Black Widow | 24
Show Notes:
Shy is BACK and we are talking about the highly anticipated Black Widow.
Transcript:
Julia: Hey friends, this is pop culture makes me jealous. And I'm your host, Julia. And on today's show. Shai is back and we are talking black widow
black widow release, July 9th, 2021. And it started Scarlett Johannson, the solo movie of the conflict. With the vendor Natasha offers not only her origins, but vulnerability. We have yet to see enrollment in any other Marvel movie that has come before mark Kermode of promoted. Mayo had this to say the film, put flesh on the bones of the character in a way that hadn't been done before I enjoyed it.
And I wasn't bored though. I was baffled by the act. Brian to Lyrica, a Roger ebert.com wrote director Cate Shortland movie confirms that black widow could have carried her own flick ages ago. There's enough character backstory and intrigue in her world for a whole series while audiences. And some critics are saying this is the best Marvel film yet.
Not everyone is enthralled by black widow. The daily beast ran a review with the headline marbles. Black widow movie is one last insult to Natasha room. Surely Lee from the Atlantic wrote the film ceases to be about Natasha wrestling with her heroism by pitting her against a raging misogynist. Black widow tries to simplistically cast Natasha as a pop feminist icon shy was with us with a wander vision discussion and Falcon in the winter soldier report.
So I have to say, I love it when you stopped by to talk about marble.
Shy: Thanks. I love that we could just like nerd
Julia: out and a side note to listeners. This is going to have spoilers. So you've been warned if you haven't seen the movie, I'm sorry. You took so long first let's dive into the recap and what better than the source material than Disney?
Right? So Disney. In Marvel studios action packed, spy thriller, black widow, Natasha Romanov, AKA black widow confronts the darker parts of her lecture. When a dangerous conspiracy with ties to her past arises, pursued by a force that will stop at nothing to bring her down. Natasha must deal. So let's get into it.
I'm curious first to kick it off with Shirley, Lee's comment about trying to make. Pop feminist icon.
Shy: You feel like, I don't feel like they were forcing her to become a pop feminist icon. I think the opportunity was there and they grabbed at it right now is kind of like the right political climate to try to do that.
And it's not like they went to wonder woman and said that they were making wonder woman movie to grab at the pop culture feminism icon thing right now. We're like, it's just, that's how it kinda. Is, I dunno, she's always been, um, she's always been like a bad-ass and I feel like this was just a way to,
Julia: to show it off.
I agree. I was a little irritated by that comment because. So I went back and watched iron man this past weekend as part of my Natasha Romanoff research because you know, the character's been around forever, so she's grown so much. And so watching her an iron man too. And when we first meet her an iron man too, and then seeing her.
Evolution through to black widow. I know that black widow takes place in a different time span than like it wasn't released at the time. You know what I mean? It's like in between the whatevers and she's grown so much into the character to the point where like, yeah, I'm not a scar Joe fan, but when people were talking shit, I was like, excuse me.
No, no, no, no, you don't talk shit about. Black Quinones girl hands. That's not a thing that we're doing right now. We don't do that. Good men
Shy: walked into this thinking. I got to watch the Florence, Pugh and Scarlett Johannson and their tight suits for the next two hours. But I mean, did you not expect them to fight and make some sort of political statement with the fact that they are women kicking ass?
Like I don't, you can't have it both
Julia: ways. And so to quote the guy that sat next to me, he said in the movie theater, he said, I don't even, I thought this is what origins movie, like all we got was her last name, sir. Excuse me. Were you sitting in the same movie? So for listeners, if you haven't seen it, I think it's the first 15 or 20 minutes you get.
Childhood flashback. So it goes back to, I think 1995 was that the year flashed back to it, must've been around there. It was 90 something and she's like 10. And then she's got a little sister and Rachel Wise is her mom and the guy from thank you. Just couldn't remember. There are family. And so what we know of black widow, and you're sitting there thinking like, I'm confused, how, what I thought she didn't have family.
Like I thought she was plucked out of an orphanage. I don't understand what's happening. And then you get this very family centric. These girls are young and free and happy and you know, mom and dad and they probably, you know, you, you just get the. To me, it felt very strongly nostalgic of the nineties like that flashback.
And then you find out that they're working for whoever is anti shield. I don't remember. And the Russian spies and they've been embedded in America to steal shield secrets. And then there's this scene that unfolds where they have to escape quickly in like one of those tiny little puddle jumper planes, people across the internet, specifically mine.
The opening scene sucked. That was bullshit. I don't understand why it was there and I'm over here. Like, no, no, that makes perfect sense. Like she had a family, so like this tug for her fight to find a family is so, so much stronger now. Like you feel it so much more now when you go back and watch the other movies, because it wasn't real, she's been a spy since she was 10.
Before that,
Shy: cause she all recently knew what the red room already was. Cause she didn't want to see her sister go through it.
Julia: That's right. She said, no, don't send her she's too young. Oh my God. That broke my heart. Yeah. I guess let's move on to what our impressions were of the film and, and the storytelling and all of it, because I thought Marvel did a great job.
