Steven Universe | 19
Show Notes:
Steven Universe first released on July 27th, 2013, and aired on the Cartoon Network. The series ran for 6 seasons including Steven Universe Future. The Steven Universe the Movie aired in September 2019.
Host Julia Washington and guest Joe Gonzalez take a dive into Steven's Universe and Role Player Games (RPG) and how both have created space for individuals who don't always fit the norm.
Joe Gonzalez is the creator/producer of Comic News Insider (CNI), one of the longest-running podcasts in the comic book industry. Running since 2005, CNI has interviewed hundreds of industry professionals in print media, television, and film. Joe is a huge fan of sci-fi, fantasy, comic books, and animation.
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The Show: Pop Culture Makes Me Jealous
The Host: Julia Washington
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Transcript:
Julia: Hey friends, this is pop culture makes me jealous where we discuss pop culture through the lens of race or gender. And sometimes both. I'm your host, Julia Washington. And on today's show. My guest is Joe Gonzalez and we are discussing Steven universe as well as how role player games created space to explore when life doesn't accept you.
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Julia: Steven universe first released on July 27th, 2013, and aired on the cartoon network. This series ran for six seasons, including Steven universe, future the movie aired in September, 2019. But before we dive in, let me introduce you to my guest. Joe Gonzalez is the creator producer of comic news insider.
Julia: One of the longest running podcasts in the comic book industry running since 2005. CNN has interviewed hundreds of industry professionals in print media, television, and film. Joe is a huge fan of sci-fi fantasy comic books and animation. Welcome to the. Show.
Joe: Hey, thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.
Joe: I'm really excited to talk about all this geek geek stuff. that we have lined up
Julia: here. I'm excited too. We actually haven't ever addressed. We haven't talked about role player games on the show before, and we haven't talked about animation before, so you're our first. Oh,
Joe: oh, great. Well, I'm happy to be here to, uh, to, to chat about it.
Joe: Yeah, no pressure. exactly. It's all of my soldiers now. Yeah.
Julia: okay. So for our friends at home, let's kick off with a summary of Steven universe. If you're not familiar with it. And friends. I wanna let you know, I did get this description from the AV club because I found in finding the, when I was researching, all of the descriptions were kind of like, eh, and I felt AV club had the, be, did the best job.
Julia: Nice. This series is set in the fictional beach city where the ageless alien warriors, the crystal gems live in an ancient beach side, temple protecting the world from evil. They project female humanoid forms from magical gemstones that are the core of their being. The crystal gems are Garnet amethyst, Pearl and Steven, a young half human half gem boy who inherited his gemstone from his mother.
Julia: The Gem's former leader, rose quart. Steven tries to figure out his powers. He spends his days with his human father, Greg, his friend, Connie, other people in beach city, or the other gems, whether to help them save the world or just to hang out. He explores the abilities, passed down to him by his mother, which include fusion, the ability of gems to merge their identities and bodies to form a new and more powerful personality.
Julia: So the show was created by Rebecca sugar, who worked as a writer on adventure time before creating Stephen universe in a listical titled the 30 best animated show since the Simpsons. From vanity fair. They had this to say, quote, Stephen universe is the series that countless queer people wish they had growing up.
Julia: Creator, Rebecca sugar, who identifies as a non-binary woman is blazing trails with her casually heroic approach to LGBTQ representation in children's media. The listical goes on to say human or not. The characters on Stephen universe display a range of emotions, anxiety, rage, love resentment pride with a level of thoughtfulness, rarely explored in kids' programming and with its emotional intelligence, nuanced character development and inherent queerness.
Julia: Steven universe has an appeal that transcends age. So Joe, we're gonna just start where we always. Yes. Tell me what it is about this show that you love and
Joe: why. Okay. Well, the lot to unpack, and that was awesome to kind of get, you know, lay the, put the, lay, the land for, for everyone listening to the podcast in a bit about this show.
Joe: So I wanna also begin with noting that we will have spoilers. Yes, of course. Uh, so, uh, we highly recommend you check out Steven univers, if you
Julia: have already. Yes. It's on HBO max, for those who might have HBO. Yes.
Joe: And it should be noted also that Rebecca sugar, as you had said, was a writer on adventure time.
Joe: Mm-hmm . And she also wrote many of the amazing songs that you hear in the early seasons of adventure time. Uh, and she was there for a few seasons before she left, and then she went on to do her own show Steven universe. And, uh, but she did come back, which was kind of cool for the very finale of adventure time and wrote an original piece of music for the last, uh, the last episode.
Joe: Oh,
Julia: I didn't realize that I love adventure time. And when I turned on Steven universe, I was like, oh, this kind of feels not familiar, but there's something about it. That's, you know, if you like adventure time, you're gonna like Stephen universe.
Joe: Absolutely. And yeah. So if you saw the finale in that final episode, there's that song.
Joe: That they sing mm-hmm the end kind of defeat. Uh uh, and that's Rebecca, she wrote that she came back to wrote that final piece for, I love that. I love that. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, so I mean, oh, I, and I mentioned that all because I think the music is one of the things that I really do love about Steven universe, uh, as one aspect of the show.
Joe: But what I think I really love the most about the show is, you know, it has wonderful storytelling, amazing character development, and you get a great plotting, really a long term story arc for this series. And the love that Rebecca had for creating this project. I mean, this was definitely a passion project of hers that she really wanted to get off the ground.
Joe: And it was a, it was thrilling that she got it. Mm-hmm and, you know, Rebecca was able to. I think create something that hadn't really been done before, as some of the articles had mentioned too, in terms of telling LGBTQ stories and mainstream animation, but also in my opinion, you know, it was done in a way that wasn't saying like, Hey, look, this episode has a gay storyline.
Joe: You know, like there's nothing, it wasn't like really, which is great. I mean, that's the way it should be. It shouldn't be like pointing it out. Right. It's just like, Normal thing, which it is in, in a story with a character, with different sort of scenarios. Uh, and I mean, those are the sort of elements that I think I really love about, you know, the program.
Julia: Yeah. I agree. I agree with you on the, the characters can exist just to exist. Like you don't have with a lot of, um, you know, live action. If you will. Television shows that do encompass queer storylines, especially in, when you think about 2013, you're just like, does everybody have to do we only have to talk about the trauma?
