Based on a True| 22
Show Notes:
Natalie Katona from To All the Men I've Tolerated Before is here to discuss the Peacock original, Based on a True Story.
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Transcript:
Julia: Hey friends, this is pop culture Makes me jealous where we analyze pop culture through the lens of race or gender, and sometimes both. I'm your host, Julia Washington, and on today's show we are talking about based on a true story, which is a Peacock original. And our guest is Natalie Catona. And honestly, this discussion is a little unhinged, but that's kind of the era we're in right now because I don't know if you've noticed,
Natalie: but the world is a dumpster fire.
Julia: And now here we go to the show
Julia: friends, Natalie Catona is here. And you love it when she's here because you love this duo and she is back because we were talking about based on a true story, Starling, Starling Starling, Starling Starling, Kaylee Cuco, and Christmas Cena. And welcome back Natalie cuz you know we never talk or see each other ever.
Natalie: We haven't horrendously neglected to put one another on each other's podcast because of still comfy or anything. I was like, when's the last time I was on pop culture and when was the last time Jules was on tolerated? I don't know. We do a thing
Julia: every Tuesday. We do a thing every Tuesday and people who aren't tuning in are seriously missing out because damn it, we're funny and
Natalie: smart we're funny and I haven't even been able to do my bits about the men in the submarine who a moment of silence for white male arrogance everywhere.
Julia: Is it, I poor taste to tell people to go listen to our Titanic episode on, on Twitter.
Natalie: Oh, I really wanted to do that compilation of clips that I was like, oh, now they're imploded. That's such bad timing
Julia: for me. There was only one that I found where you blatantly said the audacity of white billionaires.
Julia: And that's the one I loaded for you.
Natalie: Fucking white billionaires. I know it's crazy.
Julia: But let's, uh, let's remind our audience, but based on the true story is about, and you guys, you listen to the show regularly, you know that I pull that shit from Google because we all Google cuz apparently Google is everything.
Julia: Between endless bills, midlife marriage, squabbles, a new pregnancy and mounting work pressures, Ava and her husband Nathan feel like they're watching their lives fall apart. Ava's passion is true crime. So when she realizes that the plumber turned family friend Matt is the serial killer behind a string of unsolved murders in la, she spots an opportunity.
Julia: Ava and Nathan blackmail Matt into co-creating a podcast about his air quotes work, but they quickly realized that collaborating with a killer won't be a cakewalk.
Natalie: Did you think that, that, like when you turned on based on a true story, did you think that they would be in cahoots with the killer?
Julia: No, but I also thought it was very flimsy logic to think that because he wears blue booties in their house and they found a blue booty at a crime scene, that immediately he was, uh, the killer.
Natalie: Yeah. But I honestly thought that they were just gonna be like two bored people who are like, what if we ag at the Christie and solved the serial killer thing and they would be hunting him not in cahoots with
Julia: it. Right. Right. And then, and two, I was like, but how is this different from only murders in the building who also star a podcast about murderers?
Natalie: Cause Selena Gomez wasn't the murderer.
Julia: Right. The New York Times actually felt like this show falls short They, in terms of like what they could do. So if you haven't seen it, FairWarning, as we've mentioned, there's gonna be a lot of spoilers in this episode. Yeah. About this show based on a true story.
Julia: It's only eight episodes, and I actually take issue with that because it is too short for how much they put into each episode.
Natalie: They just ended it and I was like, what do you mean? That's the end. There was no resolution. There was not even like, I guess there was a twist because then like the friend's husband was like, wait, did you kill my wife?
Natalie: And then it ended and I was like, that's where
Julia: we're ending. I don't even feel like that was a, to me, this feels like a mid-season break. Yeah. You know how we used to have this? Because, because the minute, so, so Kaylee Cuco is Ava Christmas Cena is her husband Nathan. And the, and this Google description's pretty accurate.
Julia: Like they're, he's, he's a down on his luck. Um, former Tennis pro. Yeah. He beat Olympian. Yeah. Like he beat some famous tennis person that if you know tennis, like all of that will be interesting to you. Um, and so like, right, like I, uh, if
Natalie: you are a person who follows tennis, I don't know. Look it up.
Natalie: Basically what you just said.
