Mackenzie Scott | 7
Show Notes:
Mackenzie Scott is famously the ex-wife of Jeff Bezos and their divorce made headlines when we all learned that she would be awarded half Bezos's worth.
On this episode host, Julia Washington and guest Tracy Stanger discuss the perceptions of female billionaires, how unpaid labor is seen as invaluable, and how Scott is changing the billionaire game.
Transcript:
Julia: Hey friends, this is pop culture makes me jealous where we talk about pop culture through the lens of race or gender, and sometimes both. Tracy Stinger is back. And today we're going to be talking about Mackenzie Scott.
Julia: If you understand the nuances and intersections of being a Bipo woman, a woman identifying a woman in a male dominated industry, and all the microaggressions that come with the daily existence and how media reinforces a stereotypes, but you still love pop culture, then pop culture makes me jealous. Best Friends Club on Patreon is just for you.
Julia: Join an incredible community of like-minded individuals who meet monthly to discuss a different topic in pop culture, access to bonus content, weekly, lunchtime, hangout sessions, and discounts on merch. To learn more about how to become a part of the best friends club, visit pop culture makes me jealous.com/become a member.
Julia: There's a hyphen in between. Become a Member, Become hyphen a hyphen member. See you. Mackenzie Scott is famously the ex-wife of Jeff Bezos, and their divorce made headlines when we all learned that she would be awarded half Bezos Worth. But before we dive in, let me reintroduce you to my guest, Tracy Stinger was here in season one.
Julia: Episode 21, Death to the Mom, Hustle And Season two, four. I don't know how she does it. She is the anti Hule Todo list Trimmer who helps you do less but better. And the host of Coffee Table Talk. Or not the coffee table Talk Coffee
Tracy: table. . . Girl. I'm not the only ones that walks over it. I don't know. I, I didn't think it through with the name, but you know, we sit, there's a table.
Tracy: You're at your table. I'm at my table. We have coffee. Yeah, it's like the
Julia: coffee house. No, I love it. I just can never get it right. So welcome back to the show, . Thank
Tracy: you. I'm so
Julia: glad to be back. I'm glad you're here. I know it's like sometimes it's hard to coordinate with people's schedules and whatever, but like we see each other because of coffee table and because of, you know, um, Tracy's a member of the Patreon fam.
Julia: And so I get to see her during that stuff too. So it's nice to like actually have people back on the show. On the show. Like rather than just being like, Hey, let's hang out, you know? Cause there's other people involved in those conversations. This is like our conversation. That sounds selfish.
Tracy: I wanna Justin one on one time. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah. That's really why I started this show as an excuse to hang out with my friends. Just kidding. Whatever works. So I've been asking this question of everybody before we get into our topic of conversation. Do you remember what you thought of rich or wealthy women on TV or in media when you were a kid?
Julia: Yeah.
Tracy: Um, and I. So it's weird, like, so I grew up in the eighties, nineties, um, early two thousands. Yeah. And I feel like what I was watching, like when I think back about that, like what did rich people look like in the shows and the movies I was watching, I don't feel like there were a lot, like when I think about what I watched on the regular, it was stuff of more like regular folks, like, um, Roseanne and Home Improvement and Family Matters.
Tracy: Like where they, they were just like working and they might have talked about money issues and stuff even. Um, so like, that's what I was watching. I feel like there's definitely been a shift since then where a lot more media now is just of rich people either like subliminally, like of course they're rich of.
Tracy: Like everything is fine and easy for them. That's just how things are, which is not true. Um, or they're literally famous for being rich and like we're just supposed like we're watching cuz we're supposed to want their richness or whatever. So for the most part I feel like what I watched wasn't like that.
Tracy: Then I feel like there was another level where I did sort of notice they were richer than us and it was always like, you and I have talked about this before, like I'm. Study the sets of things that I watch, and so when I see that it's like designer or trendy furniture or like, it's always clean, but you don't see the person cleaning like that to me, triggers like a, they're, they got more than I do.
Julia: Mm-hmm. .
Tracy: But those ones for me were very like aspirational. And I felt like that's what I wanted. That's how I wanna be like, just cuz we don't have that. Like I feel like I'm gonna, which also I feel is very like, privileging. So like I can do that, I'm gonna do that. Yeah. Um, and then like the Rich, Rich that I can remember of what I watched then I'm thinking of like the lady in the fur, like, um, Mrs.
Tracy: Thurston, how II from Gills Island. , Yes. Like, um, I was just watching Overboard the other day, like Goldie and her mom, who like their whole life is just pampering and they're more of like, So if, if that's my thought of like, what did rich people in the media look like? Then I'm like, they have too much money, more money than they know what to do with.
Tracy: Mm-hmm. , like, kind of like an unfair, they don't deserve it kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Julia: It's interesting that you brought up the fur coat because symbols of wealth have come up a couple of times too. Like, you know, this person's wealthy because they're wearing it for a coat. They have mm-hmm. , lots of jewelry on, you know, things like that.
Julia: And it's just so interesting how the symbols of wealth have shifted over generations because when you think about like, I love Lucy and how she was just obsessed with like, Ricky, please buy me a mink. You know, like that was the thing. Mm-hmm. . And then when he finally did, um, it was, you know, one of those moments where she's so happy and she's so thrilled, and that's like a status symbol, but now it's like people don't buy fur.
Julia: That is not a thing our culture does, or at least on the mainstream. And you know, I've heard people say things like, well if you buy a fur it needs to be vintage because if you do it now, it's not kinda thing . So,
Tracy: but like now it's just, um, an eccentricity kind of thing, like to buy a fur and it's not the Here's how you show that you're wealthy.