Julia: Like, is that all they're allowed? Is that all the story they're allowed is here's how we traumatize the queer community. You're welcome. And it was really refreshing just to kind of have this fun cartoon. My son loved the show. He still loves the show. He came out and saw me watching it some episodes this week.
Julia: And he is like, oh, I think you're really gonna like it. And I, and you're right. The music is amazing. It's so much fun. Um, and it doesn't feel forced. Like none of it feels forced. It just feels like fine holiday fun, gather around the TV. Everyone can enjoy
it.
Joe: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I agree. I mean, it's really, you know, I, I think, uh, Rebecca, I was fortunate enough to interview Rebecca on my podcast, um, a few years back and it was great to have the chance to kind of just talk to her casually about this program and stuff.
Joe: She's mentioned this before, but Steven is based on her brother. Oh yeah. So, uh, the character of Steven and maybe is idiosyncrasies and even maybe some of the art and stuff is, is based on her brother, uh, which is pretty cool. And, uh, yeah. And, you know, look, I mean, I think. There was a lot. Uh, and I think we'll talk about it a bit later as well.
Joe: Mm-hmm, a lot that went into really giving someone an opportunity to tell this story. And in the time, I mean, I think we've even come a very long way in the last five years when we're talking about creating whether it's animated or mainstream programming with LGBTQ characters or subject matter, that was, I don't know, maybe the early cusp of it being okay.
Joe: okay. Yeah, yeah. To have that sort of stuff out there. And I, and I have to say, even though I know that there was a lot of internal struggles sometimes with cartoon network, I have to also just sort of tip my hat to cartoon network for green lighting that program, and really letting her do what she wanted to do.
Joe: I think in most cases
Julia: I had forgotten because it's, it was such a background noise with my son group, cuz he was nine in 2013 and we didn't really like it. Wasn't like I did a whole lot of like, well you can't watch this unless it was like legitimately mature content, right? Like it's TBM, we're not watching that kind of stuff.
Julia: Um, so I had forgotten that Steven was like half gem, half human. Yes. And so wa rewatching the pilot episode, I was like, All right. Can we claim him as team mix? Because he's got a duality here that adds to the show in such a way that I feel like even if you're not, um, you don't identify with being a part of the queer community.
Julia: If you're a mixed person, you kind of watch his journey there too. And you can really see a lot of the similar struggles in that you have two sides that are a part of you, but how do you navigate? Especially because he doesn't have his mom to help him navigate what having the gem means and what that looks like and just, you know, the powerfulness of it, but his dad's there.
Julia: So his dad can kind of be a guiding voice in some ways. And then he has the other. Cast of characters to sort of help, but there's still that small, tiny connection. That's not fully come to fruition because he doesn't have his mom. And I just, I forgot about that. And I was just like, okay, don't cry at this cartoon.
Julia: It's fine.
Joe: yeah. Well, you know, one of the things that I think is another aspect of the show that I really like too, and what you just brought up, the idea that, and this goes back to that idea that it's not being hammered over your head, but really from the get go in the show, they just sort of matter of factly, go into the concept that we have, Steven who lives with three women mm-hmm and his dad is still around, but he doesn't seem to have custody of Steven.
Joe: Yeah. Or like he still interacts with him and has moments with him throughout the whole series. But he's not the immediate caregiver. Mm-hmm . And so, you know, Right away. We are given a quote, a different family dynamic. Yeah. And, but yet it's a very supportive family dynamic. Yeah. You know, regardless of the situation and the story, you, it unfolds a little bit about why he's living in that dynamic.
Joe: But again, it's just a, I, I think that's important too. Whether or not you identify in the queer community or not, you are automatically just seeing, okay, well, this is just a different family structure. Mm-hmm and that's okay too, you know, because there's plenty of people that just have like their grandmother who raises them and that's all or whatever.
Joe: Every, there is no as much as. Some of society wants it to be this perfect textbook thing. Mm-hmm , there is no textbook thing. And, and while there may be more families that have a mom and a dad , that's not necessarily doesn't mean that there isn't a wide spectrum of different types of family dynamics that exist out there.
Joe: And I it's, that's why I think it's very important that we see that type of stuff on programs for young people. And, and yeah, so it's great to see that right from the beginning of that story, we're just thrust into that and they don't have to. Explain it in detail at all right away. It unfolds over time.
Julia: Yeah. Which I thought was a really smart move too, because I think when you give too much in the beginning, it kind of takes away from what you can get out of the show. Cuz if you can figure it out, if you figure it out within the first two episodes, why are you gonna keep going?
Joe: right.
Julia: I want to mention that in a 2013 review of Steven universe, the AV club notes that Rebecca sugar is the first woman in the history of the cartoon network to have her name alone on the created byline in 2016, sugar did come out as bisexual and in 2018, she came out as non-binary her journey in understanding her identity coincides with her time working on Steven universe.
Julia: In an article for entertainment, weekly writer, Nick Romano offered this. No episodes brought such a seismic imprint on both viewers and the industry at large than season fives. The question and reunited, which both aired in 2018, it was the moment across the two part story arc that the kids' animation space welcomed its first same sex marriage proposal, and wedding.
Julia: The show has faced a multitude of challenges, not only within the network, but also within international distribution. Ultimately though, if it wasn't for Stephen Yu universe paving the way it would've been another show, but we're just happy at Steven universe. definitely Joe, can you talk a little bit about the impact of having an animated series on a major cable network and it can be.
Julia: It can be personal or it can be an observations from your time in the comic world, but just this level of storytelling, this type of storytelling. I mean, we didn't grow up with this at all. No, not at all. So like the impact that this has had, do you have some insight there?
Joe: Yeah. You know, I think we're seeing more and more so as being comfortable having GT LGBTQ characters, but I really respect that the approach that Rebecca took with this particular show with Steven universe, and I think this is important, you know, for really two primary reasons.
Joe: One, if you are a young person who is watching the show and you identify as a member of the queer community, then you could, you might watch it and say, Hey, that's me. You know? And if you, but even if you don't identify as such. You might be reminded that, oh right. There are all sorts of people in the world, somewhere like me and some aren't and that's totally okay.
Joe: Mm-hmm and, you know, I think she just does, Rebecca just does a really great job of casually bringing that into the story. Um, and another thing that I think that was just really smartly done is. This concept of the gems mm-hmm , you know, themselves. And then in one aspect, you might look at this as races, right?