Julia: Well, I couldn't remember who his, like big match was against, and I didn't wanna go back. I didn't wanna go back and watch that episode to like get it again. But I will say this. And so Kayleigh Coco's care, so Ava has these friends and they're all wealthy. Like these people are disgustingly wealthy and like one in particular, her husband is like generationally wealthy.
Julia: Like the grotesquely gorgeous home they live in was a gift. And you know, this house is like 20 million Easy. Yeah. Easily. In la Cuz they're in LA and the, it's a west H it's the west. LA I think is like the west side. He's got some like swanky name, the West Side Killer or something like that. I don't know.
Julia: The plumber. Yeah, the serial killer does. Yeah. And so like one of her friends, so when they come into Ktz with each other, they have these burner phones that they're using. Well, Kaylee Cuco was pregnant at the time of filming the show, so she asked them to write it into the show, which is why her character's pregnant, which I actually kind of fucking loved.
Julia: Yeah. I'm not mad at that. But the minute she loses that burner phone and her friend finds it, it's like, oh, you're dead. We all know you're dying now. Yeah.
Natalie: Right. They can't kill
Julia: the pregnant lady. You're not gonna kill the pregnant lady. This friend is having, like, admittedly having an affair and she's like, hates her husband, and she's like desperate for something.
Julia: So like, clearly she's dying. But that's how the, that's when the show ends. They're just like, oh, we like the serial killer murdered her too, because she's, you know, this link to all the things that could ruin what they're doing. And then the husband comes home and you're just like, that's not,
Natalie: well this happened.
Julia: Yeah. No. Whose blood is that? That's literally what he says. Like, who blood is that? But the reason why I wanted you to be on here to talk about it is because I really found the plumber to be like, to me he would like represented misogyny as a whole. Yeah. In, in a way. And then I also felt like, There's an overwhelming obsession in this country about murder.
Julia: Mm-hmm. And murder podcast. And that's what these people do. So like right, like they sit, they create a podcast to talk to him specifically, and then he lets it go to his head. And he was like, people love me. This is amazing.
Natalie: I'm so good. As always, men cannot handle getting interesting. Yesterday I was a plumber today, a podcast star.
Julia: And it's
Natalie: anonymous. And it's anonymous. It hasn't even, he was, he was over the moon excited with himself and his journey and his claim to fame before they even edited the first episode.
Julia: Correct, yeah. And he hated their cut. So he went in and recut his own and he was like, this is better. Listen to it and tell me it's not better.
Julia: I
Natalie: added, I contacted someone else for intro and outro music, but like, don't even worry about it.
Julia: Like the arrogance of white men, right? Yeah. Yeah. We always talk about the arrogance of white men, the arrogance
Natalie: of white men. They can't handle being interesting. They can't handle one day being a no person, someone that no one knows.
Natalie: Yeah. And then the next day being like, what if five more people know about me? It, it literally just goes to their heads. We see it all the time. Insecure men can't all of a sudden feel a little bit secure without like hitting someone, killing someone. We'll figure out, I guess, eventually why he kills people.
Julia: Assuming they bring it back for a season two, because you know streamers aren't good at, that's what
Natalie: I was like, peacock, this is bold as fuck. Uhhuh on the heels of scandal, Deval you then just give me like a murder show Naly. And I'm like, sure. I like that Kaylee. K, Coco, Coco, Coco. Yeah. I like the flight attendant.
Natalie: The flight attendant's so good. It's so good. And then it's like eight episodes and we're gonna tell you nothing
Julia: essentially. It's literally all buildup. That's all it is. Uhhuh like and then, and then the end, the way it ends, it's like this isn't an ending, this isn't not. Mm-hmm. This is not where you end a season.
Julia: Like this is, you guys did not do a cliffhanger. Right. You basically ended the episode and then didn't give us an episode nine. Mm-hmm.
Natalie: But
Julia: okay. One of the things I dmd you about when we were talking
Natalie: about this was. I
Julia: think that the show's creator is clearly satirizing the murder obsession our country.
Julia: Has
Natalie: Google agrees with you?
Julia: Did they call it a satire? Is that what I read?
Natalie: Yeah, I, well, no, that's what I read earlier today when I was looking at the New York Times and my arch nemesis, Roger Ebert had opinions that I didn't read. And you looked
Julia: at Roger
Natalie: Ebert? I didn't. I accidentally clicked a link and I was like, not you not, you're
Julia: not the one I wanted.