So
Shy: when I thought it was a really great. Delve into her backstory. I didn't get maybe as much as I wanted to necessarily, but I'm hoping that, I mean, we still have the Hawkeye show too. Like, I didn't feel like they kind of went into the history of Budapest and why it was so important either, but I'm hoping with the Hawk eye show that we kind of delve into that a little bit more,
Julia: um, That's a really good point.
I guess I didn't pick up on that.
Shy: They were there and they made a point to say, like, those were arrows in the walls. It was probably when Flint was trying to hunt her down, but they didn't really delve into like anything more than that or how their friendship developed, I guess.
Julia: Yeah, because throughout the whole thing, they have this really strong bond and there's no real explanation for it.
You just know that their besties like that scene, what, which one is it in where they go to Hawkeyes, like sanctuary house or whatever. There's two, thank you. And his wife's pregnant and you know, she's like talking to the baby, like it's a girl. And she's like, actually Linda Carter, when he was like, oh, it's actually going to be whatever male name is here.
Yeah. Just like trade her to the stomach. I was like, oh, that's cute. You guys are really close. How. I, I, I thought that the opening. But it was so important to helping us understand why she's so guarded too, because
Shy: first of all, that whole opening sequence was so important because I know for a fact, because I missed it.
When I went to the movie theater, I was in line for popcorn and the line for popcorn was way too long and I missed the first 10 minutes and I walked in during the credits. Sat down and going, what did I miss? And my husband had to kind of fill me in and then watching the whole rest of the movie, I was like, okay.
Okay. Okay. And then we came home and immediately bought it on Disney plus because I wanted to see the first part of it. And then that beginning part there's so many callbacks later on in the rest of the movie and it really does develop. How they really felt like they were a family when they were in Ohio, even though they weren't actually family.
Um, I feel like it, it was a super important part and especially, uh, showing how. Scary and terrible Drake off was about the girls. I heard a lot of people watch it and get kind of freaked out because apparently, uh, human trafficking is very much like that scene. Yes. And
Julia: that's when I, when we were in the theater, seeing that scene, I thought, oh my gosh, like, this is.
And I wondered if Disney was intentional about that parallel. It hit, it, hit my heart a lot, and it really felt like this is going to be a movie where we are going to tackle very major female themes. So if you don't like it, get the fuck out this whole concept of taking young girls and, and, and grooming them to be assassins.
But then also. Like forcing them into it in a way. I don't know. It just removes that autonomy that one can have in, in, in, you know, freewill doesn't exist in this sort of concept. And so Natasha fought so hard to get her freewill back and then to watch her struggle throughout the movie with how she gained that freedom back was really just, I.
It felt like such a hero's journey. She thought she had done this right thing. Right. She thought she had killed the guy years ago. And now that's being called into question and other things are happening. And now she's like yet again, having a crisis of conscious. Cause there's another, I forget which one it was.
Was it winter soldier, where she has the conscious of crisis where she's like, I thought I was working for the good guys again, but then they find out that shield was doing like, or somebody inside shield was doing weird shit. Yeah. It was like the Hydra situation. I felt like we were on the journey with her.
I felt like when she was devastated about the guy's dog, I was devastated about the guy's daughter. You know what I mean? Like I really thought that they got deep into how they told the story and just trying to convey her in a way that we haven't seen before.
Shy: Yeah, I got that because you really haven't had much backstory and then Tasha at all, even though she's been in all of these movies and we've seen her like hero's journey, we don't really know behind the scenes of any of that at all.
So it was pretty
Julia: interesting to watch. So as we're talking about the plot, the themes, the structure, the cast of characters. So the movie runs about two hours and 13 minutes, and I'm going to be completely honest here. There were moments where I was like, this is taking forever and I was getting restless because I felt like some areas dragged a little bit.
And so some critics argue that the plot is really weak. Do we agree? Do we disagree? I know. I
Shy: don't agree with that necessarily. There was some points though that I felt like could have been beefed up maybe a little bit more specifically. I was thinking at the very beginning. Um, at the very beginning, you're watching these two girls and the story, and then at the end, right before Natasha gets drugged, the dad character says, oh, that's Natasha.
And I'm like, he's saying it in a way that I'm like, are you not supposed to realize that was Natasha this whole time? Because immediately in my mind, I was like, oh, that's Natasha, obviously. So I don't know if that was something that was supposed to be like a,
Julia: like a gotcha.
Shy: That sort of situation. Right.
But at that felt kind of obvious and the task master master thing. Um, I had like a nagging suspicion in my head that, oh, maybe it was his daughter the whole time. And then it was so maybe it's just some of those things could have been maybe tightened up a little bit more. So you had the element of surprise behind them, but I didn't feel like the plot was like lacking in any way.
Julia: And you know, there is a point to where you're just like, okay, we know she dies. Like that's a given it's it's inevitable. We know that. So there are some of the, like my son and I talked about how some of the fight scenes felt. When you normally don't know, like at the release of all these Marvel films and you're watching and there isn't another film yet that tells you what already has happened in black widow, these fight scenes, where she's in these sort of scary situations.
It's like, well, we know she survives. Like we know she's not dying here. This isn't the end of her story. And so I had said to him, I said, I think that they were trying to make it tense for the other characters. Like, do we think that the other characters are going to survive, but because we know she's going to survive, maybe by default, we assumed they would survive to.