Joe: Um, as different gems that they identify there as perhaps different races. Um, but adding to this is the concept of fusing gems which, you know, and when they come together, they create a new gym. And so, you know, and I wanna just point out in one of the episodes at the end of season one, although, like you said, in that article that had come up before from, uh, entertainment, weekly talking about the one that was in season five, about the wedding mm-hmm , but the end of season one, um, I mean, this was, I think really impactful for me, but the end of season one, they had the, uh, so it was the final episode of the first season.
Joe: I think it was called jail break. If I'm not mistaken and. What they did in that particular episode is then we are introduced to at the time, we don't know who, but two new characters, Ruby and Sapphire mm-hmm , who we discover are able to fuse together and become one of the main characters that we learn, who it is is Garnet.
Joe: And, you know, The idea of it for me was just this really beautiful illustration of two beings who love each other and come together or fuse in this case to become someone new . And it has, you know, you could look at it in all types of ways, right? Mm-hmm, , there's two that each one has a distinct personality.
Joe: That is part of who Garnet is and they need each other, they, they love each other. Right. Mm-hmm and that brings them together to form Garnet. So it's this, you can kind of interpret in all kinds of ways of union and like the joining together to become one person from two people. So that is really, you know, I think was really great and they do it again.
Joe: I mean, they actually do it multiple times with the show in all different ways, but they do it again with, at one point with Steven himself and a girl and the girl, he. May like, or likes Connie, uh, and they become this new character, um, that is almost androgynous really mm-hmm and has both of their personalities briefly that they're together and that they, they pop back apart too.
Joe: So all of those sort of concepts I just think is really, really, you know, really important in what makes, I think Stephen universe such a critical show for, for the community.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. And, and in an earlier article reference too, they talked about, you know, the nuances of having all of the emotions experienced.
Julia: And I love how, when those, especially when they're experiencing like anger or rage or something, that's viewed as a negative emotion, just watching these characters sort of walk through it in a way that isn't. That feels like you can identify with, and then you can walk away seeing how do I wanna say this?
Julia: It's a really good way to represent to children, how to navigate emotions. Yes. Yeah. Like we see so much of the abusive side of emotions on television and especially in the early years of, you know, TV animation, and they're just so violent. right. to the point where you're just like, how did we all end up?
Julia: Okay. Those of us who did end up. Okay. Um, but especially, so when I pulled that Ew article, I went back and watched those two episodes specifically to make sure I remembered what happened and when the character, oh my gosh, I forget the names. I'm sorry. I should have written 'em down, but you know, she's on her horse and she's going through her journey and she's kind of feeling alone and they've had, you know, they've had this fight or whatever and, and, and Steven's trying to comfort her and she's just.
Julia: Battling with why love her, but this thing, and she's going back and forth all of those emotions. And then she's got her support system and Steven just there helping her yeah. Feel them. Right. And he offers tidbits of wisdom or not. Whenever he, you know, he interjects whenever it's necessary. I just thought, oh my gosh, that was, and it's not complicated the way they showed it.
Julia: Yeah. It was so beautifully done. It was so easily accessible to understand, oh my gosh, I was like, this does to age descend age.
Joe: absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, what I think is also very important, what, what they do with the show is that when we really do get to the very end it, and it takes really the whole series to do this is that Steven throughout the whole series is somebody that is always sort of making things right.
Joe: For everybody or feels like it's his responsibility in a way. To help people through a lot of this stuff, but ultimately it is so much pressure on him that he doesn't know how to process himself. Right. At a certain point mm-hmm like, and that sort of flipped it around and he becomes this sort of monster in a way.
Joe: Right. Um, because of that sort of idea of like, you know, not doing for himself mm-hmm , which I think is another great sort of just mental health. Story and lesson that is put into the, into the grand, you know, the grand scheme of
Julia: things. Absolutely. The other thing that I really, what that struck me to was just how important it is when you are a creative person to have an outlet to explore what's going on in your life.
Julia: Like when I kind of did the timeline of Rebecca's life, um, and then just kind of seeing how Steven universe unfolded throughout the seasons. You're just, you can see that she's working through her emotions and figuring, you know, in, in her identity. And she does it in a way that's. Through the show. That's so beautiful and then makes it, like I said earlier, accessible for other people, whether or not it's, you know, their journey and understanding their own identity, or if it's their journey and understanding just, you know, maybe they're not part of the, you know, maybe they don't identify as queer or they're not questioning, but they're still elements of the show where you can think I' felt similar to.
Julia: Okay, now I can. Okay. So maybe it's normal. Got it. And I just love that she wasn't scared to infuse that into the show, despite all the challenges that she faced on, on the back end.
Joe: Yeah, totally. And look, I mean, I think that what you just said is important to kind of expand upon because I, I, what it really boils down to is with all of this stuff is that it isn't necessarily, it doesn't, it, it shouldn't be, it's a queer story or it's a queer character, right?
Joe: It's just a character mm-hmm . And that these types of struggles or complexities are human problems that we all face, whether you are 10 years old or whether you are, you know, 50 years old, that doesn't matter. We all deal with different types of emotional, uh, things that we have to process and get through whether you are gay or straight or whatever, it doesn't, that's not really relevant.
Joe: Mm-hmm . And I think that's really, what's important about a lot of the programs we're using Steven universe today as our, uh, example of this is that. I think it's a, the best types of stories that are being told are ones that sure. If one of the characters happens to be, uh, you know, Not, not straight, not heterosexual or whatever they are, but equally they have the same types of problems that anyone else has.
Joe: Mm-hmm they live in a certain type of family or they're of a different race, or they know that is at all, doesn't really matter. And when you humanize everything, I think that's, what's, that's, what's so important about all of these programs being, being put out there.
Julia: Yeah. I just, I watched love Victor for the first time, cuz season two is available on Hulu now, but I don't think it's aired yet on free form.
Julia: I think it airs in a couple weeks. Um, so sorry, if you watch that show and I'm getting ready to ruin something. Um, but one of the characters also has, you know, um, has had this very serious drinking problem. And so he's grappling through that and I really appreciate, so even though he's kind of walking through.
