Rebroadcast - Falcon & The Winter Soldier | 23
Show Notes:
A revisit to a season 1 host favorite. Host Julia Washington discusses the Disney+ original Falcon and the Winter Solider with her guest, resident PCMMJ Marvel Guru Shy.
Transcript:
Julia: Hey friends, it's Julia. Your host for Pop Culture Makes Me Jealous and on today's show, Shy is back and we're talking the Falcon and the winter. Soldier.
The Falcon and the Winter Soldier is the second Disney plus original series to feature characters from the Marvel cinematic universe's continuation of the Avengers storyline. After End Game, the world is grappling with how to deal with the reappearance of millions of people after five years of unknown. In the Falcon and the Winter Soldier, we see Sam Wilson and Bucky Barnes trying to reconfigure their lives in the aftermath.
The reason why I think I love Bucky and Steve Rogers so much is because they are humans out of place. Having grown up in an era that no longer exists missing out on the evolution of the world, and then having to readjust not only to survive, but to save the world from evil. It's not unlike being biracial bicultural in the sense that your entire world is normal until you go to school and experience something else, which can be a shock to the core.
No one quote gets you. No one else has shared experiences. You're constantly pivoting and trying to understand how you fit. For Steve, he was frozen on ice and for Bucky, he was trapped by Hydra. Neither fully experienced life as they should have post-World war two, their duality is more than palpable.
It's a main part of their story arcs. Similarly Sam's life is also one of unique experiences. Having worked with the Avengers, the home, he comes back to sees him as the hero he is, but that doesn't help sustain the family business. Facing uncertainty, Sam clashes with his sister in many ways. Bucky and Steve both makes similar statements when attempting to date, which isn't a huge plot line in an, any of their appearances.
But it's there as a reminder that even though they look young, really they're old and not of this world. The world Bucky and Steve left was normal for them. Steve Rogers is obviously not in this particular installment, Marvel is creating a world where humans can have full range relationships that include intimacies that are platonic.
We commonly relate intimacy with sexual situations. That's just one definition. Intimacy can also be a close friendship or familiarity. The Marvel universe has tapped into this so well that the internet consistently creates theories. We should always be challenging this idea that men and women or women and women or men and men can can't possibly have platonic, platonic intimate relationships with the other, with each other.
Marvel shows us that this just simply is not true. And now here we go to the show. Shy. Welcome back. This is like your third appearance.
Shy: Yes.
Julia: So clearly we clearly, I love having you on the show and clearly we have a lot of talk of my Cod and clearly we have a lot to talk about, but yes.
Shy: Thank you so much for having me again.
I love being here. Okay.
Julia: Let's dive in. So when we talk to one division, you know, we digressed into Falcon, winter soldier because I had started airing at the time of our recording. And I had basically was like, Anthony Mackie, what did you do? You're supposed to be captain America. I'm so disappointed, not fully realizing that that was going to be like the entire crux of the show.
Like his battle of, you know, black men in America. Who's a superhero. Good job. Good job, Disney. You did a good job here.
Shy: They did. They weren't afraid of, uh, of dealing with that, which I found commendable in today's political climate.
Julia: Yes. And so. In episode one, they're kind of in the new world right there.
It's post everybody coming back. Sam's like, fuck this shit I'm out. And going to the south. Bucky's hot with his staring and brooding.
Shy: I mean, Sebastian Stan is a beautiful, beautiful man. It's not okay.
Julia: Not okay. He, no one should be that attractive. It's just not okay. But also thank you for your Instagram, Sebastian, Stan, first, I want to start with captain America's role in the Marvel universe, right?
Like he's got this position. He's the first Avenger, essentially. Right. And then that transition at the end of end game, or he's like, you know, if every, if the listeners will remember recall, if they've seen end game, when Steve Rogers asks Sam, how does it feel? Cause he's holding the shield and Anthony Mackie says it feels like somebody else's.
And then now having seen the entire season of winter soldier felt that's a great setup in end game for this series. So now Steve Rogers is gone and here we have Sam, let's talk about Sam. I didn't realize he had a sister. Is that terrible?
Shy: They never mentioned her before. I think in the show in the movies, maybe they might have like in winter soldier, but I don't remember.
Julia: Thank you. I appreciate you for that because I was like, did I, did I miss something?
Shy: No, they didn't really delve into his background very much at all, other than the fact that he was in the military and that he was a flyer.
Julia: Yeah. So vague because you know, that's the deal, but I do really appreciate, like, they were sort of he and Bucky Sam Wilson and Bucky, James Buchanan barns were sort of side characters.
They, we didn't get the same sort of depth that we got with. The more main Avengers. So I appreciate this series being able, having the opportunity to sort of explore them a little bit more. So one of the things that we know bothered me is, you know, Steve relinquishing the shield to the government.
Shy: Sam did not, not Steve
Julia: you're right, Sam.
So one of the things that we know bothered me was Sam relinquishing the shield to the government.
Shy: Yeah. I kind of, I kind of had a feeling where they were going to be going with it, but I didn't think they were going to go as far as they did with that. So I wasn't surprised about it. I was disappointed and I was like, no, you're supposed to be like, but the way they did it, ultimately I'm really happy
with.
Julia: Yeah. So let's talk about Sam first and his struggle first. And then we can talk about Bucky. Cause I got a lot of, I got a lot of emotions about Bucky and they're not all just sexual, mostly sexual. So I recognize and understand that I am a light black woman. I understand that I'm learning how to cope with that, I guess is how I can put that.
But watching Sam go through this struggle coming home to the south has to start with, so I couldn't. Quite gather what their family business was. Was it like shrimping?
Shy: It seemed like it was shrimping or like crawfish trawling, something like that. Maybe it was one of those two, but it was definitely like that sort of situation
Julia: sort of Louisiana shit, sorry for if that's offensive to anybody who's in Louisiana listing.
So he comes home and he's got to figure out his place in life. And, you know, I thought that was a really interesting parallel because the concept of like black Americans, not really having a place to fit already anyway. So Sam has this very unique experience of being part of the Avengers team. He's not as super soldier because he's not been tested on in that way.
But then also, you know, he's got this true intersections, right? He had bins, he's a black man in America. His family business is basically falling apart like multiple peoples are. And his sister's trying to keep everything. Going with his inconsistent help. And, and I just, I guess I just wanted to talk about that.
Like how, like,
Shy: I mean, you have a better, I mean, I'm, I know I'm a brown person in America, but you, I can't, I can't speak to the black experience in America. So I feel like you are really the better person to talk about that.
Julia: Yeah. I guess I'm just
curious how that, how other people re translated that story took that story in that's I guess what I'm curious about, like, how did you respond to that storyline of like him coming back and all of these things happening in his life?
I don't know if that's, I don't know if that's a well asked question shy.
Shy: No, doesn't I get what you're trying to ask. I just don't know if I can convey it properly. I mean, I feel like first of all, I feel like the people that are watching the show and feeling for Sam are not the people that should be watching the show and learning about the black experience in America.
First of all. Yeah. Um, and I feel like they did a good job of, of like showing how he's feeling. About the shield about the mantle of captain America, about being a black man in America, especially during the scene when they get pulled over by the police.
Julia: Oh my gosh. That scene, that scene. I mean,
because throughout the entire season he ha or C series, there's that issue people like they go to the bank to try and get a small business loan and the guy's like fan girling, oh, your Falcon.