I can
Shy: see that my whole thing going into the movie was, even though I know she survived, I knew that taskmaster was going to be the villain character. And in my mind, I was like, how is she going to defeat this villain this whole time? Because he's like, he is a perfect mimic. And like, how are you going to fight something that can exactly do what yours doing?
So that was what was running through my mind, even though I know that she was going to survive, like I just, how is she going to fight that? And I think he did the best with it as they could, like she didn't end up fighting her. That was like really the only way they could have gone. I don't know. I don't know how that character is going to come back either.
I feel like it's an important character to bring back. I just don't know in what capacity they will bring her back. And if she's going to be a good guy or bad guy or. Like a neutral mercenary type situation. Am
Julia: I right? Because there was that point where they do sort of have this sort of soulful moment where she thinks she speaks to her, but that could go in any direction posts, you know, their interaction.
I did think it was interesting though. They commented on how they started doing. Biogenetic alterations or whatever it was, you know, the mind stuff. Cause you know, they, they brought that up a couple of times too throughout the movie. And there was that, um, obviously, cause that's part of the plot and how they had this like powder type stuff to get them to be released from that chemical control.
So a couple of years ago I had heard about. In Europe. I don't know if this is true because you know how people just talk and they get scared and things come out of fear, but there were these there's warning. If you go into, you know, bars and clubs in Europe, to be careful because there's like this powder substance that people could blow into your face, and then you just sort of like check out and then they Rob you.
So that's what I was thinking in my head the whole time. Releasing this powder on these women to like relinquish them from this fold of the red room. What did you think about the casting of like Rachel Wise and Florence Pugh and David Harper? Like, did you think that was a good choice? I thought
Shy: they weren't excellent.
I, well, I, I think I'm biased because I already loved all three of them in, just in the different things, projects that I've seen them do. Um, Florence Pugh is hilarious. She's she's so funny. And I felt like the way that she's did her lines, like there was a lot of ways that they could have taken yelling at him, but I feel like the way that she comes off with that dry sarcasm is like perfect for that character.
And she does it so well and she kicks ass. I love it. Um, and David Harbour is. Great to watch. I I'm a big fan of stranger things. So I love watching him in that. And then I have the biggest celebrity crush on Rachel vice. Like I think she's beautiful and amazing. And I, like, I gush about her every time I saw, like, I hear that she's going to be in something I'm like, I have to watch it.
Knowing that she was in there and she plays such a bad-ass character. I thought that was pretty cool. I do wish she had a little bit more screen time maybe, but, you know,
Julia: I actually expected her to have more screen time. I thought that they gave David Harper a lot of screen time, which I understand because of the character that he was playing.
But I thought that because, you know, Rachel, I still sort of stayed within the system of whatever the red room has created outside of the red room itself. I know. I guess I wish that we had a little bit more of her because she was such a caring mother in the beginning. And then, you know, we don't see her again until they, I don't know, 45 minutes into the movie for an hour.
Shy: Yeah. And just to get a name like Rachel vice, I felt like she would just be in it more, I guess, but also hear again soon.
Julia: Yeah. I also. Plays characters that have American accents. She's not American. She's one of the ones where I'm just like, like, I know that you're speaking with a fake American accent, but it sorta sounds cute.
And I love it. So I know that black widow takes place after captain America. And so, you know, civil war and it was, it was originally slated to be released in may of 2020. And so some critics argue that the releasing of this film after. We know that Natasha dies in the end of end game was just deployed to elevate Florence Pew's character.
In the after credit scene, we see Contessa, the V contestant, Valentina Alegra Fontane. It's a mouthful. Um, and of course, platelet Julia Louis Dreyfus, who I love. Um, and so we first saw her in Falcon, winter soldier, and we've had, we had this conversation when we recorded it about how she was supposed to be like.
That was an Easter egg, rather than a reveal. And so there, as you mentioned, they talked about. A couple of times. And there was like so many references to client throughout the movie. It was just kind of ridiculous. And just to refresh everybody's memory, Jeremy Renner plays Hawkeye and he is from Modesto.
Not everyone. When we went and saw the movie, not everyone stayed through their credits for the final final scene. I think it was maybe seven
Shy: hours. How do people not notice stay through the end? I don't think there's ever been, not an end credit other than end game, which, but it was still like a Easter egg.
And thing, but not like credit credit scene.
Julia: Yeah. There's like only seven of us who did. And I was like, are you kidding me? Like, we're going to get something good. I just know we're going to get something good because like, we're going to get something good. And so then the final scene happens and, you know, throughout the movie Flores, he was characters.
Like I would've liked to have a dog. And so we see that shoots the dog or whatever. So I like, like, can we talk about that final scene? Like did. I made an audible noise and irritated the person next to me. 'cause I literally was like,
Shy: I I'm confused. I'm not well, okay. Yeah, no, I am confused. I'm confused about.
The plan is here because obviously we know who Clint is. He's another Avenger and, and Yelaina knows that he and Natasha were best friends. So it's only hearsay, I guess, on how she died. Like, how do they think that it's Clint's fault that she died? Like, there's going to be some hard heart conversation.
Like your sister tied me up and wouldn't let me sacrifice myself. So she sacrificed herself is going to be I'll go ahead.