Tracy: Yeah. It's like you can, you can do it if you're wealthy, but it's not what we're going
Julia: for. Yeah, a hundred percent. It's so interesting. Okay, so let's do a quick refresh for everyone on who Mackenzie Scott is. Mackenzie Scott was born in 1970 and as we mentioned, she was married to Amazon founder Jeff Bezos from 1993 to 2019.
Julia: And it was the divorce heard around the world. She received 35 billion in the divorce settlement and has done some major philanthropic activities since then. Her donations tend to lean towards historically underserved communities as well. In a profile by the New York Times, it was reported she was a privileged child from Connecticut whose family eventually filed for bankruptcy, which led her to receiving a loan from a friend so she could stay in school and continue studying creative writing under Tony Morrison.
Julia: Which I mean like, holy shit, that's the dream. Yeah.
Tracy: Yeah. That's where that privilege came from. Mm-hmm
Julia: to like, Amazing. So I know that you recently read her book, the testing of Luther Albright, so I'm just curious like what does that, cuz I didn't realize before researching for this, that she like was actively pursuing creative writing as a career.
Julia: So what, Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about the book she wrote and then like what maybe kind of insights that gave about who she is as a person?
Tracy: Yeah, like, that's why I wanted to read it. I wanted to see like, who is this lady? Is she just, you know, trophy wife or is she actually smart, like writing because she owns Amazon or writing because she's a writer.
Tracy: Um, I really like it. This is her first book and it got all kinds of accolades. Tori, Tony Morrison did the blurb. Like it was amazing. But then if you, when you look her up, like all the rest of this stuff is like, she wrote her first book, it was amazing, da da da da. And then it's like, and her second book came out in my, I dunno how that went.
Tracy: Like if I need to that also. But I really like this first book. Um, especially I think because it was actually based in Sacramento where I live and I'm from. And that was part of what started showing me like, Oh, this bitch knows what she's doing. Because the research was amazing. Um, it was very, It was just very real.
Tracy: It was like, and I enjoyed the writing in the sense that like, she really, she is a writer. She paints a picture. Um, and, and her writing is not like some of those writers are like, Look how writerly I am so wonderful. No, she's just like, she's giving us a gift of this story. Um, I thought it was interesting.
Tracy: Uh, at first I was like, Wait, I don't know if I like her her, because the main character was very unlikable. I was like, How can you be giving? Like, who's this guy? Yeah. But there was actually some, uh, like some q and a with her at the back of the book and she was explaining like the inspiration for him and um, that she's just interested in.
Tracy: Like, so basically I don't like him because the whole problem of the book is stems from him not communicating with his family ever. Like it's so, it's frustrating reading it because you're like, just say what you're thinking. That's all you have to do. Like, why are you making this such a big problem? So like, Do you think this is how we communicate?
Tracy: No, she understands . She was interested in how that plays out in an intimate relationship. Mm-hmm. . So I just, super kudo points. I feel like she is smart and pretty cool at figuring, like diving into what that would look like and show showing it to us. Um, yeah. So I don't know. That's really on her side by the end of
Julia: it.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool. I didn't realize it took place in Sacramento. That's interesting. I'll have to take a look at it. Cause you know, when I was like reading some of the stuff about her, it's like she very clearly grew like. You have the right circles if you are going to the school where Tony Morrison can be your mentor, essentially.
Julia: Um, and like you can borrow money from a friend. I mean, and they like, you know, whatever, that a college
Tracy: friend had a thousand dollars to give her . Nobody I knew in college had that kind of money and would've been even more in our timeframe. Yeah, yeah.
Julia: Seriously. I was like, Right girl. Like, get it, I guess.
Julia: But you know, she, she, it felt like she understood what she was given in life pre Bezos, Right? Like, it felt like she understood what she was given in life and wasn't gonna, wasn't gonna do anything to like, what's the phrase? Something about the gift house. A gift horse in the mouth. Look, look
Tracy: a gift horse in the mouth.
Tracy: Thank you. . Yeah,
Julia: like it's horses. Like she strikes me as the type who is like, Oh, I get it. Like, not everyone gets the kind of life I was born into, so I'm, I'm not gonna take advantage of that. I'm not gonna live like, I don't know how some of these other billionaires have lived in the world. Mm-hmm. .
Tracy: Well I was looking at that New York Times article that you reference about her and it seems like her dad did lose money a little bit like that.
Tracy: She kind of experienced both. Mm-hmm. and kind of going, marrying Jeff Bezos, like who had this kooky idea. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Cause it's helped you an online, like there was a little bit of like, this could go either way and just being okay with that. Yeah. But I imagine too though, just from the privilege that I have, like knowing, you know, the.
Tracy: The steps you can take forward knowing what's behind you to catch you if you fall.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That's true. And that's actually a really good segue into, um, so like, I hate that we are gonna talk about this next part because it's not def it is defining of who she is, but it's not the only defining factor of who she is.
Julia: But the way that the internet responded was just like, so we all know Mackenzie Scott received 35 billion from her divorce settlement from. We'll just call him who, who shall not be named anymore. , the first internet out cries I heard were of outrage like, how dare she get this much money? She doesn't deserve it.
Julia: And just like this whole thing about like, well what did she do? You know, that just picky kinda attitude. And so, you know, she spent 25 years married to this man who had this kooky idea that paid off. And you know, it had such a severe global impact. It literally changed her expectations when it comes to shopping and shopping online.