Oh my God, can I get a selfie, all these things. And it's like, oh yeah, you still can't get alone, but can I get a selfie? Yeah. What, like, no, fuck you.
Shy: I thought that scene was really interesting, but I didn't really feel like it had anything to do with him being a black man. It was just. He did his family.
You know what I mean? It was definitely because he was a black man in America.
Julia: And then the whisper of like, oh yeah, sorry, thank you for your service.
Shy: And then pulling straight away and being like, okay, what's the problem here. And straight going to Sam when Becky was right there. And then when Bucky was ultimately arrested, how they treated him, versus the way they came into the situation to treat Sam was like vastly different, like gently handcuffing him.
But maybe it was because they knew at this point that he wasn't an Avenger, but yeah, he was definitely
Julia: essentially murder them with his bare hands if he wanted to. That's steel arm. Yeah. And
Shy: I know in reading interviews, Oh, my gosh, I can't remember his real name. I just call him Sam all the time. Anthony Mackie, Anthony Mackie.
Thank you. Um, but he was very much aware, like, cause they filmed this during the pandemic. So it was like within the past year. So everything was going on with George Flo, Floyd and Breonna Taylor. And um, he, he knew like the weight of what was going on on his shoulders. So I, I feel like they've definitely pulled that off, especially at the end of the show with his monologues and the way they handled the
yeah, the new captain America thing.
Julia: I think for me, what was really also interesting was learning about Isaiah Bradley. Yeah, me too. I mean, we've talked about this before. I haven't read the comic books, so I don't know anything about. I don't know what, you know, in theory what's happening because I don't have the comic book reference and Bucky, so casually being like, oh, we're going to go meet somebody.
And then it sounds like you're telling me there's a black, super soldier in the world that no one's talking about. And just how powerful that moment, those moments that he and Isaiah Bradley had together, just the past meeting the future. And then, excuse me, the past meeting and the present and trying to identify what the future looks like.
And it just broke my heart. Cause like, I just love old people, Sam, this old man, who's like, didn't get to live his life. And he served his country and you know, he was. Prison for 30 years and all these things happened without him. And it just, it just broke my heart.
Shy: Well, yeah. And the fact that knowing that and the exact same thing that happened to him happened to a white man and the white man is treated like a God, basically in America.
And he had to like live his life in quietness and not tell anybody his story until Sam was able to tell it for him. Um, another thing that Sam had to deal with a lot that, um, was so frustrating was being called the black Falcon. Oh, look, it's the black Felton. No, it was just the Falcon. No, why, why, you didn't call him like white winter soldier.
That was really frustrating to hear, and you like wanna like yell at the people, but they are making the point that people need to hear.
Julia: Yes, I agree.
Shy: Subconscious. And then it was even like other black people saying like, oh, there's the black Falcon. He's like, no, man, I'm just a Falcon. Yeah.
Julia: And then at some point.
What did the, he and Sebastian, Stan had an interaction where, you know, they're fighting about that. And then he's like, no, it's I'm white Wolf.
Shy: Oh yeah. He said, oh, they're going to start calling you the white Panther. Oh, that's it. That's what it was. Cause he's like, no, it's the white Wolf. And sounds like what, because you didn't know that they actually didn't call him the white Wolf and walk on that.
Julia: I
loved that the Wakandans showed up
Shy: and me too, I was a really happy, I just love the Dora Milaje, like so
much. Yes.
So, so much of that. And that was a really cool scene for me when they came in and kicked everyone's butt.
Julia: Yeah. And they do it with time. The sound, this is sounds stupid. They do it with like a timeless violence.
If that makes any sense, you know what I mean? So like in black Panther, the women make a comment about like these men and their guns, how petty, how stupid, blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, the, the Wakandans don't have that type of weaponry. So I just, yeah, so I always think it's funny when they like always conquer whoever they're fighting with their bare hands and spirits.
It makes me happy. Yeah. I, okay. So when we meet that, we learn about the flag smash flag Smashers and the first episode, and I kinda love that Sam talks shit about their tie about their name, but we learn that they're trying to get back to the world before everyone reappears. And so I thought Carly was an interesting Carly's the leader of the flag Smashers which by the way, she is half Jamaican and half Irish.
And I just kind of appreciate, you know, mixed girl representation. Thank you. Disney
Shy: Disney loves her too. She was in the star wars movie, the solo. Did you play an invest nest nest nest in the Solo movie? She does a really good job of like subverting your expectations of what you, when you see her in like the actual characters that she plays, like are not what you would expect of somebody that looks like her at all, which is really cool.
Julia: Oh, I love that. That's such a versatile actor and I love that she had such an innocent face, but she literally leading this well quote, radical movement. I felt like she was a really good representation of like current America or the current world. Right? Like there's all of this sort of like feeling of not being heard, not being represented, being mislabeled.
And I think that the flag smasher. Probably the early years. Cause you know, she does get a little bit aggressive towards the end. You know, they start out as with helping refugee camps and doing all these things and trying to get supplies to people. And then she sort of turns by the end of the season and is now just like more of a, by any means necessary tone, but not
like terrorist vibes about her at, by the end
of it.
Yeah. And not everybody on her team is for it. They're like we there's like there's that one scene when the building blows up and the kids like there's people inside and she's like, this is the language they speak. You have to speak their language. Is that the language they speak though?
Shy: But I thought, I thought that was, that was the moment that I stopped.
Feeling like I was trying to like see where she was coming from. And second that she did that. I was like, yeah, no, no, I can't. Yes, your site anymore. I agree with
Julia: you in that, because now you're, you're literally taking innocent lives. Like these people just have jobs. We don't know what their belief system is in, in, in, you know, one of the guys makes a comment about how they're, they're being terrorists, but you know, who, who knows beyond that.
Right. And so it just got hard for me to be like, go team Carly, not like I was Go-Team Carly in the beginning, but you're right. I agree with you. It was just like, now you're just kind of acting violently to act violently is what it felt like. Yeah.
Shy: So I do understand where Carly's coming from and I get that that's an issue.
And I think Sam did a really good job at the end of being like, you need to include these people in your conversation that you're going to have. Then I think you can't just make these unilateral decisions without them. Okay. Let's move. From Sam tobacco. Cause he wants to
Julia: fuck you. So you love them both though.
Do I want them, like, I feel like the Falcon and the winter soldier is Marvel's version of a buddy cop show that we all needed.
Shy: Oh, absolutely. We did. I mean, from, um, civil war, the scene when they were trying to get away from Spider-Man that whole thing, like set off this, like I need to see them more of these two together.
And I think Disney knew what they had on their hands. If they were like gonna buddy them up
Julia: on something and they have great chemistry together, I do feel like the first episode was a little rough in getting into the groove of. The expectations were and just their relationship. But I think actually now that was intentional because they're trying to re re assimilate into a world.
And so segwaying into Bucky, Bucky's always having this hurdle because he's a hundred years old. So not only is he a hundred years old, he also is in a similar situation with Sam because he's got, you know, he supported the vendors, but prior to that, he was Hydra. And then prior to that, he was just a normal kid in 1940 something going to fight in world war two.
So he's got all of these things that make him an outsider and he can't, he there's no one, he can have a shared experience with in terms of life experience as a hundred-year-old man. And Sam's really the only other person that exists still that he can have some sort of shared experience with. But even then, it's not to the extent of like what Steve meant to him and his whole internal conflict, like when he goes to therapy, And he's just so angry about being in therapy.
Yes. Give me all the scenes with him staring and brooding. I thank you for it, but he just has.