Julia: You know, with Victor on Victor, just now sort of being comfortable, being out and figuring out how to do that. This, this friend of his is allowed to be multifaceted because he's not as far, he's not as early in his journey of discovering his self identity as Victor is. So we can see him being a different and a little bit more fleshed out of a character and how the alcoholism has affected him.
Julia: Him not, not necessarily relating to him being gay. It's just, he's got an alcohol problem and he's gotta deal with it. And he's a teenager and everybody parties like that's part of his sub sub, um, storyline. And that I just. It was, it was interesting to watch because you kind of, not that I'm saying, like, we should forget people are gay, but it's nice to see other facets of life when the character is gay.
Julia: Like not everything is rooted in, in be just like with the black community. It's nice. When I see shows where it's like this isn't just rooted in black culture, we can exist. We're not a monolith. yeah. Right, right. We're allowed to have romcoms. Okay.
Joe: well, but I mean that's to the same point, right? Is that we have to just, we have to get to a point where we're just looking at people as people mm-hmm
Joe: Everyone is just. Human beings and, and well, in this case, uh yeah, it's even
Julia: universal case ,
Joe: but at, but ultimately that is, everyone does face the same types of problems. It nothing , you know, nothing else dictates that, you know, rich or poor or black or white or gay or straight, none of those things dictate that it's, these are human problems that we're all dealing with.
Joe: Uh, and, and, and those to me is that is what makes the best kind of stories is that it's focus. It's focusing on the human being mm-hmm being of the queer community or not is a secondary aspect of it. Mm-hmm .
Julia: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Do you have any other thoughts for Steven university wanna add for us?
Julia: Any other
Joe: thoughts for well, look, I mean, I think it's, it's a great, it's one example of a lot of great. Young programming. That's out there when we're talking about animated mm-hmm , uh, you know, stories and, uh, and I think, you know, maybe I believe you, and I talked about this prior to actually going on on the air.
Joe: Is this the importance of being able to tell those stories now mm-hmm or well, and that we wish we had those stories years ago. Yeah. Uh, because as a young person, how else can you have an opportunity to identify with someone like you mm-hmm if it's not, if you don't see anything else in mainstream.
Joe: Right. And that's, what's critical about, and we are seeing more and more of that. I mean, adventure time also had, you know, characters that came out really at the end of the show too. Um, there's been another. Um, I'll just mention a couple other great shows to check out to is from the animation world. Um, KPO and the world of wonder beast was an amazing show on, um, Netflix produced by Dreamworks animation who had a main character.
Joe: And I was actually like, sort of like, wow, they, there was a main character who won a, a male character and one of, and the Kebo, the female lead character thought he had a crush on her. And he just flat out the line was no I'm gay. I was like, wow, that was . That was like surprising that they just, and it was because that's, it should be that casual.
Joe: And he was just so casual about it. Yeah. Yeah. And playing these, this young teen character. Uh, and so that was pretty amazing to see, um, dragon prince was, is another great animat oh, I've heard of dragon prince on Netflix. Um, and again, they introduced like a character that has two mothers. Right. So all of these sort of, and they also have, I, I mean, they did a lot of great things in that show.
Joe: They also have the king, this main, the king of this, uh, land. This region has an adopted son. Who's white. Uh, he, the king is black. Oh, interesting. He has a son who's black, but then he has a biological son who's black, but then he has a adopted son. Who's white. Which is a cool dynamic
Julia: and yeah, cuz usually it's the other way around.
Julia: It's usually a white family with a black kid and then you're just, okay, we know where this is
Joe: going. right. Exactly. And so like that's pretty amazing. And how, how important that father son relationship is? Mm-hmm to the, to the adopted son. Uh, they, you know, they had a character who's uh, a character who's deaf who signs.
Joe: So this is animated and, and they don't, I love that they don't subtitle it. Which I think is great. yeah, I love anyway. So it's the diversity in that show was really amazing. Mm-hmm and another great example of just like, oh yeah, these there, there's not one type of person in the world. Yeah.
Julia: I really actually do like the trend that's coming, where subtitles aren't happening when there's like multiple languages existing in a movie or TV show.
Julia: Um, when my mom and I went and saw west side story and I, I knew it wasn't subtitled and I can't remember if I warned her or not. And she goes, I didn't realize it. Wasn't gonna be subtitled. I love that they did that because it shows. We have people who exist in countries here other and everywhere else. I was thinking about it.
Julia: Like if I ever did finally do three months in Paris or whatever, I don't know French well
Joe: yeah, no,
Julia: totally imagine like, I mean, it's so I love how they're creating that experience of like, you just have to deal, sorry, this is totally not this, this scene's not for you. It's for Spanish speakers. Yeah. It's for ASL
Joe: speakers.
Joe: Like, I mean, even adventure time had a character that was, that talks in, uh, Korean mm-hmm and they never subtitle it. And there's great videos online that you find on YouTube of like the trans, the translation for those scenes, which is amazing
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Julia: The only familiarity I have is like Dungeons and dragons, but I know that's more complicated than that. Right?
Joe: Well, Don and dragons is certainly the one that everybody knows and I, we should distinguish. So there's also, you know, TT RPG, which is table top RPGs. Oh. And then MMO RPG , which is massive multiplayer online role playing games, like world of Warcraft.
Joe: Got it. Okay. So those are examples. So tabletop RBGs are the old school gotcha. Classic, uh, you know, pencil and paper and dice. Yeah. You know, version of stuff. And that's what we're gonna talk a bit about. And of course it, if, and in many ways that is the precursor to what became massive multiplayer online role playing games.
Joe: Mm-hmm , which is which everyone is more familiar with today. But I think RPGs in the grand scheme of things have made a massive resurgence, uh, in the last several years. And I think in no short part because of stranger things. yeah. Um, because, uh, and that's awesome. I mean, it's just great that this, that this is a thing again, mm-hmm uh, because I went through the whole gamut of when it was a geeky thing that no one would do, uh, ironically like the kids in, uh, stranger things are seen that way.
Joe: Cuz that was the tough time period. Yeah. Uh, and now it. Back into a cool
Julia: it's cool. There's all these cool kids. Like somebody keeps cool and that's yeah, there was these group of kids who like, looked quote, cool. They were talking about it. And it's like, what? When I was in high school, roleplay game, guys did not look like you it's good or
Julia: bad. Not that I'm saying it's good or bad. It was just this moment of like, wait, what happened? Where where's the shift now everyone likes it. Yeah. Yeah. It was interesting. But tell us a little bit about what role player games look like, how, what the, you know, all of the things, explain it to our friends at
Joe: home.