Julia: And so like to see that sort of play out with this attitude that it was like, what she did nothing. Yeah. Anyway, so I'm curious, did you know anything about her before 2019? No,
Tracy: and I'm gonna admit, like I was probably right there with him. Like I don't care enough to have been outraged. Mm-hmm. . But I'm sure that that would've been my first thoughts of like, who's this bitch?
Tracy: What'd she do? Like, lucky her. She gets half of that. Like, you know, because, and, and you know, boo on me for that being my first thought. But that is the messaging. That is what we see. Um, I'm picturing the, the lady infer with too much time on her hands and you know, did you deserve it? And too much money, then you know what to do with.
Tracy: And that's like the first thing I think we think of. Mm-hmm. when somebody just gets hell of money or has so much
Julia: money. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting because, so like as a single person, you know, watching like. My child's father is a very talented musician, and had he pursued that more seriously, I would've been in the position of, Okay, well I'll hold down the four.
Julia: I'll have the job so we could have, because he's so good. I still to this day believe that he is talented enough to have a very substantial career like that has ne, and if anything, he's just gotten better with age. So it's stupid that he's. Doing something with that. But, you know, capitalism dictates that we have to have a job with health insurance and all these things.
Julia: So, like, when that happened, I was like, I could totally see how it, like, I don't, without knowing their story, I could see how she, if in the early stage of, of Amazon, because how many people thought this man was crazy? ? Yeah, . She's the one with the real, real job. So that way they could have that steady income while he's trying to like, make his dream come true.
Julia: And like, I, I equated it to the life of like being married to a musician or an artist because they're not unsimilar in that way. You know, you don't know if it's gonna pay off and you don't know what's gonna happen and you could lose everything like business and art. There's really, that's really the only true.
Julia: They're very, very similar is what I mean. Mm-hmm. . So when, so when people were like, She doesn't deserve a time, I was like, Hold up. Hey, don't they have children that she
Tracy: raises? Yeah. What do you think she's been doing? And that's to the point, like, I didn't know enough about them. I didn't realize even how long they've been together that they were a family.
Tracy: Yeah. Like, yeah. My first thought is I heard there's a billionaire who's getting divorced from his wife. Of course he is. Yeah. And she's half shit. Like, that's all I knew. . Yeah, . Cause that's
Julia: the, it's presented like, uh, and you know, journalist at heart, but like even sometimes the media outlets, like the headlines, you know, journalists have no control over that, you know, an editorial decision.
Julia: But like, still, it's kind of like, Oh, you gotta do what you gotta do. So that way someone will click on the article to read it, but it just sort of contributes and perpetuates that mentality. They want
Tracy: that outrage. Mm-hmm. They want something. Mm-hmm. if it was just like a, Well, yeah, of course. After 25 years as many people do, they got divorced and da da.
Tracy: Like, that's boring. This needs to be a
Julia: story. Yeah. Yeah. And then I don't know if you followed it after, but I sure as shit did. Cause then it was like, well who? Here's Jeff Bezos and his new girlfriend who looks the same age as his children. You know, kind toned to it too. And you're just like, This is salacious
Julia: Yeah. I'm a suck for celebrity gossip and I'm really contributing to the problem by being one. It's just so fascinating. They're just like us
Tracy: celebrities.
Julia: Have you seen this? Do you do Apple? Oh man, There's a show on there called Loot starring Maya Rudolph. And it's sort of the same premise. This woman, you know, supported her husband in the early years to make his ideas big.
Julia: They're billionaires by the time they're in their late forties. Um, and she catches him cheating. And so by default of the divorce she becomes, you know, one of the wealthiest women in the world. And then it rip from the headlines. Mm-hmm. and then it follows her. So then she decides, oh, like she, oh, she's reminded, she has, their family has a non-profit.
Julia: So then she decides to get more involved with the non-profit and it's just her fumbling through, like having been the 1% for pretty much, you know, the last 20 years coming back down to Earth. In reality, it's actually really good. So
Tracy: wait, are they painting her as one of those didn't do anything except Pamper herself and be
Julia: rich people in the beginning.
Julia: But as the episodes unfold, you really start to learn how much support and what she really did do. And it's not necessarily, I'm not saying it's exactly about Mackenzie, Scott , but the wife, Maya Rudolph, um, her character, you really start to learn with every episode, like exactly how much she really did do to support her husband so he could make these things happen.
Julia: But it unfolds over time, which is really interesting. I'm really glad they chose to do it that way too, because you walk into it like, Oh, this bitch getting all like, that sucks. You got cheated on. Like, Oh, I'm so sorry. But then you just threw a fit and drove off in one of your rainbow colored Lamborghini
Tracy: You know what? That you were just reminding me of this trailer that we saw at the movies yesterday. Cause I went to the movies for the first time in like five years, um, with Regina Hall and Sterling Kay Brown. And it looks kind of the same. He's like, Have you heard of this movie? He's like a billionaire megachurch guy and disgrace.
Tracy: I can't remember now what it's called, but I think we're gonna see kinda the same thing from her .
Julia: Yeah. It's interest. It's so interesting how much, um, being the wife of somebody who sort of makes it big is discredited. Like you are just the little lady who's there to whatever. And you know, that just, it's so frustrating because what kind of message are we sending to future generations with that?
Julia: Like what are people taking away from that? Mm-hmm. . I'm not saying you have to answer that. It's a rhetorical
Tracy: question. I know. I'm thinking about, but I'm thinking about that just in general too. Cause like we don't see, we don't see a lot of women making themselves big the right way and doing the right thing.
Tracy: Mm-hmm. . And so yeah, we're gonna have to keep. Talking about this or seeing it or trying to see it a different way again and again. Yeah, yeah.