I, so I guess where I'm coming from is like, I understand his inability to fit in whatever world he's living in. I feel like when you're a mixed person, that's totally relatable. Cause there's all these little like pockets that, that exists in the world that you're not a part of, but you're kind of a
Shy: burden.
And even as like a minority living in a, in a area where it's predominantly a different ethnicity. Yes. I feel that too.
Julia: Okay. So if the therapist says to him, cause you know, he's talking about the steps that he needs to take. They're reviewing that while you're looking at the actress, he says to her, all right, give me a break.
I'm trying, okay, this isn't, this is new for me. I didn't have a moment to deal with anything. You know, I had a little common Wakanda and other than that, I just went from one fight to another for nine years. And then Dr. Rainer is her name on the show. So now that you've stopped fighting, what do you want?
And I just. Love that she was so direct with him because I feel like now he's spending sort of the rest of the series, trying to figure out what he wants. But what did you think about his date? Oh, the things I care about, let's talk, who cares that buck, he can't figure out how to get into assimilate and that he's trying to make amends to everybody whose family members he murdered.
I want to talk about his dating life. Saddle
Shy: Japanese. I
Julia: Yuri, I loved him. He was so cute, but again, I love old people. So I thought
Shy: his date was interesting. I'm trying to remember harder when
Julia: he makes the comment. Cause there was, I was going to, I specifically set this aside to ask you, cause I know last time we talked about Marvel stuff, you're like, are you on the boards?
I'm like, no, but I need to be. And then. But he makes a comment about like online dating and how it's like weird and like, why are there tigers and all this stuff? So then the internet apparently explodes. And I says, yes. And they're like, that's confirmation that book he's by. Cause why would he see tiger photos, variety interviews.
Some of the people who are involved in the show and the, I think it was the director is basically like, no, that's not confirmation that he was by that just to highlight that he like this world makes no sense to him because he's 106 years old. And I thought that was interesting. And I, and I'm wondering like, because the way that they address it, it doesn't feel like they're negating.
The potential for a bisexual experience. It's just there sort of like saying like, no, that's not his, that's not his story. That is a story, but that's not Bucky's story. So I don't know. Did you see any chatter about that? On,
Shy: I did see the chatter about that, especially about the tiger comment, but I didn't ever, I feel like how do I say this?
I feel like men being, um, emotional with each other or men being tender with each other is seen always as all that was gay. When, you know, I feel like it's such a stupid, stupid thing. I feel like men should be able to have emotions and be, you know, like not manly men with each other all the time, especially because he came from a different era.
Being seen as like a, not, I mean, he's obviously very macho, but he's not like, uh, like he has male friendships and he can open up to people. And I feel like because of that, people are like, oh yeah, he's gay. Which just,
Julia: yeah. Why does a man who is in touch with his feelings and knows how to have an, an, a platonic intimate relationship with another man?
Why do we immediate? Why does culture immediately assume that means that he's gay? And so the, to quote the director directly from the variety article, she says, what we were really more trying to display was his complete lack of technical skills, as well as being part of any kind of community he doesn't fit.
That was, I think more our intention there that try this, I literally copied and pasted in the sentence is hard to read. So that was that. So that was, I think, more our intention there. That that tries to pinpoint any other particular affinity. I think one of the things that Marvel does so well, and we've talked about, this is how they do have that presentation of relationships.
Men and women are allowed to be friends without it being a problem. Men and men are allowed to be friends and full capacity friends. Like you say, um, and same with the women there isn't competition between the women there aren't feeding into those tropes and those stereotypes. And they're showing us in the most universal way, like while there's people who don't love superhero movies, but the demographic that typically loves superhero movies are a little bit rougher.
Sometimes some of them are not, some of them are nerds, whatever, but they have a variety. They have a wide variety. I
Shy: mean, sometimes Marvel doesn't do a great job of having. Women on women, friendships and men, men friendships. But I'm just thinking of like that the girl power moment and end game that people hated on fucking loved it.
I was like, oh, the girls, all the girls are together. And it was like an ode to black widow who had just sacrificed her life to help make this moment possible. And I loved it, but I heard a lot of people hated that moment. They were like, it was pandering. It was like, uh, unnecessary moment. Like, of course it had to be all the girls, but how rude I don't enjoy things.
People just enjoy them. And you and I are
Julia: of the age where we never have that shit. Yes, exactly. Movies. So to see an adulthood is so validating in a way, because I don't know about you, but all the shit I watched on TV, there was like our best friend if they had a sidekick and that was it. They didn't have a group they didn't have.
And then there was always some sort of conflict because you have to have conflict and shows, but there wasn't like. Strength that the women of Marvel have when they're together. I think sex in the city is the first show I saw where there was like a girl group that was in 1998. And even then, I don't know, Carrie socks.
So I think
Shy: bringing that back to
Julia: is
Shy: without
Julia: Samantha out, Samantha I'm so irritated. Come on how she was in mannequin guys, like fucking bring her back. And she was in the first police academy movie don't discredit Samantha. She was also like the
Shy: worst Vulcan ever in star Trek. Movies, love emotion, and you're like, Vulcans are supposed to be emotional anyway, that's my other, my other nerdom.
But yeah, like people kept trying to ship, um, Steve and Bucky and I'm like, can we just be friends? Like, I mean, make your own private, you know, a fan fiction, whatever you want to do. But like, I never got any kind of vibe other than just like, really true bromance between the two of them. Yeah.
Julia: And I'll read that fanfiction, if anybody decides to create that sounds totally
like, I'm just an old lady, apparently that's where I'm at in life, but you're not wrong. I feel like men are allowed to have a fully fleshed out relationship with each other. That's complex and deep and emotion and intimate because intimacy doesn't necessarily like there's multiple definitions of intimacy.
It doesn't always mean it's a sexual relationship. And so I feel like they're the other, but I appreciate that Marvel doesn't shy away from the. What is traditional to create dialogue. It like gives you, is creating dialogue between us. Like I think, and you know what I think that's why I love Bucky and Steve so much is because they're not afraid to be vulnerable.
They're not afraid to be. They're not afraid to totally love and feel committed to that friend. Like Steve's unrelenting loyalty to Bucky sometimes to a detriment, but man, we all want a friend that's like that for us, you know? And I just love it. And then even after the fact, cause I think Bucky says something like if Steve was wrong about you to Sam, after giving up the shield, he said, after they've been.
Arrested throughout the
Shy: gym. So yeah, it was when they were doing their therapy thing, I think.
Julia: And he says, if Steve was wrong about you, then what does that mean? Then he was wrong about me. And he's just so disappointed at himself because you know, Steve is good. He's like old America.
Shy: I mean, how good was old America?
I know the V the image of old America. Steve had a good
Julia: heart. He's a good man. I guess that's what I mean, because segwaying into new car. I know, I was just thinking
Shy: about that. I was like, let's finish talking about Becky first, before we segue, though.
Julia: Yeah. We can come back to Bucky. We can
Shy: always come back to McKee, but also, I just want to say, I am still waiting for my gay and my lesbian and my like more representation as far as to be here.
I was like, that would be pretty cool too.
Julia: That would be cool. I would love that. I just, but I also just like, I'm not the person who is going to be like wildly offended about shit, because I'm just like you do UBU.
Shy: I see that with the young Avengers, because you know, like generation X or whatever they are now, like, I feel like I'm way more open and, uh, in touch with their emotions that will might, we might finally see
Julia: a character like that.