Joe: Yeah, absolutely. So if you haven't played any kind of RPG and there's all kinds of different ones, but as we mentioned, D and D. Or dun dragons, or it's probably one of the most popular ones that are out there. There's dozens and dozens and dozens of them. I play other games called, um, one, a couple examples of other games that I play a war hammer is another one.
Joe: And call of Kalu is another one, which is very Lovecraftian, uh, in nature. And so, uh, but mostly we're gonna focus on the old school like stuff, but I like to describe RPGs as mostly a cooperative game that is rooted in creative storytelling. And these games usually have a GM or a game master of some kind that leads the adventure or story.
Joe: And while all the other players that are part of it, they embody a character that they create and, uh, get integrated into this adventure or, or campaign or story that the. Game master is leading. And so in a game like D and D for example, these could be fantasy based characters that you might associate with the middle ages or lower the rings types of things like a ranger or wizard or rogue.
Joe: Um, so that's it, in a nutshell, that's sort of the, the, the basic of what at RPG is, um, and they, it's just, uh, it's greater storytelling at its core.
Julia: Yeah. And then when you were saying that, I was like, oh, I think I might have played some role playing games back in the days when I had a game, like a group of gamers and we'd play, everyone would have to bring some kind of board game and the variety was wide, right?
Julia: Yeah. Like you'd have people who are like, yeah, we play games, but then they'd bring monopoly. And you're just like, no, you can leave. No one here wants to play that. Sorry.
Joe: but, you know, I think one of the best things about, for me personally, what I love the most about RPGs and what I actually don't really like about MMO RPGs is.
Joe: Classic traditional RPGs is a cooperative game. Mm-hmm where everybody's sitting at the table for the most part are working together. Mm-hmm to you, you are fighting the game. Really? Yeah. Right. And it's, you're not, you're not fighting each other. Yeah. There
Julia: was, it's not competitive in that way. Yeah. There was this one that we played.
Julia: Oh gosh, I wish I could remember what it was called now. Um, we were talking six years ago, so digging that far back is hard. Um, and there was, there was a person who like he, or she would sit behind, like would have the board. Yeah. The Louis. And then we all were, like you said, all were different characters.
Julia: Yeah. But it was like a mystery house. So like, you could be a ghost or you could be like a vampire or something like that. And it was a lot of fun. Um, because that was the goal was the, the cooperative, um, experience. And it's interesting because. With video games or just, you know, that the digital element to it.
Julia: I know a lot of parents freak out and that's a huge topic of conversation. Yeah. But I have to say like when my son started playing those games one day, it was Saturday afternoon, I think. And I'm listening to him, he's in fifth grade and the strategy that they're coming up with. So that way they could get to the next round or whatever, I was like, that sounds deeply complicated.
Julia: I don't even know if it's an adult. I could come up with a strategy like that. right. That's great. So I feel like sometimes, you know, they're not given enough credit because you are working your brain in a complex way as you, you, as you say, you're working in, in a cooperative, so you have to, you're learning how to work with other people.
Julia: So the collective is we win .
Joe: Right, right, right, right. Right. And at its, you know, again at its core, it is. not, I win, but like you said, we win, right? Because it is a lot of these games are team based. Mm-hmm it is together. How do we strategically, or what have you work to get to our end goal of living to fight another day, uh, as characters and, and move forward and defeat the monster or whatever it might be.
Joe: Yeah. That you're dealing with. Um, but in a lot of cases, you know, the stories are trying to, and look and in some cases it is, there are moral. Dilemmas that come through it. I mean, depending on how deep you get into these types of games, there's also what they call alignments, right? So you could be considered neutral, good, or lawful evil or whatever, and that plays into your character as to how you might deal with certain things.
Joe: And I've played a lot as a character and I've also played a lot as a, uh, in, in DMD. They sometimes call it the DM, which is the dungeon master, but essentially, so I've run a lot of games and I've, I've been the characters in lots of games. And as someone, when I run games, I, I like to bring that in because sometimes characters might propose doing something.
Joe: And I mm-hmm I sometimes remind them that, I don't know if somebody like it, wouldn't like just kill a random person on the street for no reason. Yeah. Right. Like it's like, you're, you're a good aligned character. So you wouldn't necessarily. Quote, unquote murder side. sure. You know, your character wouldn't do that because that doesn't fit with your alignment.
Joe: So that sort of stuff plays into, into the game.
Julia: Yeah. Which makes me think, like it's a version of theater, right? Cuz you have this very specific role you have to play. And if you deviate from that, it's, you know, the audience is gonna be like, what , what are you doing? Hamilton would never do that.
Joe: yeah, totally.
Joe: And you know, I think some people think of the game as it's not like everybody has to be like really, really strict with doing voices and some people, some people like to do voices yeah. In the game to really embody the character a certain way. Uh, but it's, it is casual, fun. I mean, one of my favorite aspects of this game is just hanging out and getting together with friends, ordering dinner, whatever.
Joe: Yeah. And just sitting around and having a good time and, and really getting immersed and into. Into the fantasy world. Really? Yeah. There's community there. Oh yeah. Uh, yeah, for sure. And I mean, I have played characters and I have been with groups of friends that the same group of friends that have played together for more that I think I'd like to admit, but I mean, I've, I've been, I, I mean, I, I used to have a group before I had moved from where I used to live, that we probably played together as a group, I would say for, well over 10 years, maybe 10 to 12 years.
Joe: Um,
Julia: you know, so, so you're, every time you launch launch the game, if you will, it could be different every time. It's not the same thing every time.
Joe: Yeah. You know, there's different, there's lots of different ways you can kind of approach these games, a game like D and D is one that. in the best case scenario, you want to what they call level up, right?
Joe: Mm-hmm , which is similar to even a video game. Of course, cuz that's where they derive a lot of this from is this idea that you become more powerful or more advanced in certain ways and you get better skills and better weapons and only sort of things as you kind of increase and you go from level 1, 2, 3, et cetera, et cetera.
Joe: Um, and so you could be the same group of adventurers that are out on these campaigns. And so, I mean, in some cases there could be really involved campaigns. I mean we've played campaigns that one game, if you will, one adventure can take prob like over a year of oh wow. Um, because. Of the scope of the story that is unfolding.
