, this is like the end all be all of like what black male representation should look like on television.
John-John: Um, but yeah, um, It's much better than what we have seen in the past. Cause my God. Yeah. Oh my God. But, and that, that brings me to, you know, this 11%, um, I think that the fact that we have so many different options, as far as television shows go, um, or just networks or streaming aspects, that's why we are seeing such a, um, so many people getting opportunities.
John-John: Um, is that where it needs to be? Absolutely not. Right. Not even. And yeah, go ahead.
Julia: I was gonna say the, I forget the guy who's in charge of FX. Like somebody came in and did a report and was like, here's where you're missing the mark. Like your hello white TV is missing the mark and he. as far as I know is the only like exact who was just like, all right, we're gonna change.
Julia: We're gonna, we're gonna do better. And they did. They pretty much doubled their programming. And for those at home who don't know, FX is the home to Atlanta is the home to, it was posed, I think was on FX. Yeah. West pose mm-hmm um, and, and a, and a, a handful of other shows that were pretty, pretty, not, I won't say out there, but definitely would not see on network television.
Julia: Um, and they were like, we don't wanna be a part of the problem. We wanna be part of the solution and then made action. And I really respected them for that. I still think that there are some shows where I'm just like, I don't know about that show, but you do
John-John: boo . Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So superhero shows mm-hmm I think have been a major area for where you'll, you're seeing a lot of diversity and inclusion, which is interesting because you see a lot of, um, um, you see a lot of the directors a couple of years ago, or the past couple of years have been like attacking them saying they're not real shows this and the other da, da, da.
John-John: And it just is. So it just so happens that these directors basically have all majority white productions. Anyhow, mm-hmm so I'm like, um, I don't need your advice or your opinion for anything. Um, you all have, you know, Forced people in the margins out and have kept them out forever. And I'll be damned if I'm gonna listen to you saying, you know, what we're doing is art, but what the rest of the people are, you know, they're doing, you know, that's like, you know, that's hurting everyone.
John-John: Oh, it's hurting, you know, the ability for a million white folks to, you know, keep on having their stories told in rich ways or whatever, while the rest of us have to fight for scraps. Absolutely not. Yeah. But bring me back to that. Black lightning, for example, where, um, it's a Greg Berlanti, um, does that show and he did like dear Simon and, um, oh, love Simon and love Victor love.
John-John: Yep. And love Victor mm-hmm and, um, In most of his shows, there, there are gay characters and there is a gay, um, an LGBTQ storyline. And I really appreciate that. Um, so like in black lightning, I don't know if you've watched it love it. It's really, it's really
Julia: good. See, John, John endorsed, I have to now, and
John-John: the reason that it's so fantastic, um, is because it does more than just like the action and the fighting and this and the other.
John-John: There's always like some type of like social conscious, you know, storyline references, the music, everything. And, um, one of the, the, the main daughters is, um, a lesbian. Oh, yep. So it's, they're black. Um, and, uh, one of the main daughters is a lesbian and, um, she's in a, she's definitely in a, in a relationship.
John-John: They don't just have her just like, oh, she's a lesbian. And they never show like a love interest or anything like that. I mean, they show her as a real character like everybody else. And I think the show is really, really well done and it incorporates so, so much into it, you know, where can we watch this show?
John-John: Yep. It's on, um, Netflix now, but it's, uh, a CW show
Julia: CW, man. They've been, they've been kind of on the cutting edge for ever since they were the WB yep,
John-John: absolutely. Absolutely. With Dawson's Creek. Yes. Yes. exactly. So, yeah, they, um, they most definitely it's most definitely a, a great show that, um, I enjoy and I, I, you know, having the LGBTQ representation there is mm-hmm, in a, in a, in.
John-John: In a accurate, in a good way, um, is an added bonus. So yeah, he does that with most of his shows. You can, you'll find like an LGBTQ, um, storyline throughout. And I loved love Simon and love Victor. I love, love Victor. I haven't
Julia: watched love Victor yet, but I love, love Simon.
John-John: Oh my God. If you, if you love, love Victor love Simon or whatever.
John-John: You'll love, love Victor. Okay.
Julia: My friend and I went and saw I was gonna take my son and I love to go to the movies together. And for whatever reason, he didn't wanna go this time when it released. And so my friend and I went and we're probably the oldest people in the room, so this is 2018. So I was 34.
Julia: Okay. So it's all 20 somethings mm-hmm , which was kind of a cool experience. Everyone's into the movie. Everyone's feeling the emotions. You can feel it in the room. And then at the end, when you get the payoff everyone's here and I'm not usually the person who's like, yeah, let's clap and cheer in a movie theater.
Julia: That's not necessarily my style. Yeah. But everyone was just so overcome with emotion that it was just like, we all were like, yeah. And it just felt so G I, those are the moments I love when you have a solo, but collective experience. Absolutely. And it definitely impacted me and I read the book too, and I thought it was a really good adaptation.
Julia: Um, and I just, it's one of the ones that's in circulation in my house. We, I put it on whenever I just need to feel, I don't know. Better. Yeah.
John-John: yeah. Um, I love, um, Love Victor, I think was even better than love Simon. Oh, okay. Yeah. And, um, I, I'm a big fan of like, you know, diversity and having that's on
Julia: freeform, right.