Julia: Yeah. Did you have anybody in like real life that you knew that you, like they, it turns out they were wealthy, but you like didn't understand that they had money?
Julia: That's not, That wasn't a prep question. I'm just curious. No,
Tracy: it's ok. I'm trying to think. Like I had friends who I knew had more money than us. Mm-hmm. , but like, I don't know, they still fall into that like middle tier, not that like you, who's this bitch rich? To me, Um, my parents owned a restaurant and I grew up working there like since I was 11.
Tracy: And so we did know a lot of people there and like from different walks of life, you know? Mm-hmm. . And there were definitely some people who I learned over time had money, but they like didn't present themselves as that. Like the guy would still wear flubby clothes and stuff like that. And they still, I mean, we weren't like a posh restaurant.
Tracy: They were coming to the greasy spoon diner. Yeah. So maybe that, Yeah. I mean, not that I like studied and knew how they got their money and what they did with it or anything.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. Cause I'm always curious too, like when I think about like, what. The presentation in real life, what that looks like. Cuz we talked earlier about like, you know, on tv, like the fur code and the things that, you know, were status symbols, but what does that even really look like in real life?
Julia: Like we had people who drove BMWs and um, cuz the church we went to whatever, like everyone wanted to have money. Mm-hmm. .
Tracy: Um, I don't think those people have any money. Poor as an adult looking at that. Yeah. When you see how much people are spending looking rich and they're like going, But I know what you do.
Tracy: Like you don't make, you're in, you know, hundred thousand dollars of debt for that, then really I'm richer because I'm
Julia: only in a little bit of debt. . Yeah. Truly though. Cause I was talking when Carly came on, um, I forget which episode it was that she was on where we talked about this. I didn't understand as a kid the concept that, that you could be car poor or house poor.
Julia: Like I saw my dad's friends driving BMWs and Mercedes and just being like, Oh my gosh, that car so fancy. And now it's like, You know, as an adult's, just like, Oh yeah, if you hit the sale at the right time, you can finance that for the low, low price of more than hundreds of dollars a month than you should
Julia: Yeah, . Same with being house poor too. Like the way that, um, how you should buy a house is perpetuated like on HGTV when they're just like, Well this house is just a smidge outta your budget.
Tracy: Yeah. Just go for it. Yeah. Like
Julia: a budget is suggestion. It's for me, it's a hard number.
Tracy: The first time when we started shopping for a house, the first lenders that we went to approved us for twice as much as we could afford.
Tracy: And like, thank God we did not go out and spend it because we would've gone bankrupt like immediately. I couldn't believe that they would do that based on our income. Like we still at this point cannot afford what they actually approved us for . I that's, But it was just like, that's just, that's what you do.
Tracy: This is what a house costs, so let me try and get you that money. Like,
Julia: no. Oh my gosh. That's very irresponsible on their end.
Tracy: Why? What's, nothing's gonna happen to them, like they're gonna get the commission. We're gonna get, you know, homeless. The bank's gonna lose some money, but they'll be
Julia: fine. So, I don't like that.
Julia: That makes me very uncomfortable. I also don't like making commitments to very big things because it's like, Oh man, I'm in it forever. Like I can't, makes my stomach turn a little bit. That's probably why I've an aversion to marriage.
Julia: You want me to sign a what and how hard is it to remove myself from you if I decide to change my mind in 10 years?
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Julia: In that same New York Times article, they added this quote. While Ms. Scott May be seeking to stay in the background, her funds are reshaping the nonprofit's profit sector in the United States and beyond. She's become arguably the most consequential philanthropist in the world right now. One who is very much operating in her own terms end.
Julia: And I do wanna add like inu. There's an episode that opens up with people getting phone calls about receiving these surprise grants of like lots and lots and lots of money. And it's just, it's, it's, the impact is huge. And then something awful happens later in the episode where you're just like, Well, shit, , I don't wanna ruin it for anybody.
Tracy: It's, I'm gonna have the gas on tv. .
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, but I'm just curious, like, what lessons do you think we can learn from Scott's Phila philanthropic endeavors? And the reason why I feel like you're a good person to have this conversation with is because you're always looking at ways to do things a little bit more ethically.
Tracy: Yeah. Um, and that's what I pulled from this. That's why I was so interested in her as a topic too. Well, once I started researching her, cause I really had no idea, Like, when we decided to do this episode, I was like, Oh, that rich bitch. Yeah, let's talk about it. It's cool learning what she did. Um, but yeah, so I see a few different things.
Tracy: Um, and the fifth being the closest to my heart is like, do what you want. So I've actually read her, she's written some medium art, like essays on medium.com about this process. Kind of like, just seems a little bit just accountability and just like a, I don't wanna talk to you about it. Let me just tell you it from my own words and then leave me alone.
Tracy: Sure. Um, so from what I gathered from. Like the way she's doing it, it's very much what you want. She's not following traditional like philanthropy methods. She even talks about like, what does philanthropy mean? And if you look at the root word, like it really just means love for the community, love for the other people.
Tracy: So you're a philanthropist with, you know, holding the door open for somebody. You're a philanthropist by giving your hand me downs to the neighbor or whatever. Like we're all kind of broadening that term for everybody. Encouraging us to do that more. Um, but just the, like that she does this kinda stealthily mm-hmm.
Tracy: that's on her own terms that she's doing it. Huge amounts of money that's on her own terms that she decided to like, give away all her money That's on her own terms. Um, a huge part of what she's doing is, um, I guess I should have started with these other two. So first consent, like she is giving money to these organizations, but then letting them come forward first to describe what they're doing with it, or, you know, how much it was or anything like that.