Joe: And, you know, you, maybe you can only meet once a month as a group or once mm-hmm , but every, every time you, as most, you know, gamers know a game session together with friends, never less than three hours, always between like three to six hours of just being together. Yeah. Uh, for one day of playing a session of a game, uh, and then that could go on, you know, for sure for months and months and months.
Julia: Wow. I had no idea cuz you know, like the way we see it represented in pop culture, it seems like it. It's like, all right, what's Friday night, let's play this game. And then everyone packs up and goes home, cuz the game's over. Right. You know, at the end and they make it seem like it's not as detailed and com not complicated is not the right word, but I guess complicated could work because you're working through this world of having to, like you say, level up and do all these different things.
Julia: Yeah.
Joe: I mean, in some cases you can also, there are these one shots, which is something that a, a good DM can just run in a, you know, maybe a four hour session and everyone's together. They have characters and maybe they're just, they, you know, look, I mean, there could be people that just haven't ever done it before and they just want to get together.
Joe: Right. And try it. So you, and I've done games like that too, for people that have never, ever, ever played any kind of RPG and I'll run like a one or two session game and really try and get them into it, uh, to just enjoy the escapism of it. Mm-hmm for
Julia: sure. Hey friends. Did you know that I have spoken about representation in media and literature, other than just on the podcast.
Julia: I've been booked to speak at company meetings, panel discussions, voiceovers for commercials and video narratives and to moderate discussion panels, to learn more about how you can book me for an event, just shoot me an email pop culture makes me jealous gmail.com. Use speaking engagement as a subject line.
Julia: Looking forward to working with you in a Listal from gamers decided titled seven reasons why we love RPG games and several others. In fact, like I had. It was like, I'll just pick the seven reasons why, cuz there's so many list of calls about why people love it. They all point to the ability to create and to create and experience worlds that can't, or don't exist in the real world.
Julia: Uh, and so on this show, we talk a lot about representation and what it's like to not see yourself in mainstream media or the versions of your community still not really and truly represented. So I'm curious in your experience, how did RPG fill this gap for you?
Joe: You know, I feel like it, it actually evolved a lot over the years.
Joe: I didn't even really think about it in that way, early on mm-hmm but later, and the more I played and the more I ran games too, you know, I, it dawned on me and, and I've read a lot of articles about this too, but you know, one might not immediately think of RPGs and representation of all kinds. not just LGBTQ, but what I found playing it is that it really creates, uh, it can create a safe space, you know, to explore all sorts of things.
Joe: Mm-hmm, , you know, you're free to be anyone in the game, uh, not even a human . Right. So, and I've played, I mean, I' play young characters, old characters, gay, straight, male, female, other, like I said, other races, and it can be a fun experience to get out of your comfort zone and try something new. It can also help people, um, try to identify as something they're not to try and understand or put themselves in someone else's shoes.
Joe: Mm. Which is nice. And, uh, and I'll share just a really quick, short story about this and, and where it, this could be supportive. So I had won a game, you know, I, I also have run games for young players too. And I ran a game for a group of young players. They were maybe like 11 to 13 and one of the characters, uh, it was, I think it were like four players.
Joe: And one of the, one of the kids, one of the characters just casually said, uh, he mentions there was something about being off on some part of the adventure. And then he, me, he mentions, oh, I was, I was off with my boyfriend and everyone else at the table, all the other kids at the table, just sort of shrugged, like, okay, that's great.
Joe: You know, like there was no. Yeah. And so whether or not he, this young player wanted to, whether it was a. A chance for him to say that. Sure. Whether he identifies as gay or not, wasn't even questioned, but his character was gay at least. I mean, he outed the character. Yeah, yeah. In the game and whether or not that's him, that doesn't necessarily matter.
Joe: But if it is, it, it encourages him to say, oh, okay. It didn't matter. Like everyone was okay with this. Right. So it becomes this sort of safe space. And I think you see this a lot, not just in RPGs, but even in the gaming community too, as much as there's sometimes backlash mm-hmm from parents or whatever that they are spending hours and hours on , uh, you know, lost in these games.
Joe: I think what people forget is that not in all cases, but. There is something to be said about the positive spin on the internet and, and gaming communities and all this sort of stuff is that in some situations there are communities of people who really struggle to be in the quote real world, right. To be SOC.
Joe: So social dynamics is very difficult for them, or maybe they are questioning who they are and they just don't feel comfortable in these types of settings in school, or what have you, or just in the real world or talking to their parents or who knows, right? Yeah. But the gaming community, whether it's sitting down at a table together with like-minded individuals or online gaming suddenly becomes this either online, it could be anonymity mm-hmm and in person you are.
Joe: You might find like-minded people that just, that are totally accepting of everything. And so you can explore this sort of stuff. And that was a really exciting thing to learn more about and dive deeper into in recent years. Yeah. The more I got into, you know, doing much more OBG stuff.
Julia: Yeah. I love the note you said about basically it's, you're helping people are learning empathy in a way, because you have to you're, you're being this other character.
Julia: You have to see it from their perspective. And there's so much fear right now in our world about that, which is just so mind blowing to me because when you are in the margins in some way, shape or form, you're forced into empathy because we have to think about like, we can't always see. Well, we don't always see ourselves, so we have to find other ways to understand and to relate.
Julia: Yeah. Um, and so it's, that's a, that's a, and it's not always safe for us to explore that. Right. In
Joe: that way, everybody's always looking for an op people like anything, right. People wanna find their tribe right. Or find a community that they can relate to and feel a safe, be in a safe space. And, and, and I think in a lot of ways, the online community, in some situations and an RPG type of community can be those safe havens for people to be like, oh wait, I just found my tribe.
Joe: yeah. Uh, and they don't care that I want to this time play, you know, whatever, you know. Yeah, yeah. A male character and I'm female or vice versa or, or what have you. And that's totally fine.
Julia: Yeah. It's interesting when you were again, another thing that popped into my head when you were talking about that.
Julia: So I, a couple weekends ago, I spent the entire Saturday watching heart stopper on Netflix. Yeah. Which
Joe: I've been watching now, myself. Oh my gosh. I love it
Julia: so much. That's so great. Um, and they're coming back for a second and a third season, I think. So it makes you really happy. And then of course the bookstore in our town finally has it.
