Depp vs. Heard
Show Notes:
Netflix released a 3-part doc series about the trial on August 16, 2023, and Natalie Katona and Julia Washington revisit the trial through this docu-series.
As a content warning to all, the topic of domestic violence and abuse does come up.
Join us on Patreon for the full episode
Transcript:
Julia: Okay, are you ready to
Natalie: start? I am
Julia: ready to start. This topic is so depressing. This
Natalie: topic is so depressing. Thank you so much for choosing it. Well, I figured
Julia: it was important that we revisit it because we talked about it last year. It's been a year and I actually really struggled with finding like the aftermath, like the legal aftermath.
Julia: So I don't know if we're going to see the legal aftermath in case law immediately.
Julia: Hey friends, this is Pop Culture Makes Me Jealous, where we analyze pop culture through the lens of race or gender, and sometimes both. I'm your host, Julia Washington, and on today's show, we are revisiting the Depp v. Heard conversation that was dropped in our Patreon on June 30th, 2022. Netflix released a three part doc series about the trial on August 16th, 2023.
Julia: So, Natalie Katona and I revisit the trial with the docuseries as our topic source. We originally had a conversation about the trial and recorded an episode that released on June 30, 2022 to Patreon. As a content warning to all listeners, while the initial case is a defamation case, the nature of the relationship between Depp and Heard was violent and volatile, and Natalie and I do discuss domestic violence, so I just want you all to be aware.
Julia: Okay, and now here we go to the show.
Julia: Okay, so just so everyone, so everyone knows we, Natalie and I talked about the Dep Herd trial in, I think it was April of last year when it happened. Netflix has released a three part docuseries. Lots of headlines call it explosive, which I kind of feel like, can we pick a new adjective because when I hear explosive, I don't think.
Julia: Content that basically boils it down into obviously three parts. You have Johnny side, you have Amber side, and then you have how social media plays into it. And so we're revisiting that chat because we talked about it last year. There's, it, it was the most bonkers. Case to watch a lot of people compared it to OJ Simpson's trial with the caveat of the differences is OJ didn't have social media.
Julia: We didn't have social media in
Natalie: 1995 Thank God also because think okay So growing up I can think of very monumental court cases that my family had on the TV 24 hours a day And Oprah was talking about every day or Larry King was talking about every day and it's OJ mm hmm Scott Peterson. Uh huh JonBenet Ramsey.
Natalie: Yep. Another Peterson case that wasn't Jon Peterson, but there was like another Peterson guy that probably also murdered a lady. And, and it was already so like integrated into our zeitgeist, but we had to like Basically sit down as a family and be like, okay, I guess it's time to like turn on Larry Kane.
Natalie: So you still have like a wall between you and it, but yeah, even a year ago when I was trying really hard to not intake anything about the trial, because I was like, I just feel like we don't have the full story. I feel really conflicted about standing with Amber, but I also feel really conflicted about standing with Johnny.
Natalie: And then it's like, I just, I wasn't in a place to think about it and actually reflect in real time. And then you made me watch the docu series and now I'm re mad. I'm sorry
Julia: I made you, but also I'm not because if there's anybody I'm going to have this conversation with it's going to be you, like anyone else that I have this conversation with might still be steeped in some level of misogyny that's not going to like be a constructive conversation because one of the things That I think is overall understood is that the social media influence of this case was massive.
Julia: I mean, it was, like you said, it was so hard to avoid anybody's content about the Depp Heard case. And When we first had the conversation, I re listened to it, um, earlier this week to refresh myself on what I said. And I was, I was so mad that the jury wasn't sequestered. And there was this, well, you are ordered to not watch TV, to not get on the internet, to not do this.
Julia: But they also still went home. They all still had family members. They all still had their cell phones. So when Herd's side was like, you expect us to believe that they didn't see anything? You expect us to believe that they honored that? You, you're trusting the honor system here? When You and I have both said multiple times we had to actively avoid it and we weren't even on the
Natalie: jury right and it pissed me off so much when Johnny smarmy little girl lawyer was like, I just think that people really have, um, A high level of respect for the court system and jury duty.
Natalie: I was like, oh yeah, if that's one thing I know about everyone, I have every duty. Yeah, so I'm pretty sure that they didn't do doom scroll. At all, or Google Johnny Depp or watch Pirates of the Caribbean or anything.
Julia: What I really appreciate about this documentary is how they did do a side by side of here's Amber's face and here's Johnny's face and their faces aren't different.
Julia: He's also smirking. He's also laughing. He's also going boom, slam dunk for my team, but he's not getting ripped for it. She is.