Tracy: Like she gives the names of them, but that's it. And she's like, they'll tell you the way they want to, what they're doing with these funds. So, Cause um, that goes to the other point that I wanna bring up is trust. Trust. Like she's trusting these people. She, you know, she has her company doing the digging to figure out that they deserve it or whatever.
Tracy: That they are the boots on the ground that know what to do to solve these issues. But she's trusting them to tell us the right way to use it. The right way to make change the right way. Like, she's not saying, I've got a billion dollars here and I wanna fix world hunger. Here's how you need to spend my money to do that.
Tracy: She's like, Hey, people that have been working to solve world hunger, How do you want to do that? Here's the money, go do it. So she's giving them all this trust and actually, um, there's been, I don't know where the research came from cuz it came through her article, so maybe it's from her own organization, but like the trust that she gave along with the funds to these orgs was as much the gift because it, she's receiving word back from them that like, that empowerment is making just as much difference as like the 5 million.
Tracy: Yeah. Um, so I love that just like in what we do with our families or in, you know, I'm a business consultant coach, trusting the people that are doing the work. Mm-hmm. yourself. Mm-hmm. or your, your employees giving that autonomy and that. Empowerment to do what they need to do, the consent, um, we can do with our children or again, in business, like asking, Can I tag you?
Tracy: Can I share this message? Um, and then also the idea that like, you can't do it alone. She's not the one trying to help all these people. And I love too that she's going for, like you said, historically, um, under help underserved communities. Yeah. Um, she's letting the people there do it. She's got a team finding them.
Tracy: She's not trying to do any of this alone. She's just trying to be like the conduit of like, Here, let me give you what I can. Then you go do what you can. Mm-hmm. . I love that. That we all do like what's in our
Julia: area. Yeah. I love what you said about the autonomy part because you know, there's so much in our current culture where whether you experience it as an employee or just whatever it is that you do, where there's this sort of like, you hired me or you sought me out because I'm good at what I do.
Julia: I know what I do, but then yet you are now telling me how to do it, which is the antithesis, right? Like I thought the point of bringing me on was to be able to, cuz you saw you're the person for this, now I'm going to give you the avenue to do it, which doesn't really seem to exist a lot. And even though we're trying to help that become more true, it's still very much a uphill battle for people who are skilled and talented.
Julia: Micromanagers come to mind. Mm-hmm. , like, I've had to learn that myself too. When someone, um, calls into question something that I'm doing, I have to remind myself that's actually not about me. It's about them. That's their, that's their anxiety talking because doing this for 15 years, 20 years, I don't sure I spell things wrong.
Julia: Absolutely, I do. I also don't have a neurotypical brain, so that's where that comes from. But when it comes to certain elements and having worked in the nonprofit sector, so much of grants is this is how you have to do it. Even though we've been the ones boots on the ground, as you say. And that's really hard too.
Julia: That's
Tracy: a huge shift that is definitely needing to happen. It's definitely not the norm, but I think. , like that's part of my life's work, , is to like, I believe that we all can do what we can do the very best mm-hmm. . And so we need to stop trying to do what everyone else is doing and to focus on ourselves and in that same sense, like allow the other people that know what they're doing mm-hmm.
Tracy: to do that shit. So I'm gonna stay in my zone of genius. I'm gonna hire the people to do the things that I'm not the best at when I have employees. I'm gonna say, you do what you're the best at. Um, I'm gonna encourage my clients to do what they're the best at. And, and yeah. When you're, especially as a manager, just like let people do the work you hire them to do and realize that they're having done it is.
Tracy: Teaches that. Like that's how you know what to do, what's the right thing to do? So I love, love, love that she is just giving the money to the people instead of trying to direct mm-hmm. the
Julia: solution. I think that's huge. I think what, what I'll do now, not now this very moment, but I'm curious to see like what the results are from that too.
Julia: Because again, like I said, when I've worked in nonprofit, it's like, here's how you have to spend the money. And then, you know, we don't always get, it gets, it kind of gets in the way of doing the work that you need to do because it's mm-hmm. , not everything, not every community is exactly the same. When I worked at adult education, we had people who came to us who were like, I wanna go to college.
Julia: Cool. Tell me more. Well, I dropped out of high school. Okay. Let's talk about your high school career. So like, every student we had had different learning needs, whether it was, you know, they had a learning disability, a learning difference. I can't even tell you how many people came to me who could not read beyond a third grade reading level.
Julia: And they were full blown adults, but we were told how we had to teach them. And if that system worked for them in school, they may not have ended up being a high school dropout. So like, yeah, having that flexibility to teach them in the ways that they needed to learn was a constant fight. Constant fight.
Julia: Yeah.
Tracy: And that's the switch that we need. That's what you, You just totally laid it out. Like we need that flexibility. We need that switch from like what I've always seen in business is here's how you do it. And what we need to switch to is, here's the results I want to get. How can we get there? And how you get there can be different per person, and that's okay.
Tracy: But when you focus on the results, you can actually get there. Yeah. The right way for that person.
Julia: Yes. Oh my gosh. It is like a death sentence when someone tells me, Well, this is how you have to spend your day, , girl, I don't have, I have attention issues and I'm an artist. Good luck with forcing me to do that.
Julia: I'd like to see you try.
Tracy: You can't tell. I don't want them telling you what hours you should be working, like morning versus night, this many hours in a row. Like all of that should be flexible. Mm-hmm. so that you can get your best workout. Like, because again, focusing on the results doesn't matter how you do.