John-John: Or it was on freeform. Um, no, no, no. It was, um, Hulu. Okay. Wait. Yes. It was either Hulu or Netflix. It's one of them. It's one of them. We have, we have so many, there are so many different options now, and this is why you can have shows like that being made because there are, um, there are different platforms mm-hmm and people are taking more.
John-John: Um, I don't wanna say risk or chances, but yeah, they're going, but
Julia: there is a different level of freedom when you're streaming service and yeah. Netflix seems to be okay with taking risks. Yeah. They, they've never really shied away from that. HBO is kind of like, sometimes they take risks, but they take risks in a different way.
John-John: they? Yeah, absolutely. But yeah. Um, I mean, yeah. Um, it might not necess might not necessarily be the best images of LGBTQ characters, but I remember, um, watching Oz and there were, there was a same sex storyline. Yeah. Involving, um, Chris Maloney who was a Stabler on, um, uh, law order. S yeah, yeah. SVU and now organized crime or whatever.
John-John: But yeah, I remember seeing stuff like that and I'm like, oh, this is the first time I've seen like men actually like kissing or this and the other. Um, yeah. Uh, as problematic as many of those storylines were in that show. I mean, but it still was a way that I think that middle America was the first time they had seen.
John-John: Man on man action like that, or, yeah, because
Julia: one of the tropes that is talked about in that article I mentioned earlier is, you know, girl on girl is hot mm-hmm . And, and when I think about the nineties and I think about the two thousands and how many jokes were made around that, but then there was such controversy around seeing two men kiss on TV.
Julia: Yeah, absolutely. And it was like, I couldn't reconcile, I couldn't reconcile it because I was just like, but it's, you know what I mean? Like my teenage brain couldn't figure out why one was praised and one was like, weaponized, I didn't get it. Well,
John-John: yeah. It's because of toxic male masculinity. I get it now.
John-John: Yeah, they are they're. They are, um, they're the. They are the gatekeepers mm-hmm, essentially and white males. Um, they are the gatekeepers and, you know, this appealed to them, you know, seeing women on women fan, I can't relate to that clearly. um, and I'm, you know, happy not to relate to it, but, um, I guess that was their fantasies living out.
John-John: So you'll see like a Britney Spears and Madonna having their kiss on stage at the MTV mu music awards. And people are like, oh, this is so great. Da, da, da, this and the other don't know if that would've gone over the same way. If you had two men doing the same thing, right. I still don't think we've ever seen that at a, at an award show.
John-John: Um, I don't
Julia: there was, when did, when was Brian Gosling nominated for LA LA land, whatever year that was okay. Whoever was sitting next to him. And again, this is one of those things where you're, you know, you're kind of making a joke of the situation, right? So like, yeah. Whoever was sitting next to him and maybe it was Andrew Garfield said, don't kiss your, if you win, don't kiss your who you're with Eva, Eva Mendez, I think is who he was with.
Julia: Kissed me. Yeah. And he didn't win, but he ki they kissed each other anyway. And I don't, I know I've seen photos of it. I don't know if it aired during the live show. Oh, interesting. But still, you know, it was like,
John-John: it's it, it's making a mockery of it. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And as you know, Brittany and Madonna, I felt like made a mockery of lesbians with their kiss or whatever people were still like, Ooh, this is like cool.
John-John: Or da, da, da. So whatever, what
Julia: kind, what do you think? So you listed, um, Our fellow who did love Simon love Victor and a couple others. What do you think, who else do you think is getting it right in Hollywood?
John-John: It's a big drop off after that. um, it, it is, um, there, I mean,
Julia: cause it feels like there's not, people are acting like there's not enough room at the table for everybody and I just don't feel like that's true.
John-John: Um, I've interviewed a number of people who basically say build your own table.
Julia: Oh yeah. I mean, that's kind of what you have to do now.
Julia: Right.
John-John: It's kind of what you have to do. I mean, you know, when you just have every door shut off to you, mm-hmm you have to be like, screw it. I'm going to do my own thing. Yeah. Ryan Murphy, uh, you know, has a number of products out there, projects out there where there are LGBTQ, you know, characters. Um, Hollywood was interesting.
John-John: I was gonna ask if you had seen that. Yeah, I did. Um, I thought it was interesting in looking how. You're kind of turning reality on its ear. Mm-hmm , um, to kind of like reshape a narrative and, you know, while people are like, oh, how can you do this? Hm, white people who do this every day. Mm-hmm those shows that I was talking to about the 90 shows in, um, New York that is shifting reality and putting it on its ear reality in New York city does not look like friends or sex in the, the old sex in the city.
John-John: Yeah. Or, um, Seinfeld. Yeah, there are, it's a diverse area. So when you go out of your way to showcase, basically just, and it's like the sixth senses, I only see white people um, that is, you know, that is, that is that's shifting reality. That is, you know, make making sure that your reality looks like.
John-John: Something that in which this country really isn't, mm-hmm um, this country in, in many places is not a homogenous area of just, you know, just straight white Christian people. Mm-hmm
Julia: what kind of impact do you think it would've made on you? If stories like this existed in the teenage realm when you were in high school, like in this more diverse setting that we have, because I mean, I have a whole bookcase dedicated to LGBTQ stories.