Julia: It really is kind of like how it feels like a number one. Fuck you Marvel for doing that to Clint because that's not cool because he's been so late. He's just been so solid throughout the whole thing, since he's first showed up to like to have Julia Louie.
And I understand like her character is not the best human, so she's gonna frame it in a way to make, to get the results that she needs to get. But what's the intention. What's the intention. Why make Clint the target that doesn't make any sense. And it makes sense to me either.
Shy: I wondering if they somehow brought Natasha's body back from.
What was, what could they never delirium, but she well, did show show her to return the stone. Yeah. And I did. He wasn't able to be like, Hey, red skulls. Nice to see ya. Do you mind if I take my friend's body
Julia: with me, remember me from when you tried to take over the role
Shy: that must've been a conversation. I hope that it shows up in what if, because although it probably won't, I don't know.
I don't know if we're ever going to know what happened there, but, um, Yeah. Is her body still on the planet or is it in Ohio or aware? What did he do? Was
Julia: that, where is that grave site? Number one, I assumed it was
Shy: Ohio just like based on, because that's where they were when they were doing.
Julia: Which is an Ohio
Shy: random America, but also like did her family, her family, I mean, you know, get blipped to like, cause, cause they, cause Avengers were like adamant that she didn't have any family.
So did she not have any family because the three of them got blipped or do they honestly not know about that?
Julia: I wonder if Clint knew, I wonder if she can fight it in Clint in that way. I feel like if anybody knew it would be Clinton.
Shy: Yeah. Even he was like, he didn't say anything when they asked if she had any family.
So I don't know what the situation is there. Or, you know, Natasha was a spy. Maybe she kept it from all of them. And Clint doesn't really know about that part of her life at all. So who knows? I, well, I guess we're going to find out hopefully in Hawkeye, but. Oh, we'll see. I have a lot of questions now.
Julia: So what are some of your questions just about
Shy: what is the intention?
Like you said, the intention of Valentina saying that Clint was the person that killed Natasha or was responsible for her death where Natasha's body is. Like, I feel like the whole conversation between Yelina and Clint is going to be like big drawn-out fight that could have been stopped with like one conversation.
But I'm sure the fights will be awesome. It would be, it'll be fun to see. So yeah, I didn't have a lot. I have a lot of like, where are they going with this particular thing?
Julia: I still need to know how the contest fits into all of it. Like, I still don't think I have a firm grasp on that. And granted, I don't read the comic books.
I don't know if she's in the comic books and people know how she fits, but it's just so interesting how she sort of is like a Medline. But she's the Medlar that no one knows anything about, but she's still like, she can control shit. She's supposed
Shy: to be like the bad Nick fury, dark vendors or thunderbolts or something to that effect where she's collecting superheroes.
Okay. But to what end. Because we know she has us agent. We know she has the Elena. Um, I don't know who else she's got to look like to, by beginning of the task master, she might be getting ghost who knows like where it goes from that movie.
Julia: So like, I do love how she's like, I need a raise. The Elena's like, I need a raise girl.
We all need a raise. It really bothers me how much criticism this movie is getting, because I feel like people are not necessarily. I guess to me, it feels like it's highlighting the female plight in the sense of like, you're assuming that this movie is garbage and that she's trying to be a pop feminist icon, but really the, her story starts in, you know, as before 1995, like this is a theme she's been dealing with her entire life.
Even when you go back to Ironman two, we don't really get a lot of her, but she's presented as Natalie and that one. And so clearly there's something about it. And then when Nick Fury's debriefing about. Uh, iron man and whether or not he should join the team. Like, again, she's like agent Romanov and there's this very coldness about her, but she's very insightful.
And so to me, The criticism just feels like another sort of lack of understanding of what women go through when you haven't been a person who's struggled in a career of some kind or just struggling to exist in a, in a dominant world that doesn't necessarily carve out space for you. I always have to come at
Shy: it like, am I being too.
Like do, I might just cheering this on and want it to succeed. So I'm mad at anybody that says otherwise about it because I really want it to succeed. And they're giving fair criticism and I'm being too critical of them or, or are they being harsh because it's not the viewpoint that they're used to seeing.
And I'm right. And they're
Julia: being sure it's yeah, that's a good point. Like the scene where they're in the plane and the David Harbour's like, oh, what did you get your period again? Which one? I fucking hate those jokes. Stop it already. Yeah. Like let's put a period. Pain emulator on you and see how well you handle that shit.
They would not, they would not. And then, and then for you Elena, to be like, no, they took out all of my bits. I have none of those things that can happen. And I read somewhere, I forget which article I read, but I was like, I'm not putting that in here. And here I am talking about it. The article kind of was flippant or the article was critical and made it their opinion was that it was sort of a flippant way to ask.
The horrors of like forced sterilization into the film. And, but we know that we know that she's gone. They've all gone through for sterilization because there's an, I forget which one of the 30 million Marvel movies that Natasha in, she makes a comment about how that's part
Shy: of the process. So women apparently have the only two options is they're considered a monster.
If they cause that was Natasha's thing, she said, I'm a monster. And I think there was a lot of. Push back on Josh Sweden for that line, because like, if you can't have a baby that shouldn't make you a
Julia: monster
Shy: first. And I say that as a person who has had a baby, like does, because you have, you can't have a baby or don't want to have a baby.