Tracy: It doesn't matter if you need to dick around for three days and then ba bam, put everything out in 20 minutes. If that's your process and that's what gets you the results, that's the way
Julia: to do it for you. And I think there's a lot of people who are threatened by that too, because I don't think we fully understand how to utilize everyone in the strengths that they have.
Julia: Yeah.
Tracy: And it's scary, but, so I was kind of having a similar conversation to this with my mom the other day where I was trying to tell her like, everyone should just get to do what they want in the world. And she was like, Well, we need doctors. And I said, There are people that want to be doctors, people that are meant to be doctors that maybe don't get to be doctors right now because it's so cost and time prohibitive.
Tracy: And if there was just literally a new system in the world where if you're a doctor in your soul, you get to go be a doctor, I feel like that would work out. Yeah. Um, and the artist can go be an artist, but oh my gosh, that feels so complicated. Right? Like, how are we gonna figure out who gets to be and how do they figure out?
Tracy: Well, yeah, it's complicated and I don't have the answers to that. , but the situation that we're in is super complicated as well and it's not working. Mm-hmm. , So couldn't we at least try that? And to McKenzie Scott's idea, I don't need to have the answers, but maybe there's someone out there that has been thinking about this and has something to try and has been boots on the ground, figuring out how to let people be themselves and do, and see how that works for the community overall.
Tracy: And we could all still live and eat and be housed. Like, wouldn't that be amazing? Yeah. Socialists or something. .
Julia: I believe that everyone should have what they need to survive. It's not a weird concept. We should all, Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that you like what, um, sparked me the. Made my brain fire off the most was this idea.
Julia: There are people who sort of pretend to be in that realm of like, I'm gonna let you do cuz I hired you cuz you're talent. But then they still get in the way. .
Tracy: Yeah. Well, I wonder how much of that is, like, who's above them doing that? Yeah. Yeah. That's Cause I tried real hard when I was a manager in the real, real world quotes before I worked for myself.
Tracy: Um, like I would try and do that too. Like, Hey team, you guys are the ones doing it. You tell me how does it go? But then I'm still hearing from above and above and above and above. Yeah. No, they need to be here. They need to be doing that. This is a, Yeah. So dumb. It's hard. I don't know the answer to like get out of this system.
Tracy: I just see that it's wrong. Yeah. And what the right one looks like .
Julia: Yeah. For real though. Like a friend of mine who works in the medical field, a few years ago when Canada started doing these sort of safe houses for folks who have historically, um, abused illicit drugs. And so they were like, We have this huge problem.
Julia: The problem is, is our ERs are overrun with drug overdoses because people are getting brought in. We have like this huge, there's other parts of that problem too. So then they make these safe houses where there's like a medical, a medically trained professional there. So that way when you overdose, like there's somebody there and like that's just the place to go.
Julia: I should do some more. I should pull up the, I should research that so I can like, do fact checking for sure. But my friend brought it up and, and she posed it to, you know, Facebook land as one does 10 years ago, people were like, That's, you're just encouraging drug behavior and all this stuff. But the numbers were there.
Julia: I saw
Tracy: a news segment about that two days ago. Yeah. Like literally people are, it's a crack den and you're just giving them drugs, like, because it's a harm reduction center, Uhhuh, but
Julia: the numbers were there. Their, their, their emergency room costs were going down like this, this, this huge problem had reduced so much.
Julia: And so, you know, like, what's the, let's try this concept here. And there was. So many people were against it and it was just like, That's so interesting because you're also very mad about the homelessness in our neighborhood that you decide that you wanna rail about. You're also very mad that your children can't play on the playground because there's people quote, shooting up.
Julia: Like all the things that you're mad about. If we just gave a safe spot for these, you don't wanna go to the er. You'd rather go have in urgent care because it's overrun by druggie. Like these are all the things people are saying and I'm just like, We have a solution that's been tried, proven to work. Can we try it here?
Tracy: Yeah. That's another example of the how I want things done versus the results. Do you want people to not do drugs in all the places that you're complaining about? Or do you want them to like get help? They want, they just wanna say, don't shoot up ever. Like there should be no more drug use. Well, that's not a thing.
Tracy: Do you want people to get help? Cause if we're looking at the results and here's a solution that actually works for that. Let's go that way. Yeah. Um, and you brought up an interesting point. One of, one of the things that McKenzie talks about in one of her medium articles is like not having, Yes. The, the people with the boots on the ground, but like, and all facets of the problem.
Tracy: Anybody that is affected. So, so she would want those people that are upset about the parks and everything. Part of a conversation along with the actual drug users, along with the healthcare professionals, along with the people that have the solution, like all of it. So I think that was really cool too, like, um, bringing in all information to try and see what the real solution
Julia: is.
Julia: I love that. I love that because then you're attack attacking the problem from all angles, because that's the other problem with the, Here's how I'm telling you how to spend your money. Scenario because you're not actually listening to what we're saying when we say, These are our needs. You're dictating what our needs are.
Julia: Once again, gosh. Like, Sorry, go ahead.
Tracy: Oh, I was gonna say, when you, when you ask all parties, then you get a clearer picture of what the results are that you're aimed, you're aiming
Julia: for. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love that. And I just love her for doing that because again, you know, it shows that she's dedicated to the idea of Phil being a Phil.
Julia: Phil, Phil. Philanthropy,
Julia: words are hard apparently. Um, and so much of philanthropy has been, you know, just rich people. Look at how great I am, cuz I give this organization money. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Well, I wear my fur coat to the opera
Julia: I don't need to be the solution, I'll just pay for it to be self. Mm-hmm. sometimes though, when I'm really tired of people, I'll be like, How much money do you want to make? So that way you can get what you need done and you can leave me alone. Alone. Cause I'm tired. Much money.