Oh yeah. Gen Z is blown up the water when it comes to race stuff. And so like, I've learned so much language from them about being biracial that I'm like, yes, I felt like that my entire life. And you put it into words you 15 year old. Thank you. You act this old lady be able to verbalize how she's felt her entire entire life got on you.
But the new. The new captain America, John Walker versus Steve Rogers. Like that's a huge to me, that's such a stark contrast because Steve was always about the good, he was not complicated in any way, shape or form. He was very clear in his missions. I mean, he always felt betrayed if there was like a submission that was happening, but he didn't know about like, how dare you.
We're all in. We're all here for good. But it's like the world's complicated. Steve stopped getting mad at Scarlett Johannson about her submission. Anyway, let's talk about
Shy: John Parker. I think definitely going back to the first Avenger movie with captain America, Dr. Erskine made a comment and he said that he picked Steve because Steve was a good man, not a perfect soldier.
He was a good man. And I think John Walker shows you what happens if you pick the perfect soldier rather than the good man to be captain America. Yes.
Julia: Shy that. Exactly.
Shy: Because they can get everything he was supposed to. He did all of the tours. He did exactly what the military told him to do. And the second he had that super soldier, Sarah met him.
He he's,
Julia: yeah, he still failed. And my son and I talked about this Bucky and Steve Rogers and even, and even Sam Wilson, who doesn't have the super soldier serum, but still went through military training and then became Avengers, had a very specific type of training to learn how to harness the power they wield.
If you will. And John, Walker's a fucking free agent, essentially. He takes the serum. Some of the flag Smashers have taken the CRM. The difference between Steve and Bucky having the super serum and the regular people having the super serum is that there's nobody guiding these new kids with it, with the power they have and the strength that they have now.
And you can see it cause they're more reckless in the way that they fight. If that makes sense. Oh, for sure. Oh, that scene when the shield and it has the blood on it, my husband,
Shy: my daughter is five years old. She's watched all the Marvel movies. We've never had an issue with hiding her from anything. Um, and I had to cover her eyes on that scene.
I've never had to cover my eyes or cover her eyes for any scene in a Marvel movie. And I was like, you can't watch this right now. And she was like, fighting me. And I'm like, trust me, you just don't, you can't. This is the scene with the shield covered in blood is like haunting
Julia: and it's so starkly different from the way that they handle any other type of fight scene or.
In the franchise, from what I can recall. So it just was, I got emotional and that poor kid that he does it too, like sure. You're a flex smasher and people probably equate you to being a terrorist, but man, like he didn't
Shy: deserve that. He did. And he had said like earlier in the episode, like, oh, I used to look up to captain America and then he gets killed by captain America with the shield.
Like it just sent it. I already had a feeling that I wasn't going to like the John Walker character. And I was trying to give him the, like the very first scene that you see him. He looks like an idiot. And you're like, this guy is like, Not going to be good. And then the beginning of the second episode, you're like, okay, let me give him a chance.
He's trying. He seems like he's a good soldier, blah, blah, blah. And then I want to, I don't know if it was in the second episode or the third episode, but he like barges into a room and he's like, do you know who I am? And I was like, Steve would never, he would never have said that ever. No, Steve was full of
Julia: humility.
He was selfless.
Shy: He cared about everybody. And even when he introduced himself to other people, he wouldn't say I'm captain America. He's like, I'm Steve Rogers. Do you remember the scene where he met group and groups? Like I am Groot and he's like, I am Rogers.
I like that from that instance on, I was like, nah, this guy is not, not where, where
Julia: Hodel do shirt. That happens in episode three, which is titled PowerBroker, which is where we get a little bit of an inside. And we find, we meet Sharon, Sharon comes back.
Shy: Oh, Aaron, it makes you really wonder, like, was he a really great soldier?
Because he just because the scene where Sam is talking to Carly and he's like getting her to calm down and then, and then he just like barges into the room and ruins everything. And you're like, you're supposed to be this great military mind, but you just, can't a read a room and be like, you just barge in there, like you own the place.
Kind of like America in general, but you know what I mean?
Julia: Like yeah. It's his way or the highway and you know what, Steve never would have done it that way. I know.
Shy: And I really love that he questioned the Dora Milaje is what I'm looking for. Like their ability to rule in that area. What's that word I'm looking for?
Oh, jurisdiction. Jurisdiction. Yes, exactly. Um, but I'm like, what is your jurisdiction dude? Like what, who says you can handle everything that's happening in Prague? Yeah.
Julia: You're not in America right now. Protector of the world. And then when the girls kicked his ass, oh, it was so great. And he's
Shy: like, but they're not even super cylinders now.
They're just really good ass
Julia: kickers. And they exactly, exactly see again. And he says like the dumbest shit throughout the whole show where you're just like, listen, I know we're supposed to hate you, but you're doing a real good job at making me hate you. And so his friendships, so his buddy sidekick is Lamar Hoskins Battlestar.
And when he gets first goes out, when John Walker goes. It has had his high school to do the whole show kit and caboodle to get interviewed by Sarah, who I love from GMA tweeted at her a couple of times, she's liked a couple of mine. Tweets made my day when they're in the locker room. And Lamar's like, and he's like, John, Walker's like freaking out.
And Lamar's like, he says this, listen, this suit comes with expectations, brother. You can't just punch your way out of problems anymore. You know, time to go to work. And I, the first time I saw the show was like, oh, pep-talk the second time I saw the shows. Like you're telling us something in that statement because he, he's not, he's not a thinker.
He's not a critical thinker. He, his friend is telling him he can't fight his way out of shit anymore. Now that he's captain America, like he's
Shy: used to getting orders and following through with those orders, but he's not used to being the one that. Makes the call. And as captain America, he, Steve often was the one who had to make
Julia: the call.
Do we have anything else to say about John Walker? Cause
Shy: um, I don't know. We could talk more about John Walker without talking about the contest or contest counters. Isn't the same thing, Contessa and the con no, they're different. They're different titles. Yeah. Okay. See, like the surprise that was Julia Louis Dreyfus walking on screen.
I was like, what is happening right now? Where are we going with this? Which was very exciting. Um, but I think it was said that she was supposed to be in spoilers in black widow. So her scene and which was supposed to come out already. So her scene in Falcon and winter soldier was supposed to be more of like an Easter egg sort of situation, not the non-mirror character.
So she's, she still has more to come. So.
Julia: Which makes sense then, because at the end, you know, what did they call him? I wrote it down. They
Shy: called him S agent.
Julia: That's a, Hm. And he's an all black. Yeah,
Shy: mostly black, mostly black, which was a very, they did a really good job with the costumes in this. They, they were very faithful to the comic
Julia: books in this.
I'm assuming. Yeah. Cause I haven't read the comics.
Shy: I've perused the comments, but I haven't actually read them myself know one cool thing from the comics that they deviated from was that Carly was supposed to be, Carl was supposed to be like a big man. And then they got this little petite young woman to do it inside, which I thought was really cool.
Julia: Innocent looking
Shy: face. Yeah. So innocent. And then she's like, I love that scene where you first meet her. And she's like very innocent, scared looking. And then all of a sudden she smiles and puts on the mask and you're like, oh shit.
Julia: Yeah, she's the bad guy out of the fucking truck. Like, boom. I thought that, I think that's a good change though, because it does sort of give this perception when you have this, um, innocent faced human, leading a revolution, it gives the perception that she's going to be.