Julia: Yeah. That wasn't a thing 20 years
John-John: ago. Absolutely. I think it, it would've, it would have probably, um, affected my peers more. Which I think will then affect everybody else. Sure. So when you are taking a lot of the stigma away, when you are showing that there is, you know, um, that there are layers to these communities, it's very hard then to say, this is how a gay person is mm-hmm or this is what, you know, they do, or, you know, this, this, this, and this, or whatever, where you have like this just narrow view of what, you know, a person or a group is like.
John-John: Um, I think that that's where the, the issues were. I never had a problem hating myself. I never, oh, good. I never, you know what I mean? Yeah. Never hated myself depressed about not having other, you know, outlets or people. Absolutely. Yes. But, you know, I have that, I've, you know, I have that as a black person.
John-John: Right. You know what I mean? So I think that that definitely also helped, um, because I was already used to. You know, feeling a certain type of way about being, you know, a marginalized person in society. Um, but, um, gosh, I lost my thought. I think I'll, I'm gonna get back to it. That's fine. Um, but I do think that affecting the way that others see you or the majority sees people.
John-John: Yeah. You know, I think that's a big thing cuz I'm not, I wasn't walking around saying, oh, that's gay or, oh, this isn't the other dah, dah, da, you know what I mean? I wasn't the one who had issues with gay people. Right. Um, they were, and they needed to have their eyes opened and the only way they could have done that is to see more and more mm-hmm , you know, images and, you know, to make things a little more, um, uh, Easy or accepting for others to feel more comfortable coming out.
John-John: And, you know, not thinking that, you know, a Matthew shepherds type situation was going to be the reality of what was gonna happen, um, to them because, you know, hate crimes and gay bashing, that was, it is still a real thing. But that was, that was a, a legitimate fear at that point. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was yeah.
John-John: Between that. And, um, or then, you know, just having the stigma of just having aids placed on the community. Um, and that was like, That was it, or that was the only type of character you would see on TV or whatever. So, yeah, the, the, those were the realities of living in the early, mid to early nineties.
John-John: Mm-hmm
Julia: so I love that you bring up that point though, cuz it's kind of the theme of, in the sense of like it would've affected other people because that's kind of the whole point. I think of why I do the show that I do because I will die on this fucking hill. Mm-hmm literature. Media, it influences, it impacts it helps us grow in ways that we didn't ever expect.
Julia: And when you have negative representation, you are not doing anybody, any favors. And when you have something that's good and, and it's fiction, but it's based on someone's reality. You're allowing space for someone to grow and think, huh? I never considered that before. That's different for me, but interesting.
Julia: And here are some areas of that person that I can identify with. Even if, even though I'm not a black man who's gay, or even if I'm not a, a Latino woman who, you know, whatever the descriptors are. And it is so important to me that we stop doing these horrible representations because. That input becomes output and then you have just trash and we can't be trashed to people.
Julia: I just can't, I can't with the trash people anymore. Like stop being trashed to my people. stop being trashed to women. Like, yeah. It's just it's so it makes me so angry. Yeah. So instead of getting mad and crying every day, cuz that's a reality that still happens. You know, we come on here and examine all the stuff that influenced us and ch and hopefully can challenge, you know, why do we think this way and what impacted us and how could it be better?
Julia: Because I want my kids going through that. I don't want my grandkids going through that. I want a better world for them.
John-John: Yeah, absolutely. And do I think that we only need positive images from these groups? No, I don't think that's reality. Yeah. But at the same time, I think that there has to be some type of overcompensation mm-hmm for just having such a void of positive.
John-John: You know, I mean, obviously, um, because I say this all the time, when I write stories, um, I want to write just because stories for black people mm-hmm or for marginalized groups, I want to write the same type of just because stories that white people have enjoyed forever. Mm-hmm there, you know, no one is mentioning their, you know, the fact that they are white as the justification for writing this story, they're just writing it.
John-John: Yeah. And I want that for, you know, obviously for, um, Marginalized groups with that said, I know that we are far we're far away from that. So now we, we, we have to sh I think I'm in full, um, support of showcasing mm-hmm excellence in those communities as much as you can, because they are, they are constantly beaten down mm-hmm and, you know, torn apart and, you know, stereotype.
John-John: That's what being marginalized means. Yeah. Um, unfortunately you just don't get to enjoy the same things as the majority and being treated as like having this individual look, um, where, you know, I'm sure you, you see this too. Um, uh, one person, like from our groups. Represents the entire group. Right. Right.
John-John: People can enjoy individuality. Mm-hmm they can always say, Nope, that's just, that's that person mm-hmm that's not us. That's them. That's that person they're like the lone Wolf or they're this, that, and the other for us, we represent. Every single person mm-hmm we never have that level of, um, individuality.
John-John: Yeah. There's always the, you know, the pressure of stereotyping, there's always the pressure of this and the other. And that's, I mean, ultimately that's how white supremacy has worked in this country and it's probably one of the most dangerous things that long lasting effects that we have seen. Yeah. Um, that, um, a white person can just go out and be themselves and not have their actions represent their, their, the entire group as a whole.
John-John: Right. Right. And I think there's power. There's a lot of power in that. And, um, I, I hope that, you know, ultimately I think that's when we will achieve some type of. Closer to utopian society when we're all judged as individuals and not just as like a group, right. As a
Julia: whole. Right. So it's a lot of pressure and it's unfair.