Tracy: Yeah. Sometimes money is the answer.
Tracy: When we go back to my thought of like we all have something that we are the best at. Like some people are the worker, some people are the donator, some people are the railer up. Mm-hmm . Some people are the gathering all the information and highlighting the problem. Like we all have a role and sometimes yeah, we just need to throw some money at it.
Tracy: So please give some money to it. .
Julia: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
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Julia: Hit the link in the show notes.
Julia: How do you think, or how does, or how has Mackenzie Scott informed your opinions, subtle or otherwise about wealthy and powerful women?
Tracy: Um, researching her has brought to, at least, has made me realize that I had that idea even of like, there's a certain level of rich where like you don't deserve it. Um, and when I think more about that, I think it's more about.
Tracy: I'm more worried about what you do with the money, and I'm seeing that like there's a limit to how much one person needs. And so, and not like what the money, what good the money can do. Like we were just saying, like sometimes we just need the money. So throw the money. If you've got money, give money. Yeah.
Tracy: Um, so like I, I am realizing my opinion that, um, there is, well, I guess I knew this already, like there should be no billionaires. Yeah. But there, there's, there's only a certain amount of money that you need. And so I want to see women wealthy with power, with money, um, to the extent that they can do good work with it.
Tracy: Yeah. And, and I'm also feeling like having studied her and like, she seems kind of like a fluke, right? Like, so I'm, this is still something that I want to think about and dive into, but I'm feeling like. It is kind of a fluke that like someone with so much money would do something so good with it. Mm-hmm.
Tracy: And why is that? Is that because like good people don't go make that much money to begin with? Like they self limit, Like I think like they realize this more than I need, I'm done. Mm-hmm. or can you only make that much money by doing not good things? Like, cause where did that money come from to begin with?
Tracy: To begin with? Like definitely exploitation and like bad things. Yep. So I don't know that we can see another example of that or that we want to like, I don't know. I think I'm leaning more towards like, I want, I want money. I want you to have money. I. Us to have enough money to like be safe ourselves, to get to do the things that we are supposed to do.
Tracy: Mm-hmm. , while, while money is still the way that you get to do that, like , maybe there's a world in which there is no money. I was in a really interesting conversation a few days ago where like, do we need money? What if we all just could do the thing we're supposed to do? But I want us, I want us to have money, but I want us to do it the good way.
Tracy: I want it to do it. I want us to do it where it feels good to us, where it's not exploitative of others. Um, yeah, I don't know. That's where I'm at, I think is kind a fluke.
Julia: I, I agree too. And then when I was thinking about, well, who else do am I aware of that's a billionaire, You know, like obviously Elon Musk came to mind.
Julia: and, you know, not my favorite person and not a lot of people who have ethics, favorite person, Um, her ex-husband for crying out loud. Like another one where you're just kind of like, eh, you're a little unethical. Well now, but
Tracy: he's given lots of billions of dollars away too.
Julia: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. He's still union busting though.
Julia: Mm-hmm. . So , I've got opinions about that.
Tracy: And, but then that gets so hard too. Like she still got like 4% Amazon stock or something. Like she's still making money off this terrible shit. Yeah. But she's giving it away. Yeah. Like where do
Julia: you, It's almost like that's her redemption too, right? Like, I know that this money is coming from horribleness, so like, as a redemption, Let me give it to this fraction over here.
Julia: I don't know. It's hard. It's a hard conversation. Um, Because how many female billionaires are there even, you know, it's like, who can we even compare her to? Oprah. Isn't Oprah in the billions?
Tracy: Oh sure. Well, some Kardashians.
Julia: Oh yeah. Well, yeah. Okay, so she's not in the best of company all around. Whoops.
Julia: Please don't come at me. Kardashian fans. . I too get sucked into the TV show, but I also
Tracy: Oh yeah. I'm gonna watch it, but, um, I'm mad
Julia: at them. Yeah, yeah. I have, We're allowed to like things and also be frustrated at the same time. Um, yeah, because it's interesting because she is sort of, An enigma in a way where she's sort of in a class by herself right now.
Julia: Like you, I don't think that there should be billionaires. I think that is beyond excessive. And I think because of how many billionaires currently exist, that's why a lot of people feel like we're in the end stages of capitalism because we're not gonna like, like where else are we gonna go from that point?
Julia: Right? Um mm-hmm. . And so it's just, it's interesting. It's interesting. I just find it also very interesting.
Julia: I still don't know how I feel about wealthy, powerful women.
Tracy: That's what this season is for, right? Mm-hmm. , this is you figuring it out. This is you doing the thing you're supposed to do, which is figuring out, like gathering all this information mm-hmm. , communicating with the people, figuring this shit out for us so we can figure out what we think about it.
Tracy: Yeah. Yeah.
Julia: Cause I have a, I have this joke that I missed my, I missed my calling as a trophy life because life is too hard and the hurdle, there's too many hurdles for brown women and I'm over it. Um, but then that's also a problem, right? Because then I could have been in this situation like Mackenzie Scott, or my Rudolph's character from Luke, where I've married somebody.
Julia: It's not the best situation and then I walk away, you know, Cuz that for a long time, that was the only way women could get into wealth was, you know, by marrying the right person, whether it was for love or not. Mm-hmm.
Julia: Lots to think about. Tracy .
Tracy: Mm-hmm. , that's a whole other thing that's at me, my son too, the other day. Like, did she sleep her way to the top or did the men withhold promotions until she gave it up? Like, that's a whole thing. Why did I even think what, what even is the free trophy wife? Like why is that something that we would say about another woman?