Or are just, aren't able to have a baby, like should not make you a monster, or you have to like joke your way through it. And I, and yelling, and it shows the joking part, which I feel like is a better coping mechanism than considering yourself a monster. So I guess we just can't win either
Julia: way, right.
Because you know, in this situation they don't have a choice. And so how are you going to deal with it and leaning towards comedy feels a little bit better. Did that
Shy: horrify you good? It should have point to horrify you because guess what? That shit happens all the time, all the time.
Julia: I'm still to this day, that shit is happening to little girls everywhere.
And my little girls, I mean, anybody under the age of 18, so like, Yeah, we need to be talking about it because now you have, like we talked about in, I forget which recording we did at this point. Cause we talked for hours at nauseum about all these things, but that, you know, when, when Natasha and Clint are fighting about, who's going to take, who's going to make the ultimate sacrifice so they can get the soul stone, you know?
And she's like, she literally has, you know, implied throughout every. Movie she's been in that she doesn't have family or she's blatantly said it, she doesn't have family. So it makes more sense for her than Clint because Clint's got three kids and a wife and, you know, not that family is the end all be on the only reason why you should, should, should, should survive.
But her mentality of being a monster and not being able to. Do these things that we, as women are assumed we should want to do is, you know, puts her in a better position to make that sacrifice. So like now my position on that scene, like changed a little bit because of seeing her in this solo film now it's like, does she die?
Feeling like she wasn't worthy of anything? Like, cause that's heartbreaking because she totally does like, no girl, you. I just wanted you in the hook to be together. That's all I wanted.
Shy: Well, I mean, he turned himself into professor Hulk, so that wasn't really going to be happening
Julia: anyways. Also true. Keep it green.
Shy: They would rather sit in radiation for six months and talk about their feelings,
Julia: right? Where, so how does Yulaina fit? This is my question. How does Yelaina fit into the next phase of Marvel? Like we kind of a couple of conversations ago, we were like, is she going to take up the mantle of black widow? But obviously not since she's like demanding a raise from the Contessa.
Shy: Yeah, I don't, I don't really know right now. I'm kind of happy not knowing and finding out what's going to happen as you know, news comes in speculating, but I don't, I don't know anything right now. I have no idea. I just know she's going to be in the Hawkeye moot or hot by a show. So I guess we'll find out in like
Julia: four months.
I hope so. I'm looking forward to that. So for people listening and who haven't seen the movie, I don't understand what you're waiting for and why you're listening to us. If you haven't watched a movie, it's why I genuinely loved just how David Harbour played his characters. Like it was just, I thought it was so much fun.
And then I loved how he was kind of. Yeah, we're a family, we're a family. And then they bust him every fucking family. Like that was fake.
Shy: I think he wanted it to be real too though. I think they all wanted it to be real. And that's part of why it's so
Julia: sad to Lawrence Pew's line about how she spent three years of her life, the best three years of her life.
And they weren't real and she didn't know it was fake. Oh, my God that broke my heart at sex. Yeah, I can imagine. And then to go from this loving environment to whatever the hell the red room is. Oh my God.
Shy: They've given us glimpses. I can't remember what movies they've been from though. Like, uh, her shooting guns and doing ballet.
And they're like just showing that how strict and strenuous and demanding the red room is. I wanted to kind of know what they meant by cycling through the red room, because they mentioned it a couple of times and, and the mom. Malina's character said that she had cycled through the red room four times before she was even that before Natasha was even born or something like that.
And I'm like, well, what does that mean? What does it mean to cycle through the red room?
Julia: Yeah, I guess I didn't really. Because I've only seen it once. I try to watch things multiple times before we record about them, but I didn't have the opportunity to do that. So I remember her saying that, but I guess I didn't pick up on it.
Like I didn't let it sink in. And to your point about like the flashbacks or she's mentioned ballet and they did sort of do some imagery about her doing ballet. None of that, like the red room we got glimpses of now. They were doing martial arts. So it's interesting to sort of, when you take into account how she recounted the small amounts of times, she recounted her experience and to see it compared to what they're, how they're training these women.
Now, I think just demonstrates the evolution of just human nature and the planet and the world and the society in which we live on a global scale. Was there, did you jump on any of the boards this time or did you kind of wait. Honestly, I just haven't had time.
Shy: Yeah. I wanted to, I wanted to, I haven't had time, but also I kind of try to avoid it because I knew it's going to be a male dominated voice.
They didn't really want to hear. Uh, if I was going to find a board, turned it up up upon, I wanted something that was more female oriented. Um, but most of the comments were
Julia: like, oh, did you see their bullets? Oh, there's some closeups with their butts. You bring up a good point though, because there isn't a lot of space.
I think the, I think w I think it was disappointed by the Atlantic review because it was literally the only female reviewer I found. In print online, um, so easily, right? It was within the first 20 hits. When I type into Google black, you know, critic reviews of black widow. She was in the top. And I guess I felt like because there are so many male voices in discussing the world of Marvel that are so dominating to finally find a female byline.
I was just like, oh man. We don't agree. We don't agree. You can disagree with people. Yes,
Shy: yes. You can. For the most part, as long as you're not like, you know, talking about rights as human beings,
Julia: our opinions about black widow can be different when we. Have these sort of female-centric films, do you think it did challenge sort of that concept because wonder woman, you know, she's in a heel.