Um, what's the word I'm looking for? Underestimated and they totally do the whole time. They're just underestimating our, I do love the dynamic that she and Sam had because she's like, she's constantly challenging him in his role of being a part of the Avengers and what that means now in modern era. And I appreciate, they kind of have a similar, not plate because it's not, but they have a similar desire to fit somewhere.
And so they, I feel like the entire S uh, serious, they bonded in that way. And w which is, which makes John Walker suck even more because he doesn't, he doesn't understand being displaced. He doesn't understand not fitting in or fitting. Which is why he can't get through to her.
Shy: And, you know, I feel they did a such, they did a real at first.
I was like, I hate this guy, he just guy, but they did such a great job. Like, I feel like a white Russell did a really good job portraying this guy that you aren't supposed to like, like that's that was, and you know, did you know his very first audition for a movie role was as captain America? Really? Yeah.
I read that and I was like, that's nepotism that you're like, Hey look you who my parents are, gave me the role of captain America, but he did eventually make his own name for himself. I
Julia: do. I have to say there were moments where I did feel empathetic towards him. Like after he breaks down, I mean, yes, he murdered somebody.
I get that, but he can't see, he can't see that action. All he can see is I literally did everything you told me to do. And then there's no, like, it's just, it's just cut and dry. There's no, like,
I guess what I related to let me put it this way. I guess what I related to in that, because I'm not a murderer and I hope to never be one, but the emotion of like being let down, he was let down by the system who built him up and that's soul crushing, but also, you know, he was a murderer. So that's also soul crushing.
Shy: Yeah, it does bother me that he, I mean, he, that he got basically away
Julia: with. Yeah. And who knows, who knows what the fuck he's going to do. And now that he's whatever they call
Shy: him, USAA agent. Yeah. They're not sure what exactly is that? Is he going to be like part of the thunderbolts? Is he going to be like something different?
We're not, we're not 100% certain what's going on with that whole situation, but it's exciting to see the cross
Julia: Sharon, I
Shy: feel like out of all the characters that they did on the show that Sharon was the least fleshed out one. Okay. For some people, I feel like it was a huge surprise. At the end, when you discover that she is the power broker all along and to me, I was like, totally.
The power broker, like is Sharon. Oh, okay. Look, it she's turned into a scumbag.
Julia: I don't really meet her in the episode. That's called power broker. Like, I feel like that's very, like if people, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, listeners, if you didn't pick up on that, I can't help you.
Shy: But at the same time, I'm like, okay, they did her, like the America did her dirty after everything happened in, um, winter soldier and civil war.
And I kind of get where she's coming from. She's been on the run for all these years. She had to like find a way to protect herself, but I don't know. Interesting to see what happens with her. Cause obviously, you know, she's being accepted back into the fold of the military. She's back to being agent Carter, which I don't like calling her agent Carter because that should be Peggy.
Peggy. Well, you know,
Julia: in winter soldier, they kept, she introduces herself. I like, I didn't know her name was Sharon until later in the franchise, because in winter soldier, when like Sam Jackson's character is like, basically shot to death and dying and Steve's apartment and like there's all this gunfire and she comes barreling through the house.
She's like, I'm agent 13, I'm here to protect you. And so I that's always what I called her until.
Civil war, probably civil war. Cause I think, um, uh, Scarlet tree, um, Natasha is like, what about Sharon? Your neighbor or whatever, or what? I don't know what it was. Maybe she didn't call it whatever the point is is I didn't know her name was Sharon until later
Shy: we find out who she really is at the funeral for Peggy when she's there.
And she's like my aunt Peggy.
Julia: Is that in civil war when that happens. Yeah. I gotta write this shit down to
Shy: keep tracking. I know there's a lot of movies that you got to keep track of. There's like 25 of them at this point
Julia: I realized I hadn't seen, um, the second. That's all right. Yeah. It's not great.
Shy: I mean, it's more Chris Hemsworth and Tom Hiddleston, so you can't really go wrong with that, but it's probably like the least favorite, which is so funny because the Ragnarok comes back and it's like the best.
Well, one of my favorite movies out of all of the Marvel movies, I think takeaway TV had a lot more to
Julia: do with asking me to say, you know, why I love
Shy: taking a YTD
Julia: oh my God. He's so much fun to follow on social media. Oh God. Yeah. I D
Shy: I don't follow very many celebrities, but I do follow him because he's
Julia: hilarious.
100% worth it every time. And what were your thoughts on
Shy: Sharon? Like, I, I'm excited to see what they're going to do with her now that she has access to all these government codes and secrets and stuff,
Julia: which I think that shit exists in real life anyway. Like, I'm that person who's like, for sure. I'm sure that's already happening.
So did you ever watch, what's it called? Everwood it's on the CW, like not,
Shy: I'm not sure how to
Julia: treat. I think this was like the dad. And like, it was like supposed
Shy: to be Gilmore girls, but for men, right. Wasn't it
Julia: like, has something happened to his wife and he's got this kid who was, I thought he was cute at the time and she's on that show. So that's my first experience with her. And then when she shows up in the Marvel movies, I was like, please don't let her kiss Chris Evans.
Cause I'm going to be really upset. And then she did. So when they brought her back here, I was like, okay, cool. Cause we're getting into depth on Anthony Mackie and Sebastian Stan. And thank you Jesus. For that, um, rule. Yeah,
Shy: we can talk
Julia: about Daniel Brule later on. Yes please. And I just, I just was like, yeah.
Okay. You're here. Yeah. Wait, were you the one I had this conversation with? There's so many roles that exist that I feel like are really well-written but then the delivery of them by the performer. Isn't that.
Shy: I think we have. Okay.
Julia: Maybe we have, I don't know. And I don't remember if I left it in my friend and I had a conversation about that a couple of weeks ago.
And I don't remember if I left it in the episode because there's another show that I watched where I just did not appreciate the way. I just didn't think the character did a good job with the character or the actor did a good job, but the character was like, could have been a brilliant character. And I feel that way about Sharon.
I feel like she, she could be a critical piece of the story, but something's falling flat for me.
Shy: Yeah. I definitely felt like she was like, Part of this story, but I mean, there was so many different things going on at the same time with twin flag Smashers and the relationship with Sam and his sister and Bucky and his guilt and all of the other stuff going on with sit with, uh, agent us agent.
And it was a lot already. So like the fact that there was one part that I didn't feel like they flushed out as well as they could have. I'm like, I'll let pass slide. You're fine. And
Julia: it's, that's Sharon Carter. We don't care.
Shy: And we know that we're going to see her again. So we'll see what happens. I don't know where though, like what, what new things she's going to fit into unless they do a second season of captain America and the winter soldier, but they are doing a movie.
Oh, they are doing a movie. So she might be in
Julia: that she might be in that.
Shy: Let's talk about. Daniel rule. Okay. I'm so happy that they brought back Zemo did you see that clip that Marvel released and blessed Marvel of just him dancing in the club for an hour? Yeah, like it was just like a repeat, like Marvel themselves released it on YouTube, but it's just him like dancing in the club for an entire hour.
Oh, I love it. And you're just like, yes, this is what we needed. Yeah. This is our version of the Snyder
Julia: cut. Yes. But it's actually like,
Shy: oh man, Daniel roll has such, he's such a good actor. Like he brings such gravitas to his roles and he's like, he's just very like. I don't know. He's very charming and capturing you can't look away from him when he's acting.