Julia: It is 100% unfair because my friend, Nikki, and I talk about this all the time, her dad's from, oh, shoot, listen, she's gonna be pissed. Cause I can't remember what country dad is from. cause we talk about it on the regular
John-John: stop listening, Nikki. Yeah.
Julia: sorry, your on. Sorry. Um, and, and just the cultural difference that she experiences because her mom's, you know, from this country, but her dad's from a country that is on the continent of Africa and just the, okay.
Julia: The head headbutting is the wrong word, but there's, you know, there's this.
Julia: I oh, I'll go with difference between the two, right? Absolutely. Like the cultural experiences that her dad experienced and the cultural experiences that her mom experienced. And then the two don't, they're not the same story, but because of the color of their skin, everyone assumes that they have the same story.
Julia: So then that's, you know, and that's just not fair and that's unfortunate and a lot of pressure, and we always talk about how it's hard wearing the armor in the real world. So please just leave us alone when we get home, because that's when we wanna rest and let us rest, like don't fuck with my rest.
John-John: yeah, yeah, absolutely.
John-John: But yeah. Yeah, it it's, um, it's a prime example when I went to, even though I, I always knew that there is, you know, black people ran a spectrum, like a thought and you know, and color and, you know, um, complexions and this and the other, um, It. I mean, and my parents instilled that in me from day one and ex you know, exposed, you know, my sister and my, and myself to so many different things so that we didn't have this narrow view of what black was, but it wasn't until I went to Howard university where I really saw it.
John-John: And I mean like, yeah, you see it from. Just a regional aspect of black people, black people from the west coast are, or even Southern California versus Northern California are much different than yep. Um, than black people from like Chicago or Detroit or from the Northeast or from the south, or then from the deep south or from like, you know what I mean, areas like Texas, I mean, even the, the bay
Julia: area to the valley where I am, like, it is a culture shock for our friends, from the bay area move here.
Julia: They're just like the fuck is this place. welcome to get out.
John-John: And I have, um, I have a good amount of family in the bay area. I definitely, I know what you mean. Um, it's, it's a different, it's a different world. Yeah. Um, but then even. Having international black people, mm-hmm um, black people from Africa in different areas of Africa are much different than others. And then Caribbean, black people yeah.
John-John: Are much different. And then you have Afro Latinos, you have, um, you know, black people from all over the country. You have, you know, black people who identify as black and are biracial or black people. You know what I mean? Yeah. There is just, there is just so much, there is just so much there and it's, you know, you can't go to a place like Howard and then leave there at the end of the day saying, oh, this is what, you know, this narrow view of black people, you all are all like this.
John-John: Or, you know what I mean? And I feel felt I feel the same way about the LGBTQ community because there is just so much there. Yeah. Um, you know, and it deserves, you might not. Yeah. Politically we might not even align as, you know, being part of the LGBTQ community. They're like these log cabin Republicans who.
John-John: Have nothing in common with, and yeah. Yeah. And you have like, now a person like a Caitlin Jenner who is, I mean, has
Julia: said very problematic things in
John-John: public. Yep. And is part of, but there, she's also part of the trans community and I know that many trans people cannot stand her, but she's still there. Right.
John-John: So it's very hard to like, you know, I think that there are things that are, mm, on brand for gay people. Sure. Or the LGBTQ community. There are certain things that, you know, kind of unite them as a whole. Sure. There are always gonna be outliers. So with anyone, there are no absolutes with anything mm-hmm
John-John: But with that said, um, there are certain things that I would say a majority of the LGBTQ community would be, or members of. Those letters mm-hmm um, would be in favor, in favor of, or in, you know, or would endorse or whatever versus other things. Right. But, um, yeah. Um, it's just, it's no different, we have, we run, you know, the spectrum of everything.
John-John: Yeah. But yeah.
Julia: Yeah. And personally, I love it when there's a new story being told that maybe wasn't told before, because it helps me understand the depths that are within the community. I think it's, for me, it's important because again, being in Modesto, California, I've got limited exposure here and. You know, when I see something through a screen, uh, it's my starting point.
Julia: It's my starting point for whatever that, if, if I'm not familiar with it, right. It's my starting point for what I wanna explore, how to understand. And I think that's why I love seeing so much more coming out for high school narrative and to your point earlier about, you know, um, that representation being important and just having those conversations, I think that's why we're seeing books being banned in states that deal with LGBTQ storylines and themes because there's fear there and the fear is
John-John: irrational.
Julia: Yes. And you're just like, wait a minute. I don't. Okay. Alright. You okay?
John-John: Y'all you're because as many, as many books that I read in high school are, you know, throughout my, you know, academic career that featured straight charactershuh, I'd be straight. You would think, right? Yeah. I mean, that's how it works.
John-John: Like, no, that if you're reading something and then there's a, a, you know, a character that's a certain sexuality mm-hmm and you, um, you read it, then you're automatically going to be converted to that. Right. That group it's scary. So it's that the case I've only had, you know, straight people around me, two straight people produced me.
John-John: Yeah. You know what I mean? um, I've, I've lived in a heteronormative, you know, world for my entire life. How in, how is it that I turned out to be this gay of a person, right? Yep. Because I wa there weren't, there weren't the images or the TV shows or this and the other, I was BU I've been bombarded by messaging of, you know, going to be straight or yes.