I mean, from the jump wonder, woman's been basically an abating suit and heels and. You know, Catwoman also is a very sexualized character. Um, and I understand these are DC characters, but I thought it was refreshing that their costume, like they were in sturdy boots that you could kick acid and they were wearing, you know, clothes that made sense to be like you Laterion, you util you libertarian in the way of like, I might need to.
Grapple down something. So this is what I need. Lots
Shy: of pockets.
Cool. Right. So cool. Right.
Julia: And then just make, cut, making all those callbacks. And then in the end, when she gives it, when Melena gives it to, um, um, Natasha, I was like, you really are sisters. I thought that was really sweet, but I did, I appreciated that it wasn't, it didn't feel like sexualized characters.
It was very, it was very much like we are in. Combat gear because we are in combat.
Shy: Yeah. I thought the choice of having a Natasha and a white costume was an interesting one because I just don't feel like that was a, I mean, I guess based on where they were, they were in the snow. So it made sense, but it's not very stealthy to wear a blindingly white suit.
It looks good on her
Julia: though, but yeah, and I don't think we ever really saw her in any color in general. Like I think in. Again, winter soldier is the one I watched the most. Cause you know, Bucky and Steve, I've got a problem. Um, you know, she's, she's playing, she's playing a different character in that blue suit.
And then we find out and then we realize it's Natasha. Like I think that's the only time I can conjure where she's wearing color. Cause even an Ironman too. She's in all, mostly all black. And then I pulled up infinity war. I didn't watch the whole thing. I was like, I just feel like I need to refresh because I've seen end games so many times and age of Altran comes on on the TV a lot too.
But anyway, again, she was in a lot, it's all black. So the white the choice of wait yes. To your point, she's in the snow, but it was definitely, it felt out of character.
Shy: One thing, one moment that I really loved, um, because with not, you never know, like what. She's being genuine in what part? She's like working and that callback to the first Avengers movie where she is like scared and she's nervous and bad guy.
Monologuing. And then she turns around and goes, thank you for your cooperation. And you realize like, oh, damn, she goes to, just to get an information from him this whole time. I love that callback to this, to this new movie again. And I thought that was a cool, like Natasha move kind
Julia: of pull back to she is a consistently played character.
And still manages to have some sort of growth to her throughout the entire franchise. And I think that's a really cool way to show character development because you know, Steve is kind of the same throughout the whole movie. Right. He's dedicated to good and we have to do the right thing and there, he's not really like.
Shy: I want to say by end game, I feel like he was definitely a different, and I think they showcase that with the fight against himself. Yes. Much of it as a person who has changed. Yes,
Julia: definitely agree with that. But like, I guess in the sense of like, Tony stark doesn't really grow that much, but he does like, he's still a Dick throughout the movie, like, but he, you know, he does get he's on the other side of that coin when it comes to the empathy, then Steve, obviously that's part of the, you know, that's part of the, um, narrative, but for kind of, as the same guy, everyone's kind of similar, like it's all slow growth, right?
Like everyone's doing slow growth throughout the entire franchise, but. Natasha's growth is so slow and so steady. And so selfie because she is so guarded and so protective of who she really is, that when we see her in this film, it was kind of like, okay, there you are, girl. Got you. Good. Thank you for showing us a little bit more, but she's still guarded.
Like I said earlier, Scarlett Johannson just really fi in it, just, this is going to be mean, or it might not be it. Just take it how you want watching her and iron man too, because I was like, I have to remember where she started before we talk about this and I'm thinking, how the fuck did she manage to keep this job?
It wasn't that great. She wasn't as strong. She wasn't as solid, but like, Robert Downey Jr. Was like, he's he was Tony, start from the jump, like one to two all the way through end game. Like he was solidly in that character and totally knew who he was black widow starting from, you know, Natasha Romanov when she was Natalie something or other to black widow, like the growth that Scarlett Johannson made as an actor in that character is so crazy.
Hi. And now I, now I'm like, I'm glad they stuck with her because if I was in charge, I'd have been like, we need to recast this person. She's not strong enough. She's not playing this character strong enough. You know, she's not really settled in. And then to see her so settled in, in this film was just like, she owned it.
This is her, this is her character. This is the person she knows how to play and she's going to crush it. I think
Shy: when we first get introduced to. Natasha too, is that she's supposed to be the sex pot. Like she's supposed to be the seducing intern type situ like person. And I don't know if that was necessarily the, who she was trying to play as Natalie.
Cause we find out later, of course she's not Natalie. And then when you find out she is like, uh, agent Romanov, the D even then in, in, in the first movie that she's in what iron man to right. That I feel like there was a big difference already from when she is not only to, when she turns into like shows herself off as her true personality.
Julia: Yeah. That's a good point. Maybe I'm just being a judging Magento person. Cause I'm just like, ah, I can live, I take it early with scar Joe. Well, I,
yeah,
Shy: I mean, she's obviously in, especially in that time period, one, was it 2009, 2009 to the peak of.
Yeah. Like I just remember, I remember being like so sick of her at that point and being like,
Julia: oh, this wasn't, she like married
Shy: that I wish I had.