Julia: Yes. And he's so dedicated to the character's story. If that I get that, like, when we first meet him and he's lost his whole family and it's this whole thing, like, I, first of all, I can't handle parents losing their kids. Like, that's hard for me. I'm sure it's hard for every parent. So I understood his pain and losing his family.
And when he listens to the voicemails from his wife and you just see him, so like defeated, oh, it was, uh, nobody should experience pain that way. And he makes it so real. So then when he takes on this plight of like, first of all, Bucky's like, he's the only one who can help us to feed them. Yeah. I know.
Shy: I was like, yes, bring him back.
I loved how they. That was a good moment
Julia: and then his dedication to destroying Carly. Cause he's just, and he's so matter of fact about it, like Sam's got empathy, he understands where Carly's coming from. He's trying to reason with her and then there's Zima. Who's just like, listen, Sam, she's a bad guy and she's going to just keep getting worse.
So you have to kill her like point blank kind of stuff. And you're just like, I mean, he's not wrong about her probably getting progressively worse, but also like you're very callous. You think she should die?
Shy: He definitely has a very, uh, finite opinion about super soldiers. So it made me happy that he kind of made amends with Bucky and.
As this as much as of a surprise, it was when the van blew up with all of the super soldiers in it, that was hitting the, the prison. You're like, oh man, they're all going to get away with it. Cause the other guy was like one world when people and you're like, oh no, they're going to get away. And then all of a sudden they blew up and you're like, well, no, they're not getting away.
And he planned that way before you went, oh, back to the raft. It
Julia: was a brilliant technique to have his valet. There to be the one that they pan to after, because we get such a brief moment with him in the beginning when he's like Sam, I was a Baron before you blew up by country duh, or you're rich.
Shy: And he's like, I am a Marin.
Yeah.
Julia: You know, that's kind of a big deal. And you know, he's like, oh, it's so good to see you old friend, blah, blah. And that's, and then there's another scene later where he's like, you know, if the food's bad, feed it to the Americans. And that's really the only two times we see this valet or ballot. And then, so when they pan to him again at the end, you're just like, that's not a baller shit.
Shy: And it really was a very Zemo move to do that. Okay.
Julia: So the one world, one people thing, every time somebody said that it made me very unconscious. And so I was trying to like, unpack that myself. It's like, well, you know, in all of the Marvel movies, it's like, hell, they whisper that to each other. So that sorta that bringing that one rolled when people, and then they whisper it to each other, the way that everyone whispered hill hydro to get to each other.
I wonder if that was to try and make them in the same vein, if that makes sense. Cause you know, like in the beginning you kind of feel for them a little bit and then Carly goes rogue and starts killing people and you're just like, I don't feel sad for you anymore.
Shy: And I feel like you're right with that because saying, saying the words one world, when people should be more of like a, oh yeah, that's a good sentiment to have.
And then we, they, the way they said it and like the delivery did definitely have like a highlight.
Julia: Okay. The very last episode. Yeah. There
Shy: was a lot to unpack in that last episode.
Julia: Episode six is when we learn Isaiah Bradley, his real story. But he spent 30 years in prison. He had the love of his life.
Right? I think
Shy: there's in the last episode, they
Julia: know it was episode five, episode five is when he goes and sees him. So he sees Isaiah Bradley and Isaiah basically cautioned him. He's like, you gotta be batshit crazy to be a black man in America and take up those stars and stripes, like the fuck is wrong with you.
Shy: And from his experience, it makes sense for him to say that 100%, I feel like anybody without the emotional maturity that Sam has, would have had a hard time taking on that mantle.
Julia: Absolutely. Because it's scary going out into public eye in that way. And Sam, I think Sam has a good heart the way that Steve has a good heart.
Oh, absolutely. And that's why they were able to bond so well, but I love that when he's at his hometown and his sister says to him, there's a fight out there and there's a fight here and bro, you've taken them both on. So you really gonna let Isaiah Bradley get in your head. It's like spoken
Shy: like a sister.
I know what I was going to say. I was like, sounds like a sister. Talk down to the brother, like
Julia: and then Sam says, what would it
Shy: be like that protective thing? Like, nobody else can make fun of you except for me. Yeah.
Julia: And then Sam responds with what would be the point of all the pain and sacrifice if I wasn't willing to stand up and keep fighting.
And I just, I really loved,
Shy: that's such a captain America thing to say really
Julia: good job, Anthony Mackie. I'm so proud of you.
Shy: I heard rumors from people saying like, oh, I don't know if he can handle like having his own show and stuff. But by the end of that last episode, like he proved that monologue at the end, when he was talking to the senators and like the angelic view of him kind of coming down with Carly's body, like everything in that last scene that he did, what.
Like just made me cry. Yeah.
Julia: It was very captain
Shy: America. It was very captain America was very impactful. It was very like, this is what I'm rooting for. And this is why I watched the show to like, feel this, this, these feelings.
Julia: I love that when they're walking away from that scene and Bucky says, good job cap or, or yeah,
Shy: something like that.
We called him cap and he knows that like, Sam's going into this, knowing that he is, people are going to hate him just for the fact that he's a black man wearing the stars and stripes
Julia: really healthy mentality. When he starting this kind of big high profile job, I had, I think when you are not delusional, And you have a firm grasp on reality, you can do more good than,
Shy: and I'm sure like even before filming, after the end of end game, Anthony Mackie himself like saw plenty of reactions to people, um, knowing that he had this shield, even if he, even if like we hadn't had the show yet, and we knew that he was going to give away the shield at first, like people thinking that he's going to be the next captain America, I'm sure he got an unhealthy amount of vitriol because of that.
So he, he probably brought that feeling in, or hopefully even see all of that. But you know, you, I'm sure you saw some of it, but he probably brought a lot of that into, um, the emotions that he brought in as Sam. I was like, they're going to hate me, but I'm still going to do what I meant to do. And I
Julia: love that because it's showing how selfless he is, regardless of how he's being treated.
He's still going to choose to do the right thing. I feel like
Shy: this show did a good job of answering a lot of questions that we had, especially after our conversation about one division, but what was going on post snap, how people were being relocated, how people were coming back and like what happens to these people?
Once they come back, I felt like they did a good job of showing the struggles that people were having with that. But I do want to delve more into people's experience with that too. Yeah.
Julia: Because I can't imagine. Either side. I can't imagine, like with, we saw with, um, Rambo, she's the one who disappeared and coming back in the world so different.
And with Sarah's experience his sister, you know, she's, she was stuck, not stuck at home. I don't want to say it that way because that's not fair, but she that's essentially what she was. She was the one having to hold down the Fort and figuring out, you know, her husband's gone and she's got these two little kids and she's got to figure stuff out.
And then Sam comes back and he's like, I'm here now. And she's like, fuck you you've been gone. You don't know what I've been through. Like I said, with Bucky and Steve, I like, I get that struggle of not fitting somewhere and just being desperate for connection and a bond with somebody. Like I totally get that, that shared experience situation.
You know, having somebody with shared experience, no two mixed people have the same experience. It's a very singular experience. Even within family dynamics. My experience is very different from myself. And that's true for them. So when Steve comes in to the show into the first Avenger, he is figuring out how to transition into this new world.
I related it to my experience of trying to figure out how to fit. Into the real world, because the world my parents created, isn't really real because they're like, you're perfect. And you're wonderful. And we love you. And this is where you can be who you are out into the real world. And everyone's like, oh yeah.