Natalie: And I think you, cause
Julia: look at her
Natalie: smirky face, you know, that will like one of the things that has made me bitter during my summertime sadness as summer draws to a close is this whole idea of no matter what's going on in your marginalized lifestyle, whether you're a woman or a person of color or a member of the queer community, it is always up to you To overcome whatever bullshit society is throwing your way.
Natalie: So like with sister wives, it's like, well, why wasn't that woman strong enough to just stand up to Cody? She would have had the backing of the sister wives. And it's like, well, because her religion tells her not to. Right. Following her religious doctrine, which we're supposed to be allowed to do in this country.
Natalie: And then it's. It's why aren't women leaning in more if they want to be taken seriously as CEOs
Julia: leaning in like why aren't you
Natalie: concept? Why aren't you raising your hand more? Why aren't you making yourself heard because There are three men in the room who never have to just fight to be heard. And the harder I'm fighting, the more that they're going to tell me that I'm shrill and taking a lot of things personally.
Natalie: Yeah. Like your,
Julia: to your point in, um, a cookie chat that we're in, it's, it's the responsibility is always put back on us rather than like challenging the system.
Natalie: So one of the things that's been batting around in my mind, and it was actually when my, I think my guests for. The episode that dropped today as we're recording this about family court and leaving your abusive partner is she's like You kind of know as a victim that the moment that you fight back, it's over for you, and I find that so ridiculous because we have an entire cable channel dedicated to the snapped TV show, and we have an entire lifetime cable channel dedicated to movies about women who are in every way.
Natalie: abused and going to drastic measures to escape that abuse. But when Amber Heard also screams at Johnny Dub, Oh, sure. Tell them that I hit you just like you hit me. So now you're Mr. Badder too, because she's probably in some sort of like. Emotional, volatile headspace, then they're like, see, you're not a victim because you played into whatever manipulative, crazy bullshit he was throwing at you,
Julia: right?
Julia: Which is why mediators exist, because when your emotions are so present and you're having a hard time regulating, sometimes you need somebody to come in. And we said this last time when we recorded, it's two volatile people in the same room together. So the, like the decision to decide who's the least volatile and the most correct in the hands of the court?
Natalie: Well, and something that I'm also really tired of. Not seen when it comes to these high level domestic abuse cases is like, where is the person who is the expert on the abuse cycle? Because we had a mental health psychologist sit on the stand and be like, well Amber's mentally ill. Mm hmm. And it's like, okay.
Natalie: And then we had another one who goes, well, yeah, she's mentally ill, but it's caused by Her PTSD and then, but we never had anyone sit down to be like, I have a master's PhD in the abuse cycle and only the abuse cycle. And I believe that the behaviors that Amber exhibited happened in this moment in the abuse cycle.
Natalie: Because. We're at the point in our society where we can name every moment of the abuse cycle and kind of see where everyone is, right? And we know that part of that abuse cycle is when they flip the script on you And it's them baiting you into getting into a fight with them It's them baiting you into raising your voice or getting physical or trying to run away so they get to hurt you quicker and faster and It's like our court system is like, well, that's not a thing.
Natalie: We're not looking at a cycle at large. We're looking at Johnny Depp and only Johnny Depp. And it doesn't happen in a vacuum.
Julia: Even after recording this conversation, I really do mourn the aftermath for those affected by domestic violence who watched this play out and have a new layer of fear or concern. It is really hard to learn that the people we know only in a public light can have horrible characteristics. But our parasocial relationships with these celebrities are similar to having a crush.
Julia: We build up who they are to us in our minds, and it is so easy to control that image of who they are because it's contained within our imagination. What's interesting to me is how so many celebrities and people with a large platform curate a reputation. And even with the history of really bad behavior, some people can come out ahead, which really makes no sense when you think about like what we teach children and how children learn about right and wrong.
Julia: It's a very black and white understanding. Our system is not black and white. Our system is designed for those with privilege and power, and we aren't learning how to navigate that. Almost until it's too late.
Julia: If you only heard a snippet of this episode, then I guess that means you haven't joined us on Patreon. Over on Patreon, you get bonus content, episodes like this and essays and other fun things. It's pretty easy to join. There's a few different tiers to choose from, but if you're not ready to commit to the tiers that cost money, we have a free community too.
Julia: You'll still get some great content like my suits essay. Speaking of, if you haven t checked out my Suits essay, now would be a great time to head over to Patreon. com slash Julia Washington. We are back with Season 5 and we are discussing mostly Disney films this season, but if there s something specific about pop culture, Present day that you want to see discussed on the show.
Julia: You can let us know by sending us a dm on instagram At pop culture makes me jealous If you haven't taken the time yet to rate and review the show go ahead and do that and in the review You can leave a comment on what pop culture property or issue you'd like us to take on next Friends, thanks for tuning in y'all until next time.
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