Natalie: But no, I think it was supposed to hit as a satire, I think. Uh, as we know, I think satire is dead because none of us can handle it anymore. Uhhuh. Uhhuh. So it doesn't punch hard enough to be satire. It's not best in show. Right. It's not drop dead gorgeous. It's these people are so kooky cuz they love murder.
Natalie: We're at a convention.
Julia: Yeah. It was like, they really, really were like, we want to make a statement about our country's obsession with murder and making money off of murder. Mm-hmm. Of someone else's murder. Because like, you know, word on the street is Ryan Murphy's gonna hold you do a whole murder franchise now.
Julia: Like he's got Mendez's brother, uh, series in the works or some shit like that.
Natalie: I will watch the fuck out of that.
Natalie: I will, I hope we're bringing back what was the one where they did Gypsy Rose and her mother? Um.
Natalie: The the, um,
Julia: oh, I started my period yesterday, so my brain's a little wonky.
Natalie: I loved it. And they were supposed to do another crime along that, like the act? Yeah, the act. So they were gonna do a whole, an anthology series about didn't Patricia Arquette win an award for that? I'm pretty sure. And if she didn't, it's stupid if she didn't.
Julia: It's right. It's Patricia Arquette, right? It is. Okay, go ahead, sorry.
Natalie: So they were gonna do an entire series of these murders where people had like basically pulled off some sort of con mm-hmm. And then it led to someone getting murdered. Mm-hmm. And back when I was a person who consumed my favorite murder every day I would tell people that the Gypsy rose murder is my favorite murder.
Natalie: It's a perfect
Julia: story. It is wild to me that you have a favorite murder. Okay. Well,
Natalie: it's my favorite and it's a perfect story. And in some places, maybe a hero's journey. Oh, interesting. Do you, do you not know the background of the Gypsy Rose story?
Julia: Well, when the act came out I did. And now we've had so much stuff happen since then that I'm like so much smarter.
Julia: Yeah. You're gonna have to refresh my memory. So
Natalie: Deedee, I hope I'm That's right. Yeah. I'm pretty sure that's right. Yeah. Gypsy Rose's mother. Mm-hmm. Had moon chows by proxy. Right. And she used to make gypsy sick. Right. And basically get her to the point where she couldn't walk Right. Throw her in a wheelchair.
Natalie: Right. Put her in some ridiculous wig and then like towed her around Disney World basically getting like free handouts on the fact that like she was stunting this girl's throat. Yeah. And then that girl hit puberty. And she met some boy on the internet and she's like, what if I'm a girl who fucks now?
Natalie: And she fucked him in a movie theater and then she was like, let's kill my mom. And honestly I was like, how else is that gonna play out? Right? So it is my favorite. The sel, the Selena episode of my favorite murder still makes me cry cuz the movie didn't cover nearly as much of the context. Dang. Which
Julia: leads us into, when these people go to Crime Con mm-hmm.
Julia: She literally runs into somebody. Who also has the same favorite murder as she a she being Ava. Yeah. So like that's a real thing. Like you are not an outlier. Like people have favorite murders.
Natalie: There's a whole podcast called My Favorite Murder. It was in fact the first podcast I ever listened to. The reason why I remember, I remember this
Julia: podcast because I, so I didn't realize it was a crime True Crime podcast because some of the people that I knew that listened to it don't even dabble with true crime at all.
Julia: So it was just, I just assumed it was like a comedy podcast. So it
Natalie: is, it's a comedy podcast that also discusses murder. Oh Jesus. And by two, um, Comedy writers, Georgia and Karen,
Julia: and I was, I was so late to this game. As you know, I curate a world of rom-coms and light drama.
Natalie: Right. Because the pandemic made me stop listening to it.
Natalie: I was like, I actually can't be alone in this house every day. And also listening to brutal murders. Correct, correct, correct. And then laughing about morons three seconds later. Right. It's a podcast. It's still going on. People loved it. I went to it live. It was the first podcast I ever listened to. I listened to it because a friend needed someone to go to the live show with them.
Natalie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We went as a group. I fell in love with them. They're very funny ladies. And I listened every day while I did my bullshit work in my bullshit office and, and look at me now. Now I'm a podcast star. Just like that serial killer on Peacock.