Now I get that. And that's probably true for a lot of people who are living in the margins
Shy: or like subverting people's expectations when they meet you. And they're like, oh, you're not really the kind of person that I thought you would be meeting. I don't know. I've gotten that a lot in my life. Like, oh, you're not, you're not like all the other Indian people I've ever met.
And I'm like, yeah. Okay. I've never met me
Julia: before. And what does that even mean? Like, am I not fitting the stereotype that you have in your head that suddenly now, like you probably shouldn't have in your head? Yeah. That's exactly it. Which is unfortunate. And I think pop culture has a lot to do with that.
Bonus scenes. Did you, did you wait until the very end of every episode? I
Shy: did. And we only got the two bonus endings, right though. One of John, John
Julia: Walker was a John Walker. Yep. Make it as makeshift fucking shield. I
Shy: know. I was like, are they trying to make like an iron man reference with this? Because that was really frustrating to me to hear.
I didn't, I didn't know if they were or not, but I was like this. He is nothing like captain or like iron man.
Julia: Yeah. That didn't even cross my mind for it to be an iron man reference,
Shy: you know, like working in his garage, like scrapping together words to make a suit.
Julia: I just thought he was now. So in need of mental health support that he was like, how dare they take my shield?
I'll make my own. Maybe it was that too. And then, and then it's a piece of garbage Rosa, and then it gets dented the first time. Like, what did you think was going to happen, John? I know
Shy: it's not vibranium.
Julia: Yeah. I love that scene when they're working on the boat and he's like, why didn't you use the metal arm?
He's like, I'm trying to use the dominant hand. Yeah, I
Shy: forget that. I'm I have it, my left I'm right-handed and that was, that was a hilarious line to me. And I was, I thought that was a really clever thing. It just humanized him a little
Julia: bit more and it, they have such, it just emphasizes how great the relationship is, you know, they can, they're so cute.
I just want them to always have a TV show.
Shy: Well, they're going to get a movie, so that's very
Julia: exciting. That is very exciting. How about when Sam was like stop flirting with my sister? Oh yeah.
Shy: So I was like, I get it girl, get it girl.
Julia: So when all this stuff about him being bikey mad, I was like, I got a bigger connection, a romantic connection between Sarah and Bucky than I did Bucky being by.
And then when Sam says stop flirting with my sister, I was like, okay, so I'm not off the mark. He, they really are having moments. You're just jealous. Probably. I do love that quote in episode six, when he, when Matt Anthony, um, excuse me, Sam is giving a speech and he says, look, you people have just as much power as an insane God or a misguided teenager.
The question you have to ask yourself is how are you going to use it? And I, I appreciated that because to me, it says that he still saw something in Carly that not that she could come back from, but he still saw Carly as human. Whereas the GRC saw her as a
Shy: monster. I mean, he wouldn't even fight her. She was like desperate for him.
For him to fight her. And she was like, fight me. And he was like, I'm not gonna fight you. I don't, this isn't like something that I want to do.
Julia: Yeah. Because the age gap is so significant. It's not a fair fight in my mind. She
Shy: was stronger than he was
Julia: with the super soldier serum. But so there's a point in episode four where Zemo asks Sam, if you could take the serum, would you?
And in that same episode, John asks Lamar the same question and Sam has the answer is like the equivalent of fuck. No, but Lamar's answers. Yeah, 100% I would do it. And I thought that was interesting because Sam has like this back and knowledge of both Steve and Bucky and what the serum did to either of them and the struggles and conflicts that they felt because of the CRM.
But then there's the other side of it where it's glamorized to your superhero, you have the superhero strength and it makes you, um, invincible in a way. And how these guys who don't have the experience or the trauma of being the prototypes are just like 100%. We'd do it. And I thought that was an interesting display displays, not the right word disposition.
Shy: Uh, this.
Julia: Because the comparison between the two, right? Like here's the one who's like, no, this is, they were tested on their lives were terrible because of it sort of terrible because of it like, especially in Bucky situation. And then these guys are like, yeah, fuck it. Let's take it. We're gonna be super soldiers, but I don't know what
Shy: to call that disparity.
Maybe
Julia: dissonance. They're going to take my initial grease away. Why is this so hard? I don't know. Yeah. Like
Shy: three o'clock in the morning. And I'll be like, did you know that, um, Elijah is Isaiah Elijah. I always, oh, Isaiah was saying it was Isaiah, but his grandson's name was Eli Bradley and he. Is going to be the Patriot for young Avengers.
That's that's, that's what the character was in comics. So his grandson is going to definitely be showing up again. I love that. And so we'll, um, the Sam sidekick that was in the military that has his wings is waiting to be yeah, Torres. He's going to be the next Falcon. That was one of the, the throwaway line when he was like, oh, what do you want to do with these wings?
And sounds like, keep them, like, Nathan's like, he's going to be, he's going to be Falcon, which was pretty
Julia: cool. Oh, I love that. Nathan picked up on that. Cause I, well, he,
Shy: I mean, he's read the comics, so, oh,
Julia: got it. Speaking of Isaiah broadly and Eli though, I love that scene in the end. When he's, when Anthony Mackie's like, come with me, let's go, come on, put your jacket
Shy: on.
I was crying so hard during that scene. It was so beautiful.
Julia: Very
Shy: the emotions on his face when he hugged him. And I was just like, oh my God, oh man, no, don't you're going to make me cry. It was, it was beautiful.
Julia: Was so good. And I love that redemption. I don't know what internet chatter exists about it. And I think I'm going to stay away from it because it doesn't matter how old you are.
He got validated in his work for his country. And that's so powerful because so many people go unnoticed in the hard work and the sacrifice and the commitments they make. And Isaiah made the ultimate sacrifice. I cannot imagine not living with the love of your life and being kept from the love of your life.
Like I don't have all of my life. That's why I can't imagine it because I know how I am when I am in a relationship. I'm not like a weird girlfriend. Who's like, you can't have your own life, but I definitely like. When we share our, the moments we share together, like, I don't want anything to get away in the way of that.
So I can't imagine, like, not getting letters, not being a part of birthdays, not celebrating anniversaries, like kids not getting to see your kids be born, your grandkids. You're like, oh my God, that's devastating. I just love that he got redemption in the end and it was beautifully done. Okay. So I actually didn't realize that there was going to be a movie.
So thank you for sharing that. So I'm going to change this last question a little bit. What do we want to see in the movie, or, and do we want to see a season two? Well, I don't
Shy: know if we will need a season two because of the movie, although I did really love the end credits. Um, on the last episode at the end, did you notice that.
Captain America and the winter soldier, he is captain America. Don't forget it. Um, I feel like, uh, we're going to be, I don't, cause I don't think they're going to shy away from it. I think we will see a lot of backlash against having a black captain America. I think I would say that we probably are going to see more from Sharon and I feel like now that Sharon has all this knowledge, but she's lost all her muscle or if she had that, she might, she might get desperate for protection.
Yeah. I don't know. I feel like they might, there might be, they might be building her up to be the bad guy for the movie. So we'll see. We'll see how that goes.
Julia: So correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't know much about the comic series. Like I got the sense that Val, Julia Louis Dreyfus this character, at some point I got like, cause you know, there's this chatter between the PowerBroker and everybody else and how she needs the winter soldier serum and all this stuff.
And she needs her winter soldier or her soldiers, blah blah. So when Val shows up, I had a moment of like are valid and the PowerBroker on the same team or on different teams. I think they're on different
Shy: teams. Okay. Then they're both self-serving I don't really feel like they're not, I think they're on different teams, but thereafter it probably the same thing, which is just accumulating as much power as they can.