John-John: You know, this and the other. And somehow I. I became became gay. Yeah. It's such a dumb argument.
Julia: It really is. And so the other day on one of these, like I follow one of these book, producer people, publishers, and they commented about like, what's a classic novel that could be replaced or something. I am so over us reading the great Gatsby, like I can't, I've taken far too many English courses.
Julia: Well, I've taken a lot of English courses cuz that's was my track in college and under and graduate school. And everyone's like, this is the gold standard, like Fitzgerald and catching therye and Sal, you know, Salinger and you know, then they sprinkle in some people like you're always gonna have either, you know, someone's gonna pull in Morrison or, or, um, my
John-John: Angela even Morrison's books, are they they're they try and ban them every time they get a chance.
John-John: Yes.
Julia: Well, this time somebody was like, please don't take away great Gatsby because it's the only book. Teenagers love. Well, my son was in AP English. He didn't like it. I was in English. I didn't like it.
John-John: Why did they, why, why did they love that book? I
Julia: have no idea because I've never experienced people who actually genuinely loved that book.
Julia: Like I only have experienced people who are like, we have to read this again. And so my argument was, was like, Hey, you could remove the great Gatsby, bring in passing by N Larson, same era, similar themes. But then you can actually have a conversation about race that isn't radically charged with whatever emotions you're feeling because you're white and fragile.
Julia: And like, I didn't say it like that on the internet, cuz I'm very that's
John-John: problem. Getting him cakes. They don't want those images. Ever addressed or described.
Julia: Correct. Cause I was like, are we really still going to force white male lens stories on our children today? Like cool. Like make it supplemental real.
Julia: Yes. Yes.
John-John: That's precisely exactly. That is the
Julia: goal and the brainwashing behind it, of like we have to, because it's a classic and I'm just like, it's a classic because some asshole decided it was a classic, you know what? I'm gonna call it classic. Not that book
John-John: yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I mean like, look, I don't, I'm not, I'm not saying, oh, ban the great, great Gaby, but at the same time, I'm like, I'm trying to, you know, think of the, the right words so that I don't necessarily get into trouble.
John-John: Yes. Or what yes, yes. What I'm gonna say it, uh, it, it plays into like this, you know, into the wants and needs of white America. They, you know, the fact. Oh, you know, you can come out of nowhere and just make it mm-hmm Gasby couldn't have done that as a black person. No, he wouldn't have opened the door to him ever.
John-John: No. You know, to reinvent himself or have this talented Mr. Ripley moment that just couldn't work with us. There is just so much. Yep. Or, um, You know, couldn't have worked as like a woman is like the centered part of that story. Like this only works because it is going through the lens of, you know, the white male experience.
John-John: Mm-hmm, the fact that they've centered around them. They are this glamorized, like hero type. You know, larger than life. Like they are just, you know, the masters of industry and this and the other, and yeah, all this in, it just goes into like their just indulges them to the nth degree and Uhhuh it's like, and it's
Julia: exhausting and it's, this is again, I'm gonna another hill I'm gonna on.
Julia: We need to be studying Nella Larson in high school because she touches on, you've got a character who's choosing to pass on purpose. Yeah. And a character who passes for convenience. Yeah. So then you have this conversation of race and the construct of race and it's happening in New York city because people still wanna think that the north didn't have anything to do with racism.
Julia: I don't know where that narrative came from. And, and so you're having, you're seeing it through, you know, the one character who passes for convenience is lens. I'm sorry if you've read this book, I probably shouldn't be explaining it to you cuz that's just rude
John-John: and we no, no, no. It's totally fine because the audience might not have.
John-John: Yeah. And they might not have. They might not have seen the, they might not have seen the movie, which we should also talk about at a certain point at a yes.
Julia: And so you have like, there's this scene that's so powerful where it's the three of them, um, Irene and, and the two other Claudia. And I forget the other.
Julia: And so they're talking about their children and the fear they had about what their children would come out. And my gr like I've told the story on the show before my grandmother was not allowed to play outside because her mother didn't want them to get darker. Yes. Because she wanted to be able to pass for convenience.
Julia: Yes. And so that kind of hiding who you are was passed down. To my dad, which was passed down to me. Yeah. And to break free from that has been really fucking hard. And I'm not the only one there are. Oh, it happens all the time. All hundreds of thousands of people who have that same generational trauma coercing through them.
Julia: Can we please talk about passing in school?
John-John: yeah. Yeah. Abso absolutely. And colorism, it doesn't even have to be as, it doesn't even have to be as extreme as passing. Right. Just, you know what I mean? Just having that, you know, the, the whiter or the more European, your, you know, your features. You know, this and the other, I mean, that's more acceptable.
John-John: Yeah. I mean, I remember Gabrielle union one time in an interview said like every day she would like pinch her nose so that it wouldn't, it wouldn't, you know, be as broad or as wide. Um, yeah. And if you ever read the book are, are kind of people, um, there is a chapter in it specifically on passing and it is heartbreaking.
John-John: And if, if you, if there is this one thing you should read that chapter it's, it's haunting. I, I read that like when it first, you know, like maybe probably like two decades ago or when it, when it, when it came out and it St those anecdotes still stick in my mind, and it's really painful to even think about, you know, one girl who had to.