Julia: Um, so it's like, okay, where was this before the show, but whatever, that's not the point. The point is thank you for having it in the bookstore. But you know, with the character, with one of the characters, I don't know how far are you in.
Joe: I am like five
Julia: episodes. Yeah. Oh, okay. There, you know, the main character is just adorable and he's, you know, confident in who he is and he knows all these things and he just so easily falls in love, which I love that about him.
Joe: Yeah. But throughout my, uh, my sugar level is where I so high. Cuz it's the sweetest
Joe: yeah. I feel like I'm like an overload of, uh, on this show. Yeah. It
Julia: really is. It really is. That's a great, it really is. But I love how like, There's so there's just so much great stuff about that show and oh man, what's the other character's name that they, that is now going to the girls school? Um, oh yes.
Julia: Gosh, there's so much I wanna say, but I don't wanna ruin it for you cuz you're only in episode five
Joe: yeah, well, yeah. I mean I'm right away, you know, they really, they jump right into it for sure.
Julia: Yeah. But one of the characters is sort of stuck in this role of this is who he is. This is what everyone expects of him.
Julia: This is what people say of him. And he is, you know, trying to explore beyond that and it is scary for him. Um, and I just, man, I just listen, when you get to the final episode, the payoff is so good. okay.
Joe: I'm looking forward to it. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that's another good example. I was actually talking to another, uh, a friend of mine too, about this show and how it's another example of just how commonplace now these shows can be and how modern high school or, I mean, being in high school in today's in 2022 mm-hmm is so vastly different that it has was 10 or 20 years ago or more of what that, what that was like.
Joe: And even the main character is out from like, from the beginning mm-hmm and nobody cares. Really? Yeah. I mean, other than there's obviously gotta be teasing and that I don't think is ever necessarily gonna go away. Right. They'll tease you about something. If it's not, you know, we like, right. Not something else.
Joe: That's just high school and middle school and all that stuff. But in the grand scheme of things, everyone's like, Why, you know, you, you don't do that. You don't tease or bully about that thing. And, you know, and, and, and that's great. I mean, it's just great that that's available now that we're just seeing a lot more of that type of programming out there.
Joe: Um, but it is, regardless of course it is still scary because what you add to that, or coupled with that is the, is family dynamics, right? In some cases there's gonna be families who just won't accept it. Yeah. Or it becomes a real, really, really difficult situation. Um, and that goes back to all of this.
Joe: Right. Which is that, what, where are the communities then? Can you find safe spaces to be who you
Julia: are? Yeah. And, you know, that's kind of one of the reasons why I loved the insurgents of the internet. I know there's a lot of terrible things that happen on the internet, but the community I grew up in it, it's not, it's like.
Julia: The the, the official demographic census, depending on what year you're looking at is like 48% white, 48% Hispanic. Yeah. And then everyone else falls into that. What's left over and it's so diverse in that what's left over, but the black community is still really, really small. And so, and then like the mixed community is still really, really small.
Julia: So, you know, here comes Instagram and it's opening up this world of like, oh, look, there's other like, oh, the univers, the universal things that happen. Like I thought they were experiences where it's just like, I think this only happened cuz I live in a, in a red county, like that's this is, and then when I see other people across the country, even reading Trevor, Trevor Noah's book him growing up in south America or south America.
Julia: South Africa, very different countries. Just some, yeah, just some of the things that he talked about, his experience being mixed, I was like, okay, this is universal. I thought I was like alone in my tiny little county. That's read sometimes purple and, and I found all of the people who lean a little left. So it's like, I've got my little safety net but also there's some really scary shit that happens here.
Julia: Um, and then, you know, here, I find all these people online who have similar stories and similar experiences and it's, and, and even though some of them are kind of traumatic, there's still some comfort in knowing like, okay, it wasn't just me. Like, that's just what people think. So now we know how to attack it and change it or try to change it.
Joe: Yeah. And I, I mean, it really, you know, solidifies the importance of this, of storytelling. You know, I mean, in a lot of ways, this all, all roots into just art mm-hmm . So whether we're talking about television or film or literature or music, or what have you, the fact that now all of these artists and creators are feeling comfortable, exploring different topics than what has just been the norm for.
Joe: I mean, I can only speak of Western society right? Sure. Or American Western society for the most part in the last forever years. yeah. Right. Uh, maybe, you know, or prior to maybe 20 or 30 years ago, there's just been, I think a massive shift in what is okay to have in mass media and, and you're right. I mean, when you look at the, the landscape of the country, you know, there's still there.
Joe: There's still a long road to go, but I. , but it is incredible that we're able to kind of get just more and more of this and the internet look. I mean, I, I guess for me, I try and look at everything with a lens of perspective, right? Mm-hmm nothing is perfect. Right. The Internet's not perfect and it never will be, there's terrible things, but there's also amazing things mm-hmm right.
Joe: And the, but that is, that's not, I don't think that's necessarily , uh, the internet. I just think that's life, right? Yeah. No matter you can go to another country and there's good and bad things. You can mm-hmm , you know, whatever, walk down your street. There's good and bad things. Yeah. There is good and bad in everything that's out there.
Joe: And that's just, that's just the way life is mm-hmm . But having the pluses that. Is able to kind of express it, express these sort of things in a way now that is the more and more and more and more we can make this mainstream mm-hmm and these types of stories out there, the more it's gonna help those individuals of any age that are gonna be somewhere in the world, thinking that they are alone.
Joe: Because if you're in many cases, a young person is tends to sometimes think that this is it mm-hmm , you will never change if you're in high school and, and you're in a really miserable type of setting. It's hard to imagine that there's anything else than that. Yeah. Um, or you don't ever imagine you could leave.
Joe: That space or this is just what life is. And we're here to tell you it's not what life is. no, it's not. It's just a tiny little blip on the map time period. Yeah. Um, although it does feel can feel overwhelming and mm-hmm, isolating.
Julia: Yeah. And I think back to your point about, um, creating art, when I learned of the timeline of, um, Rebecca's, you know, Self discoveries and seeing that in relationship to Steven's universe, Steven universe, I think it made those seasons that existed during her, you know, self exploration, even more powerful and beautiful to me because it was like, you are not you're, you're taking your art, you're taking what you're learning about yourself and pouring it into your art.