Yeah. Protection. Yeah.
Julia: Cause you're not wrong. I mean, she's, Sharon's lost all over. She's basically funding that guy to make this serum for. And then Zima gives no fucks to just kills him, like, boom, you're gone. Problem-solved and now take, get the rest. Like he was so matter of fact, about the whole thing, did you see assembled on Disney plus?
I did. Yes. What did you think?
Shy: I thought so I knew going into that they had been shut down because of the pandemic. Um, but I thought they did a really good job of like seamlessly. Like you couldn't tell where they stopped production and they started at app again, like I felt like he did a really good job of making sure it was like, as seamless as possible.
It was a lot more CGI than I thought that they did a really good job of like blending. Yes. Um, especially the scenes in the first episode with the, when he was growing for the Canada. With, when he's flying through the canyon, shit, that soldier, and then, um, the end with his costume and stuff, I thought that was really cool.
And it's like the magic of movie making or television making, I guess
Julia: I really love how they were very conscious and aware of what they were doing when it comes to the narrative of being a black man in America. And I, and a lot of the stuff that the people they interview said, I was like, okay, cool.
That's the vibe I was getting. That's how I was feeling. So I'm glad to know that the creators like felt that way and then channeled it into the work. Cause sometimes, you know, you talk to somebody who creates art and you're just like, oh, this is what I got. And they're like, that's not what I was trying to do.
Shy: Yeah. And I know that Anthony Mackie seems very much aware of the. The role that he's been placed in now and how he will be perceived. I want it, I want to say, like I read something right after end game, where he was telling his son that he was going to be captain America and his son like started crying.
And I was like that, that's all I'm going to focus on. I'm not going to focus on all the negative people or the people that you know, are like, oh, black man has captain America are, I'm going to look at the people that are looking at him to be like, why this? I mean,
Julia: yeah, Anthony Mackie plays Sam Wilson, so, well, he's calm.
They're all complicated. But he has the same value system that Steve Roger ha Rogers has in the sense of, we have to protect and care for our people. And I think. When you pull away the layers of everything else in the world, that's really what people I in a perfect world, that's what people would focus on.
I'm happy
Shy: that little boys and little girls are going to go up with a black captain America and not think that that's like a weird thing. Like the way my daughter is growing up with watching TV and there's Indian characters on television, or like there's a whole entire show dedicated to like Disney, like Mira.
I didn't grow up, but I didn't. I grew up not having anybody that looked like me on television and my daughter gets to grow up with not that. And that makes me so incredibly happy.
Julia: Yeah. I do love that. Okay. Who do you like better Bucky or Sam?
Shy: Sam as a person. What about you? I don't know. Don't take their looks in the consideration.
Julia: Okay. Sam is the person I should like, but Bucky would be the person that I'd be like, I need this guy to Davy, like now, because he's stairs. I love how they always comment. Cause he always just like, stare like that.
The Bruny Sam's like, you get used to it though. That's the type of guy that I have dated more than I have any other type of guy. It's not good ladies. Don't do that. I
Shy: heard people trying to compare fuckin and winter soldier to one division
Julia: one.
Shy: Well, just because they're both, you know, Marvel shows on Disney plus, and I feel like it's a really unfair comparison.
Like it's very apples to oranges that are fairly different as far as the concept of the show, the execution of the show that what they were trying to prove, like set out to do. Yeah. Which I thought was a weird, like, I try not to. I feel like I got to, like when we talked about one division, I was going through the boards and like got super caught up with all of the rumors and the things that people were trying to think where we're going to happen.
So I try to back off with that with Falcon, winter soldier, because I didn't want other people's ideas in my head as much. And I think it helped, but I feel like now I should go back and reread
Julia: some of the
Shy: stuff, the boards and stuff and see what other people
Julia: were saying. They all had their own lives prior to being sort of adopted by the Avengers.
And it makes sense for them to now, like now that the adventures has ended, where it ended for them to sort of go back to what those lives were, but then also they have the experience of being an adventurer or a part of that team. So now they have to figure out how that plays in. I think that we don't do enough to dive into what makes somebody complicated.
Cause I feel like maybe we feel. Humans feel more, more out of place in like they don't fit, then they do fit how people feel
Shy: versus how they're perceived. Yes.
Julia: Okay. I get that. 'cause, here's Sam, he's this big hero and everyone's happy to see him and, and, and they love him, but then they don't love him.
Like if they don't recognize him, he's a problem. But once they recognize and they're like, oh, you're a hero. And that's gotta be really hard.
Shy: Yeah. Because he's not gonna walk around with like a shirt that says I am the Falcon on it all the time.
Julia: I am the black belt,
Shy: like red wing, just following him everywhere.
He goes, oh, it was so sad when red wing broke. Oh, it was like, oh no, you got to like a cooler, upgraded version of Redwing, I guess in the
Julia: Wakandans we need more Wakanda in our lives. Oh, can we talk
Shy: about, um, his new suit to Falcon? Yeah. Yeah. What did you think of that when you first saw
Julia: it? I hate it. I do.
But I understand it's true to the comic.
Shy: It is true to the comics. So I just, and I get why they did it, but I don't love this part. Yeah. Don't love the glasses. I can tell you exactly why I don't love the glasses, even though it makes sense. Cause he's like flying to have it. Do you watch the boys? It's in my queue.
Okay. So there's a character named a train who has glasses like that. Cause he runs really fast and it reminds me of Adrian and I'm like, every time I see Sam, I'm like, all he can see is a train and I hate it. But the suit in general, the white and the silver with the red and blue and the wings I think is gorgeous.
Gorgeous. I love
Julia: how that looks. So I guess the, that I hate is the neck part. And then every time he turned his head, he looked uncomfortable. Like, or at least I interpret him looking uncomfortable, but I hated, I hate, but I also don't like shit on my. That feels constricting. Okay.
Shy: I can see that I wear a lot of scarves, so maybe I, but like, it just like, but I get, they wanted it to be functional as well as pretty.
So I get why they did it. I'm glad that they did it because you do have to think like, oh, he's flying at these high speeds at this altitude. Like a real man would, you know, have to suffer for that. But they've kind of worked around that, but I thought the suit in general was really
Julia: beautiful. Well, and like you said a little bit ago when he like lands and he's holding Carly and that's just a beautiful scene.
Like I enjoy yes, totally angelic. And then when I got the closeup and saw the next thing, I was like, okay,
Shy: those poor CGI guys had to work a lot on like, cause the gap a lot, whenever you move his neck to like, make it look
Julia: seamless, Oh, Bucky going back to Yori to admit that he was the one who murdered his son.
That was so sad. That was really sad. I was wondering
Shy: where that scene was going when they first showed it. Um,
Julia: cause it's episodes apart, right? Like they showed that early in the season and then he doesn't go back to Yori until the very last episode.
Shy: Yeah. And they show you why URI was important early on too.
Like they'll they showed the scene and then they showed URIs importance and then they showed the apology at the end. And that was heartbreaking. I'm kind of whether they didn't really show it, show it, but it showed him like moving on with his life. Both of them moving on with their life afterwards was really
Julia: important.
I agree again, I can not imagine what it's like to live. It's like my biggest fear is to outlive my kid, especially before he gives me crunchy bread. I need to stop living in a TV show and live in the real world. Well, I really appreciate you coming back and having this conversation with me about, you know, my celebrity crushes.
Shy: Thank
Julia: you. You're welcome. Bye.
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