John-John: Take a daily bath in bleach and milk and had her knees and elbows scrubbed with, um, uh, scrubbed with, I think it was like maybe lemon juice or something like that to like remove the darkness. And she wasn't allowed to play outside or whatever. And, you know, there was another who, um, she was a lightest in her family and everyone thought that her mom was like the maid or whatever, but the mom made, made sure that she remained the lightest because they didn't want her to, I guess, experience the things that, you know, darker skin, black people would.
John-John: It was, it it's, it's really, really powerful stuff and really haunting and just so upsetting and just such a reminder of that white supremacy plays such a role in society and having everything like. You know, centered around that mm-hmm and the white, the white lens and the white gaze is very, very, very powerful.
John-John: Yeah. And we see this going throughout every single group, they all have the, especially in this country, they all have. Um, well, I can't even say that. I mean, the white lens is, you know, the, the standard for the world. Yeah. Um, yeah. And unfortunately we all have to live through that. Um, build our own
Julia: tables apparently.
John-John: Yeah. building, building an O your own table is a, a necessary thing. Mm-hmm or finding, um, white people who, and they, they do exist and there are plenty out there who don't have a problem. You know, telling accurate stories of all people. Yeah. I mean, yeah, this is a, I mean they do exist, obviously, Steven Spielberg, at that time, mm-hmm, existed for the color purple.
John-John: Yeah. And to take on a, a piece like that. Right. Um, you know, and it's a difficult, fairly difficult book. I mean, you're re you're reading it or whatever, and it, you know, it takes some thought and some type of like, you know, dedication, um, just like Tony Morrison books. Right. Um, she, I mean, she's just on such a different level mm-hmm of intelligence.
John-John: Yep. And I'm not just counting her because she went to my Alma mater I am saying that Tony Morrison is completely brilliant. Um, she. I mean, I know that Tony Morrison has now passed, so I'm not, I don't want to talk about her as if she's like living, you know, now or whatever, but her
work
Julia: lives on. So it's almost home Sheely lives on.
Julia: So it's
John-John: like, she's still living. Yep. It's timeless. I don't think that we're ever gonna get to a point where people are gonna be like, Oh, that's easy reading or that doesn't require much thought, right. Or this is just so simple, simplistic and this and the other, she is very deep. Yeah. She is well researched, you know, she has, like, there are just so many things that I think make, make her work almost impossible to turn into a movie or bring to another genre because it's just, it's just so complex.
John-John: And I don't think that many people are able to get on that same type of level. Yeah. But that's a different, that's a difference. Scary.
Julia: Yeah, it is. But Hey, you know what? I could talk to you
John-John: forever. Oh yeah, yeah. In, I do have to say that I'm excited about the new queerest folk coming back and yes, I saw that.
John-John: Yep. It's gonna be on peacock I believe. And oh, peacock. Um, once again, another streaming service. Yeah. That's offering. You know, more, you know, opportunities. I mean, they did the same thing with saved by the bell. I think they had a non, um, a non-binary character mm-hmm or just the character from the LGBTQ community that was never in the first.
John-John: And I loved, you know, I loved the first, but they, I don't think they're they even sneezed the word gay, let alone had any type of gay representation in the film. No, Zach Morris
Julia: is a horrible person. oh, I thought he was so dreamy.
John-John: I mean,
John-John: I mean, yeah, he, he is, he's a dreamy guy. He is, but we all have physically
Julia: yeah. Would say it's well established that I have a thing for basic white boys. I just like to look at 'em.
John-John: Oh, but here, this is, this is a, um, this is a little wrinkle in that his mom is Asian. Yeah. I had no idea. Mark. Mark. Paul gosler is.
John-John: Asian he's biracial. He's team mixed. He is. How did
Julia: I miss that? OMG, they're gonna kick me out of the club. Cause I had no
John-John: idea he's BI he's biracial. Absolutely. So yeah, that, I love that. Yeah. That's and there you go about, you know, with, you know, the phenomenon of passing in general or people just having like the default thinking that, you know, he has blonde hair or this and the other he's automatically this, but yeah, especially as he's gotten older, though, you.
John-John: You can see that there's a little something, something going on. Yeah.
Julia: And he is fine grown. I cannot like the TV show pitch. I was like, oh yeah, I
John-John: loved pitch. Oh, me, me too. Oh, with the facial hair. I was like, oh sir. Mm-hmm
Julia: like, I didn't know. I needed you as a professional ball player on TV. Thank you, Fox.
Julia: Yeah. It's the only thing I'm thinking
John-John: Fox for. I was so upset when that show got canceled. Cause I thought it was really well done. I agree. I thought there was so much potential for it and I liked his character in it. Um, the lead, um, I forget her name, but she's, she's stunning and she's great. Um, and she play
Julia: the character very well, cuz the pressure of being the first female in the major league baseball and like all this stuff, she embodied that in a way that felt so true and authentic that I was just like, I
John-John: needed this show yeah, it it's it's so well done.
John-John: Yeah. Was so well done. I'm I'm sad to see that it I'm sad that it it's gone. And it's been a couple years now since it's been off the air, but representation does matter and yeah, there's just something about seeing characters that kind of reflect you. They don't have to be you're a carbon copy of what you are.