Julia: Was she married to Ryan Reynolds or Gosling? She was married to somebody who's married to someone else now, or they were seriously dating. I think you're right.
Shy: I think she did marry Ryan Reynolds. I totally forgot
Julia: about that. And she had released, yeah,
Shy: she was singing. It was like post a lost in translation and everybody was in love with her. And I was just like, I think, I think not only was I like this kind of stick of her, I was also very jealous of her. I wanted to be living the life that she was living.
Yeah, but I can, now I can appreciate her fantastic job with, with the role that she was given. Yeah.
Julia: I going to echo the jealousy because I think she and I are similarly age.
Shy: I think she's like 38 or something,
Julia: 30,
Shy: like a year younger than me, 37, 36, something like
Julia: that. So I think she and I are either the same age or she might be like, I think, I actually think we're for the same year, if I'm, if I'm remembering.
So there was that point for me. Cause you know, I didn't want to live here after high school and I wanted to go and pursue some sort of creative something rather. And so being stuck at home with a child with me having zero employability skills, employability skills, employable skills, um, watching somebody, you know, have the career that you wonder if you could have had it.
And it takes a lot of bravery to go out and. Audition and, you know, go out there, put yourself out there because there was a lot of that sex symbol stuff that she kind of got shoved into. And that was just typical of Hollywood period. But I feel like it was really bad in the early aughts as we are seeing now, as we reflect upon how everyone treated, Brittany Spears, Brittany, wasn't the only victim of that.
It was every beautiful woman in Hollywood who made. Talented or not. It didn't matter to echo you. There was a, there was a point of jealousy there too, but I was just wearing a collar and Joseph and I'm just like, girl, he's so basic. Like I look like white boy,
Shy: fucking funny. I'm not think he's cute. So cute.
Julia: Really looks like he could be a chat.
Shy: Yeah. But he's not. Cause he's funny. I
Julia: know he is smart. Yeah, he went to Harvard, but he also is actually smart because sometimes people go to Harvard and you meet them and you're just like, you went to school. Do you ever watch crazy ex girlfriend? No. You keep telling me to, so I'm like, I gotta make, I
Shy: gotta make a joke about people.
Cause she always says. Yale or something I can't remember right now, but yeah, that was the
Julia: callback. That's funny. I do love him on weekend update and I love the dynamic that he and Michael Che have on an update. And I'm just like, this is such a good combination because some of the better combinations I think in our lifetime have been like, you know, Amy and, and Tina were really good.
And then Amy and Seth were really good. And then. I honestly can't remember any other co-host Seth had besides Amy and, and then they tried to do Cecily strong with, I think Collin Joe's too at one point, and that didn't really work well. And then they brought in, um, Michael Che to be his cohost. And that dynamic is so.
Generally good. They do a bit. Have you seen them when they do this at Christmas time where they're like, we wrote jokes for each other to say, and we didn't like read them beforehand. They
Shy: didn't watch the latest one.
Julia: It's so funny because Michael changed roles, um, Colin Jos, and it was like, you know, he just chose him on his Instagram and, you know, canceled.
Joe's she's a racist, but it's not, he's not serious. Like it's part of. Um, so a lot of his jokes will be centered around like Colin saying something that you're just like. Confirms Michael's bit about being like racially print. It's really funny. And I'm realizing that it might not be funny to people who are listening and don't know their dynamic and it might sound more apply anyway, back to the topic at hand, which is black widow.
Do you think it was a disservice to release the film to cause they delayed it obviously. COVID no one could figure out their shit about how to release films until about six months ago. But do you think it did a disservice to their franchise to like, have it come out after Falcon? Because I feel like there was a point where they could have tried to release it before Falcon and winter soldier.
I mean, not in movie theaters, but it early access.
Shy: I mean, I I'm of the mind that Marvel movies, if it's a movie needs to be on the big screen. So I am glad that they waited because. I'm one of those people, even if they had released it on, um, early access on Disney, plus I would have gone back to the theaters to watch it in big screen because I just.
The way that they filmed, even if they did like low-key or, um, maybe not fucking winter soldier or one division, but I feel like, look, you would've done well, like on
Julia: the big screen too. Yeah. I know that the Marvel was like, we had to make sure that all of our TV shows were, had a cinematic feel, but low-key had the most cinematic field out of.
Shy: It was a really beautifully shot too. So I feel like that would've done really well on the big screen, but I just loved seeing, I think also because it's become a tradition at this point, like a Marvel movie is coming out. Okay. We're going to go to the movie theater and we're going to watch it.
Julia: Yeah. I actually trolled the wiggle wiggle the Regal website because I had gotten an email saying, oh, tickets are on sale.
And it's like, sweet. I got to get in there. Cause I don't want shit tickets. I don't want shit scenes, but they weren't actually on sale. They were going on until the next day. So I normally wake, I trained myself to wake up at five 30 in the morning. Trust me. It's not easy. It's very difficult. I'm so irritated.
I've done this to myself, but if I'm going to eat breakfast and work out every day, it's the only way it's going to happen. Woke up at five 30 rolled over, picked up my phone, bought tickets. Nice. But I think I freaked out the lady next to me because I startled easily. So a lot of times I would like jump and I think she was getting frustrated.