Julia: So that way it's not just it's so others can experience it too. And then that creates back to the empathy portion. Like either you see it and you think, oh, I relate to it or you see it and you try to understand it. And I just, and that's what this is why artists are so important. yes, yes, yes, yes. Please support artists.
Julia: we need them. They challenge us. Um, yes. Well RPG, isn't something I've dabbled in. Well, actually, now that I we've have this conversation, I'm like, no I've told it maybe. And I just didn't think of, I just didn't cuz you know, in my mind I'm like it's dun in jargons and that's the only one, but there's is it called?
Julia: There's so much more out there. There's yeah. And now it's gonna kill me that I can't remember what that game was called, cuz it was actually a lot of fun. I was the worst team player because I have ADHD. So if the scene is taking too long, I'm not paying attention. I'm sorry. Anyway, I do. I can appreciate what it does in the grand scheme of, you know, being able to sort of experience things that are a little bit different.
Julia: Um, On this show in episode one, season three, Amy Albertson was here and we briefly talked about, well, we talked about freaks and geeks in that episode. And there's that scene at the end, where Daniel at the very, the, um, season or the series finale, which we weren't expecting Daniel Desario, he joins the geeks and they play Dungeons and dragons.
Julia: So much fun doing it. and he's like, so we're gonna play again next week guys. And it's so unexpected because he spends all season being this, you know, freak guy. Who's like clearly, you know, well, I think he's clearly high the whole season but like, it's, it's a nice unexpected thing because it kind of, it shows, it doesn't matter if you're a freak, you can still love playing this game.
Julia: You can still love things that are outside of what you're supposed to be.
Joe: Yeah. And, you know, can I just, I just wanna mention, because you bring up another good point too, which is that it, it just makes me think about what it really root, what it really all comes down to, or it really boils down to is experience.
Joe: Right. And so the challenging thing I think that we face a lot is just people is either one trying to. Put yourself in someone else's shoes, it's, it can be a very hard thing for people to do. And this all goes back to the empathy part. Right. You have to do that or be that to be able to have some context and understanding and perspective on it.
Joe: And the other part is just like life experiences, right? Yeah. So if you, I just think it's so important that we experience as much as we can while we're on this, you know, rock and space for as long as we're here for, uh, some people say we're only around this ride once other people think we might take the ride multiple textbook.
Joe: Yeah. But, uh, but at the core, it's really about trying to have as many experiences as you can, at least that's my perspective on it. Yeah. Because it just helps you understand that there's a bigger world out there. There's, it's, there's not one type of way to live a life mm-hmm and. Having a, and even if it's the tiniest tiniest thing, which is that, oh, I never played D and D and I'm gonna try and do it.
Joe: Uh, and look, you could do it and say, oh, you know what, that wasn't for me. But that in and of itself is an experience, right? It's like, I, or go to see an opera or go to whatever, like just do these kinds of things to be like, now what I gained from that is that I won't, I, I didn't enjoy it and I won't do it.
Joe: Okay. But, or I loved it and I never thought I would, and I wanna do it again. Right? Yeah. That is so critical of us. Being able to, you know, know our neighbor and, and have some empathy and understand things in a different way because we experience it or we can get in their shoes or spend an afternoon chatting with someone else.
Joe: That's very, very, very different than you. To just talk it out.
Julia: yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. When my son was little, it was like, okay, where can we go? Where, what can we do? What's within driving range, cuz you need to understand that this is not how everybody lives. right. This little tell this little tiny thing.
Julia: Yeah. This is kind of a weird thing. I don't know if I want you to stay here forever. So let's go, let's travel let's and travel, you know, can be cost prohibitive, but there are ways to do it. Right. Um, and so, you know, we just kind of did whatever we could to get out and, and, and so he could see like, cuz I was seeing too all too often, what I was seeing, at least from my generation, the kids who didn't fit here fled and never came back mm-hmm because it was such a cruel community for them.
Julia: Yeah. And I didn't want him to feel like he couldn't come home to see me if I should stay here. And I also wanted him to understand, like you don't have to, and then there was a fraction of who didn't fit here and stayed and they're miserable. Yeah. And it's really hard to watch. And I didn't want either, I didn't want that for him.
Julia: Yeah.
Joe: Yeah. Look, I mean, if you, at the very least, like you said, it is cost prohibitive sometimes to get to go far. But if you, if you live in the country, you should really make an effort to go into whatever big city is near by. And if you live in a big city, you should really make an effort to go into the country.
Joe: like, these are the types of things that, however you do it, it's not like you have to go travel to other countries in the world if you can't afford to do that. But if you can just make the effort to kind of see something that is really different. I think one of the best things I, I lived in Manhattan for in New York for 20 years.
Joe: And one of the most amazing things I saw once was walking on the block was this full on Amish family. Oh wow. Down the street, like. Amish Amish. Like we like, but, and they were just mom, dad, kids. Yeah. And they, we just walk on the street. I almost wanted to just go up to them and be like, you know, what kudos for you for coming in.
Joe: Even if you were just like, this was the most, yeah. This was like a Deni in a sin. Like, even if you just like, didn't like it. Okay. That's but you did it, right? Yeah. Like that was the most important thing. And if one of, and if the kid was like, this is incredible, and I know that this exists now, mm-hmm, like, this is not a bad thing.
Joe: This is actually important to know that there's something else out there.
Julia: Yeah, for sure. Oh my gosh, Joe, thank you so much for joining us today. Can you please remind our friends at home listening where they can find you if they wanna keep up with you?
Joe: Yes. Well, uh, you can check out the, my podcast, which, uh, I.
Joe: Is hosted by Jimmy Aquino and it's called comic news insider. And if you're into anything, comic book animation, sci-fi pop culture and anything geek culture, uh, definitely spring over there. There's a new episode, every single Wednesday.
Julia: Nice, excellent pop culture makes me jealous is written, edited and produced by me, Julia Washington.
Julia: And I'm fueled by the incredible support system of women who allow me to run ideas, cry meltdown. When I feel overwhelmed, I also wanna do a big shout out to our Patreon community. Thank you for your continued support. It brings me great joy to bring you quality content and our monthly get togethers.
Julia: Thanks again to Joe for joining us and friends, we will link to his, um, podcast in the show note so you can have easy access to it. And I just wanna say thanks for tuning in y'all until next time.
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