John-John: Yeah. But they can be walking in the same. in the same line as you mm-hmm um, you are in this world and there's something about that that probably makes, you know, makes it easier to keep going. Yeah. And people are like, oh, TV, it's like vapi or this, you know, escapism this and the other, which I think is totally needed.
John-John: Mm-hmm , um, people need an escape from reality and they need to see themselves reflected in, in different spaces. I mean, I, I definitely went to Howard after, um, in large part after watching a different world.
Julia: Yes. Oh my gosh. The list of shows that you're coming back for is getting longer because I'm working on a project where we talk about the real life implications of certain.
Julia: Television shows positive and negative because I know there is negative, real life implications too. And a different world is one of the ones that we're gonna dive deep into
John-John: and then LA law and, um, you know, um, inspiring a, just a generation of lawyers. Mm-hmm, that's well documented. Yeah. You know, shows like, ER, saying elsewhere, like people wanting to become doctors yes.
John-John: As a result of that. Yes. And I'm sure like, even with Grey's anatomy, you're probably gonna have a, a whole bunch of STD infected children running around because you know, they've, you know, that, that was even in sleeping together in the story. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that, and that that's a, a storyline in Grey's anatomy, they make, you know, reference to it, this and the other there, I believe there was like a big syphilis outbreak or something like that on the show.
Julia: Okay. Listen, I track STD statistics in my county for fun and oh, okay. In, in 2020, I wanna say in July of 20, 20 funny.
John-John: Uh, oh,
Julia: uh, syphilis was up by like 70% syphilis was up by like 70%. Oh. And I'm like, y'all, we're supposed to be not being seen each other. How the fuck did you make that? Come back. anyway.
Julia: Mm-hmm anyway,
John-John: they were breaking out of that bubble.
Julia: They were, they were like, we're just gonna share all the bubbles and diseases and I'm like, I don't want
John-John: your diseases.
Julia: yeah. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm in February of 2020 apple plus released a five episode docu-series titled visible out on television, which explores the history of LGBTQ representation in Hollywood. Like they go back to like, yeah, the start of TV. This, I thought this series was excellent. We mentioned Roston cruise earlier.
Julia: He was cited as one of the executive producers. Wanda Sykes also has an executive producer credit. This show highlights the progress that has been made in Hollywood as noted earlier, representation is at an all time high, but 11% is still kind of low. So I wanna know what you would, what you hope for, for the future of LGBTQ in representation in Hollywood.
John-John: Yeah. Well, first I think that you need to have writers in that writing room. Um, so I would hope that there are more. Um, LGBTQ people or LGBTQ friendly people, um, pursuing careers as writers and directors and casting directors, people who are able to ensure that representation goes there. Um, or, um, yeah, I think that's the most important thing, because unless there are people, oh, and then, you know, executive producers and studio heads or whatever need to absolutely change.
John-John: Um, they've had, you know, decades and decades and decades and decades and decades to get it right. They haven't mm-hmm and I'm tired of hearing their excuses. They've just got to go. Yeah, they have to go wait. I'm, I'm just, I'm done hearing, you know, the same people say, oh, we can't do it. Or, oh, this and the other, they can find ways to make New York city, um, As white as can, as white can be.
John-John: Yeah. They did it in the nineties. They could, they can, you know, showcase some diversity and if they're having some resistance lead follower, get out of the way. I believe in that, that, that, um, that saying, uh, so like, yeah, I just don't. I have no patience right now for people who are like, we can't do this because it's been done like this forever.
John-John: Yeah. Um, no, this cut this world, um, is Browning. This world is being more open and honest and living in their own truths more and more. Um, there is no reason for people to be, um, to be forced into a closet in 2022. There is no reason for us not to show that, you know, relationships. Our, you know, right outside of just a, a traditional Christian mm-hmm based relationship.
Julia: Yeah. Mom, dad, 2.5 kids. Fuck
John-John: that shit. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's think half of a child, where is this half of a child? I know I was uncomfortable. I comfortable we're I know like seriously, like but yeah, I just it's um, I think that the change begins behind the scenes mm-hmm and at the, the infancy, the planning stages of these projects.
John-John: Yeah. Um, that's where, that's where I think the real work needs to be done. Um, so we need more adaptation. Uh, we need gay writers writing all the time and, or just writing about these, these, um, these aspects, so that. There will be a, um, a potential for that to be turned into a TV show or a movie, or, you know, screenwriters all that it's necessary.
John-John: Um, though, that's when we will start seeing more change when we start flooding, um, flooding the market with like good projects. Um, I just don't think it just can be just anything just for the sake of being anything.
Julia: Right. I hate representation for representations sake. That actually drives me really crazy, cuz that just feels like you're smack.
Julia: You're just being like, ha fuck you. Like, that's what it feels like. It feels like you're telling us fuck you.
John-John: But yeah, but we, we, we mentioned plenty of people who are from marginalized groups who obviously produce such quality. Excellence mm-hmm um, across the board and throughout time, um, they are there mm-hmm and it's just a, it's just the, um, the willingness of those people in charge to say, oh, I see value in this.
John-John: Right. And not just seeing value in. The white male wins. Great.
Julia: Gasby mm-hmm catcher in the Ry.
John-John: Yeah. Yeah.
Julia: I was on a date with the guy once and he was like, I really related to Holden Cofield. I was like, and we're done, sir. I can't with you. Like, this is not gonna work. That shit's chaotic. I don't do chaos.