Tracy: And yeah. That's a whole other conversation.
Julia: Yeah. Like, why did I ever think I should aspire to be something like that that was not, that's definitely not how I was raised. Um, so interesting. Maybe I should, uh, it's so, Oh, I'm even
Tracy: saying why is that even a thing? Like why is that something that we need to do or think we need to do?
Tracy: Yeah,
Julia: yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting that, so I know that questions rhetorical, but I actually have thought about it a lot, . Um, and so a lot of it for me is like back to what I said before, realizing. Just how many hurdles there are as a female in either corporate America, even working for the government, even working for non-profit and non-profit.
Julia: My non-profit experience is heavily female. Um, coworkers and bosses. So it's like the, like in my head it was like, it would just be so much easier if I could just marry somebody who made enough money for us to be comfortable and then some, cuz I am so, like my legs should look so much better. Mm-hmm. for all the hoop jump and I've done mm-hmm ,
Tracy: I've definitely had that thought too, like, why'd I have to go fall in love?
Tracy: that's all this equal empowerment shit. Yeah.
Julia: And I think for me it wasn't even about love, it was just about like, this will make my life easier. I'm like, I'm not opposed to hard work. That is not what I'm saying. It was just, you know, being in the room. I mean, we all know have that story where we're in the room, we have an idea and somebody else takes credit for it.
Julia: Like that is pretty much every woman. But I'm, you know, it's this constant getting into positions where you're the expert, you're the talent, you're, the reason why we hired you is because we can know, we can elevate you. I go to Elevate and they're just like, No, actually we don't want like, nope, nope, nope, nope.
Julia: And it's just a whole bunch of notes and you're just like, You know what, , why am I here?
Tracy: if I were a
Julia: white guy, would you be doing this to me? I'm very curious. , that's not a question you can ask without somebody bristling and feeling like, Oh my God, don't say the truth. Yeah, like, don't call me racist. That's not what I said. I said if I was woman, I think we could spend hours having this conversation because I think there's a lot of deep reflection that need that goes into situations like this, because I don't, we've never seen female billionaires until pretty much our generation.
Julia: So to have just a simple hour long conversation. It's not, it's not enough. But there's still so much more, like you've given me so much to think about just in like terms of McKenzie's life and her choices and what her company does. I'm gonna go find those medium articles to read myself too, because, Yeah, definitely.
Julia: Because it's just, it's, there's so, it's such a complex, it's, it's just complex and so unpacking it and new ideas are always kind of hard to grapple with at first. So. Hmm. , was there anything else about her that we missed that you want everyone to know? I
Tracy: don't think so. I mean, yeah, I'm not her new, but I just definitely.
Tracy: She seems cool. . Yeah. Nice. I draw what she's doing.
Julia: Yeah. Well, I appreciate your time today and I thank you for joining us and I love when you stop by. This is, I think, your third appearance on the show, which is so exciting. Can you please tell our friends at home where they can find you if they wanna keep up with you online?
Julia: Oh yeah.
Tracy: Um, so I'm on Instagram at Tracy dot Sanger. Um, I don't post there. I have some static posts that will tell you all about what I do, how I can help you. Um, but I am in the stories all the time. That's where I have my fun and in the dms. Um, and then at coffee house table on Tuesdays at 10:00 AM Pacific, it's just like open house.
Tracy: Come to my Zoom room. If you're watching this video, it looks like this. Yeah. . Um, and it's just like literally like hanging out at your local coffee house. Come in anytime during the hour. Leave if you have to. Don't talk, if you don't want to be off camera, if you want to. Like introvert friendly, No pressure.
Tracy: We just chat. We have convos a lot like this and a lot like, Did you read that? Did you watch that? What's going on in your life right now? Um, Jules comes pretty much every week. Like, Yes, you can sell it for me, but that's why I wanna meet you and get to know you.
Julia: Yeah. I have note cards actually, of all the things that get brought up in, in coffee because I'm like, Oh, that sounds interesting.
Julia: I'm gonna write that down. So that way when I'm like, I don't have any anything, don't watch, I reference the note card and go and find it. So it's definitely, um, not just a great place for recommendations, but also just a great place to like meet some really cool people. Um, similarly minded. It's fun to make new friends, especially when you are an introvert.
Julia: Surprisingly, friends at home, I'm an introvert. I don't like leaving the house. I hate talking on the phone. Please leave me alone, but if you get me on a zoom call, I will not stop talking. So it's so, it's like ideal cuz then it's like you get socialization and then you can lay down after because you're tired, but it's also good tired.
Tracy: It's a cup filling place for, um, I don't, I think you were there for the call where we decided like we're the ones that were too weird for the normals. Too normal for the weirdos. Yeah. Like the coolest of the uncool. Yeah. The un coolest of the coolest that you that you
Julia: show up and definitely check out Tracy's stuff.
Julia: Um, I just wrapped up doing the space you want with her and that was a really good opportunity to sort of like dust off some business ideas and get some of the cobwebs out of the way. Cuz sometimes those cobwebs get real thick and you think, why can't I see? Um, so definitely check her out and what she's about.
Julia: Pop culture makes me jealous, is written, edited, and produced by me, Julia Washington. And I am fueled by the incredible support system of women who allow me to run. Cry, meltdown. Whenever I feel overwhelmed. I also wanna do a big shout out to our Patreon
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Julia: joy to bring you quality content, and monthly get togethers.
Julia: Thanks for tuning in y'all. Until next time.
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