Julia: Right. So do you think that the sisters on the show that are played by June?
Julia: Raphael Lan? Yes. That they're based on
Natalie: the My Favorite Murder girl? Yes. They are direct, I believe, when, so when June Diane and her friend Jessica, oh, what's her friend's name? Jessica St. Clair. Yep, you're right. Absolutely. Jessica St. Clair. Go ahead. They have an amazing podcast too. But when I, I am in love with June Diane.
Natalie: Yeah, she's fantastic. But those two sisters, June Diane and Jessica St. Clair, when I watched the first episode and they popped up, I went, oh, my favorite murder
Julia: parity. Okay. I figured they were parroting somebody. For people who haven't seen the show yet, they're the Lemp Pinski sisters and like. They're making a big deal at the crime Con and they have this big reveal.
Julia: So, so, so Ava and Nathan and Matt are essentially like, this is our competition because look at how much money they've made off of reporting on crime and on murders. And so like, we have to be as big as them. So they go for quote, research to Crime Con. Well, while they're at Crime Con, they discover that they have, that the Lapinski sisters have this huge twist.
Julia: That twist being the most recent murdered girl's mother. Yeah. And, and a survivor.
Natalie: Oh, the fake survivor. When he tried to be like, she's a fake survivor, I'm like, I'm into that though. If she is, in fact a fake survivor wrote a fucking book is on this podcast or whatever, I go, that is also just like one point into like how fucked we
Julia: get about this.
Julia: Correct. Correct. And when he confronts her, So I, okay, so my theory is, is he isn't actually the murderer. My theory is, is that he's just some guy who gets off on whatever he is getting off on, and they made this loose assumption that because he wears blue booties in their house, he must be the murderer because anyone who's ever had any work done in their house by anybody who's in a trade, they fucking wear blue booties in your house because they wade in nasty shit.
Julia: So they don't wanna bring that into your home. Yeah. Like that's, I can't tell you, like the HVAC guy is always like, I know, I'm so sorry. I have to come into your house. I'm putting on the booties. Like, just show me the way and I won't have to like wa, you know what I mean? Yeah. So, so I was like, okay, so that's a, that's a, that's a weak theory.
Julia: Kaylee. Come on, Ava. But I understand you needed something to kick off the show, right?
Natalie: Because they're going broke. Correct.
Julia: Because it is a scary thing in the current culture
Natalie: we live in because Mr. Tennis Pro, the former Olympian or whatever, whatever. Yeah. Christmas Cena, howdy, Christmas Sena. I do love a grumpy Christmas scene.
Julia: And he's, he's actually kind of fucking hot in this show. Like Gray is good on
Natalie: him. I love a grumpy Christmas scene and I always have. Yeah, but he, he's an injured pro tennis player, which is why he's giving lessons instead of playing the circuit. I don't know. Right. And, and so they demote him because someone hotter is giving lessons and they're like, it turns out that all of the trophy wives who wanted lessons from you now wanna look at that.
Natalie: That shirtless dude that gives them cocktails while they're playing. And I was like, yeah, Chris, they're, he's more fun.
Julia: Yeah. I was like, you know what, I was watching Queen Charlotte the other day and I was like, God, damnit George is fucking hot. And then I looked him up and saw what year he was born and I thought, I'm a pervert.
Julia: Well, he was born in, he's like, he was born in like 95 or six or some shit like that, but the, and so I was, we're at le, we're a solid decade at minimum apart, but it still had a moment of like, I'm an old lady thinking this
Natalie: child is not well, and that's between you and your God. I thought that you were gonna tell me that.
Natalie: Keen George and the tennis dude with cocktails were the same person. And I was gonna have to break it to you that I never clocked it.
Julia: Oh no. That man. No, it wasn't. Yeah, it's totally different kid, because I
Natalie: don't perceive men. Yeah. I was like, oh look, A man with an ab, like
Julia: just one
Natalie: app. Just the one ab. So they, he gets demoted and Kaylee, Ava, she can't sell a house to save her life because she desperately just wants to be blowing her client because of pregnancy hormones.
Julia: Listen that client, okay, I know you don't perceive men, but that client is fucking hot and the one that I think is the actual killer, because the whole time she's showing him this house, I was like, How fucking easy would it be for a really gross, heinous person to schedule a home tour? Mm-hmm. As a prospective buyer, because you're a prospective buyer, they don't do any kind of checking on you for that.