John-John: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Julia: In 2022, the positive representation is still under attack. There seems to be confusion on what representation means. So for our friends at home, we're gonna do a real quick refresh who don't understand. And then you have some talking points for your friends who don't understand also, and you can maybe help course correct.
Julia: In the context of media representation is the description or portrayal of someone. Or something in a particular way, or as being of a certain nature when that description or portrayal is fueled by negative stereotypes and tropes that reaffirm ignorance, there can be real life implications wanting to be seen as human, a person with feelings, fears, hopes, dreams, and emotions, and the wish to exist without persecution is not a crime.
Julia: Yeah. Asking for representation that embodies the true complexities of being a person that lives within the margins. Isn't a threat. It's the necessary progress society takes. So we can evolve into a better species. Yeah. John, John. Yeah. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. Can you please tell our friends at home where they can find you if they wanna keep
John-John: up with you on?
John-John: Yeah. So, um, I say Instagram is primarily where I exist on, um, social media. Um, I find it to be the most palatable for me. um, I, I mean, I support
Julia: that. I have following on Instagram and I love it. ,
John-John: you'll see tons of great food pictures, and, you know, my me going out, being out and about, and my little adventures here and there.
John-John: And I also share my work as be as a reporter. Um, so in my bio, I always have my most recent article that I've written, um, or the most impactful article that I've written. Um, I do think that I, I do do work that, um, uh, is important, uh, to society and I'm, I'm able to break new ground on a lot of different story ideas.
John-John: I have a story this week. I think that's running, um, About, uh, the drag community that I think will be quite eyeopening. Ooh. Um, you know, the realities that the drag community face, um, I'm not going to give it away just in case. Yeah. Don't, you know yep. Just in case, um, it's delayed for space or whatever, it's a lengthy piece, but, um, yeah.
John-John: Um, I'm a reporter at the Baltimore sun. You can find my stuff there. Just Google me. J O H N hyphen, J O H N Williams. And I'm the fourth. So that's my byline. It's my actual real name. Um, so if you type that in there, very few, you have to do John hyphen, John . Cause if you do John Williams, it's uh, it's the.
John-John: The, the great conductor mm-hmm, from star wars, um, and Jurassic park and all those things. That's a different person. Yeah. Um, but John, John Williams, the fourth you'll get me and the Baltimore son or just my name, my stories will usually pop up that way.
Julia: Yeah. And friends, I encourage you to follow John, John.
Julia: He, like he said, he shares his work with his Instagram audience and it's always such a, it's just, there's something about your writing that is so powerful and impactful, but yet it feels like it's
John-John: relatable. Yes. And accessible. Yes. And
Julia: I love that and it just makes me so happy and it feels like, it feels like this is what being, this is what just existing feels like to me, if that makes sense,
John-John: you know?
John-John: Yeah. No, no, absolutely. Yep. Thank you. That's that's a compliment. Thank you.
Julia: So I think what we'll do also is, um, a couple of my favorite articles of yours. I think I'll link him in the show notes. So that way people can kind of also take the journey with you and he's not wrong. He shares a lot of foods.
Julia: Now I know where I'm eating. If I ever make it to the other side of the country, well, you know, I do
John-John: travel. I travel a bit and if you go through or whatever, I have tons of things for. Um, the bay area I used to go like before COVID like, I would be there at least like once to twice a year. Oh, okay. Napa valley is my like happy place.
John-John: I, yeah. Oh my gosh. Yes. Um, no comment. I just, I, yeah, I, I love, I love that area and like the food scene, you all have just insane. You all take farm to table to a different level. Mm-hmm and it's so wonderful. And I, yeah, love it.
Julia: I love farm to table and people, you know, there's like a whole thing of people like Hmm, whatever mockery of it.
Julia: And I'm just like, you have never experienced it the right way. Then if that is, if you have a negative opinion, you don't know what you're talking about. Yep. Um, and, and where I am, we have citrus everywhere and it's just, yes. I don't know if I could live anywhere where I couldn't have oranges on Christmas day that were just freshly picked off the tree.
Julia: Like that's normal here. You know
John-John: what? I'm tired of the bragging. Now we don't need to hear , you know, I don't need to hear anything else from you. This, this really needs to wrap up. You're bragging right now.
Julia: We're I'm going to extend an open invitation for you to come back anytime, because I think that I think your voice is important.
Julia: I think it's impactful. And I think that what you have to say about pop culture is, um, just really. I'm gonna say important again, cuz it's getting late and might the source is slowing down. It's really okay. But you know, one of the things that really bothers me is just how much pop culture coverage is still very white.
Julia: Oh yeah. And I, and we need to see it through other people's lenses. We just have to because it, we just, anyway, that's not the point. The point is is you have an open invitation, I'm gonna follow up with you about some of the other titles we talked about to bring you back.
John-John: all right. Absolutely.
Julia: Yes. Friends at home.
Julia: Thank you so much for tuning in. I appreciate every time you show up, follow us on Instagram. If you're not already doing that, like and share and review us on apple podcast and enjoy, I don't know. I have no idea what to say. I forgot what my, I closed out my sign off. So I don't know what I'm supposed to say right now, but I am gonna say this.
Julia: Thanks for tuning in y'all until next time.
Looking for more?