So it was like note to self next time by the seat on either side of me as well. Maybe
Shy: that's probably a good way also just like basic COVID safety precautions at this point too.
Julia: Yeah. Well, at this point, movie theater. Actually, yeah, they were at full capacity. It was a sold-out movie theater. There was not a free seat in that theater.
And that stressed me out. My son and I had a conversation. I was like, I'm telling you right now, I'm emotionally preparing and I'm warning you. Now, the theater is sold out and you know, he was like, okay. So we, we didn't end up getting snacks. Cause he was like, I just want. It's like a fair, because you have to live with me who is terrified of every communicable disease, whether it's reality or not.
Shy: Yeah. I always check right before, um, the showing like to see if the seats next to are sold out or not. So that's, that's a good point about not getting snacks. If there's a sold out show, that would be, I'd be very uncomfortable
Julia: too. I understand that. We went up to Thursday night. Sorry, go ahead. Oh, no, I
Shy: think we went.
I don't even remember now when we went, but I also feel like it would have been funnier, I think, to see a Val first in black widow, but I don't really feel like it did her a disservice. Have her in that for, in, in
Julia: Falcon and winter soldier first? No, because she's still mysterious in both one. Like you can't, you can't figure like she identifies who she is, but you can't figure out what her goals are like with some of the end scenes, like the bonus scenes, like when, like what's his face.
My God.
The one who ruins everything. What is his, um, Gomorrah's died from.
'cause, you know, sometimes there'd be ends and credit scenes with Danlos and you're like, oh, it's clearly we know what he's up to like that is or it just always makes sense in some way, like, you know, it doesn't make full sense, but you know where it's going. And for me, this was like, I have no idea what the fuck you guys are doing other than like, setting up for the next thing, but I can't figure out how it fits.
So thanks for that.
Shy: It kind of feels like her introduction in Falcon and when a shoulder to was funnier. So I'm glad that they did stick with that. I don't know if they filmed it, knowing that Falcon, winter soldier was going to be coming out before black widow or not.
Julia: I don't think so because it was supposed to release in May, 2020.
So I'm thinking it probably filmed in 2019. Black widow,
Shy: right? Yeah. Yeah. So the fall and winter soldier introduction, when we first meet bell, I feel like they filmed that after knowing. Oh yeah. So they made, they punched it up and made it a little bit funnier than if maybe we already knew who Val was.
Right. So I'm not mad about how they have, how they ended up doing it.
Julia: Yeah. She was a lot of, she, there was an element of like, um, fun tone to her and it felt good to winter soldier. Which I love all the gifts on Instagram for tight with it. And it's like them fist bumping. I love it. I need a, I need a life.
I need a hobby. This is not healthy. Well, I just, I don't have anything else to add. Other than I really appreciate that they gave us like this comment about this pop feminist icon. I don't agree with, but I do think that we finally have a female superhero who isn't sexualized and I'm really happy about that.
Shy: She's somebody. And I feel like, uh, there's a good point that Yelena made that Natasha is a killer. But her poster is on the walls of little girls and little girls. I like idolize her as an Avenger, but they don't really know her background. And I feel like. Not relatable because nobody else is going to be an Avenger, but it's like, she's a flawed person, but she still is, you know, trying her best and trying to be a good role model in a good person.
She never loses her art, which I thought was a great call back. And you know, what, if she is a feminist icon then awesome. So who cares if she is a feminist icon? Damn straight. That's good for her then with no hands and doesn't mind,
Julia: right. She just keep doing all of her posing.
Shy: Disgusting it. So funny. I did.
I really did. Like the bits of reality that Yelina would insert into, like, why did you pose like that? Why do you flip your hair back like that? Like, you're just waiting for people to look at you. She's like, I'm not doing that, but she's like, obviously, like, you know, there's an element of that. I liked that she like, kind of cut through the bullshit
Julia: on a lot of that.
And then when you Elena jumps through like something and lands herself in a pose, she's like, ah,
Shy: this Gus thing, I'm excited to see what they do with Florence, Pugh as not black widow, but as like this kind of character. Cause we're definitely going to be seeing her more. She's she's a great actress in general, but she's also like a bad-ass.
So I'm appreciating
Julia: that and I love that she's dating zap the SAC breath. I mean, just so cute. Oh my gosh. It's ridiculous. How cute there. Yeah. I'm interested to see where Hawkeye goes and how often we see her. If we see her, I'm assuming we'll see her. Yeah. And I looked
Shy: at my MDB and she's listed as joining spoilers, I guess.
Sorry. Um, the show, but it kind of. With the direction that a Loki has introduced. I have no idea where anything is going. Like, I, I genuinely do. I have, my mind is like
Julia: blown. Yeah. Yeah.
Shy: I genuinely have no clue where we're going,
Julia: but then all this neither do I, well, I love it. When you stopped by to talk about marble, I just think.
One of the best. And I feel like maybe you're becoming like our resident marble guru, anything
Shy: nerdy. You're like, ah, she's probably into it. Yeah.
Julia: It makes me happy. It's true. If you didn't make it to see, uh, to the theater to see black widow it's available on Disney plus to Disney plus subscribers as always, you can find us on Instagram at pop culture.
Makes me jealous. Thanks for tuning in. I'll talk to you next.
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