Julia: Right. Right. And then you just like show up and fucking murder the shit out of a
Natalie: real estate agent. Yeah. I think that's why my mom was talked out of real estate. She got her license. Mm-hmm. She did like a couple of open houses and then I think someone was like, murderers. And she's like, mm, that's correct.
Julia: Like the whole time I was like, please don't murder a pregnant woman. We cannot be these people. This cannot be where our country is at the moment. Like we have to be
Natalie: better in a sad, in a satirical comedy peacock, I need you to calm down. Correct. Um, my favorite part of the entire show. Is when Ava assumes that her and the hot client are on the same page about wanting to be ba about wanting to bang.
Natalie: And she's like, let's just get it out in the open. And he's like, I'm sorry, what? Yeah. And I was like, no, Ava, she's like, let's rip off our clothes. But also let's talk about it being inappropriate. Yeah. And he's like, I what?
Julia: Right. My, that was a really good part. And also like, I feel like really, because a lot of times we see women with zero sex, sex drive on television, right?
Julia: Mm-hmm. Like that's why Samantha Jones was such a huge, like mind blow because it's like women, we often see women like, Ugh, my husband tried to touch me. Gross. Which can be true, but also there's a subset of women who are very sexual. And, um, as a person who's been pregnant, I can confirm there is a period during pregnancy where you're just like, I.
Julia: Am
Natalie: very, very horny. Yeah, I get it. I get it. I thought that the client was an asshole from the jump because he is very combatant. Yeah. Like she says something and he is like, oh, so you're just the one that they give the like pity houses too,
Julia: which turns out to be accurate,
Natalie: which does turn out to be accurate, which stains.
Natalie: But I was like, well you're the guy who can't get a better real estate agent, so aren't we both fucking morons.
Julia: We're in the same boat. You dip shit. Dip shit. I did really like how the show makes you think that the, the daydream they're having is real. Mm-hmm. I liked that element a
Natalie: lot. Yeah. Cuz they were all very realistic.
Natalie: I was like, I do believe that Ava's friend. Would come over and be like, Chris Masena, put me on your podcast. And he'd be like, no, no, no. And she's like, what if your dick's in my mouth? Mm-hmm. And then he would be swayed and she would walk in and be like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, I believed it. Yeah.
Natalie: Right up until that woman disappeared. Correct. Same,
Julia: same. Every single, every single dream scene. Same. It was like, oh, that's not what you could have kept going and I would've bought it.
Natalie: Yeah. Because it's a cast full of terrible characters. Mm-hmm. Like none of these people are good people. Which I don't know if that's like part of it.
Natalie: I know that like at some point during the, the pandemic, the tide started to turn on true crime. Where we're, where we were like, are we okay? And is this something that we should like? Be making mugs of right. People's mug shots because it's like mug on mug. Right. But, and so like people started really bringing into questioning like whether or not people should be quote unquote fans of true crime.
Natalie: Mm-hmm. Who love murder and have their favorite murder story. I don't know where I fit on that anymore. I'm really on like, I loved Abducted in Plain Sight. That was wackadoo. You know what? Someone should have livestreamed me watching that screaming at the television. I do think that this is one of the most impartial, honest ways to call out flaws in the systems.
Natalie: And at what point did we leave? Like, let victims down and now they're dead. Ooh. Ooh. I like that take. So when you are a Murder podcast focusing on like, I can pinpoint how many times this woman went to her local sheriff's office. Mm-hmm. Went, got a private investigator, took out a restraining order, this, that, and the other, was literally fighting for her life mm-hmm.
Natalie: To get this man away from her. Mm-hmm. And he, and now she's dead. Then I'm like, yes, this is all part of the cause women are being murdered at alarming rates. Women of color, indigenous women, trans women murdered at, yeah. Yeah. Ridiculous rates. And I will say that those podcasts, I think they class it up a little bit when it comes to the merch.
Natalie: Like, I always appreciated that my favorite murderer would only put their faces on their merch and they're like stupid catch phrases. Sure. So like, stay sexy, don't get murdered. Yeah. Um, there are others. I haven't listened in years, so I appreciate that. Like sell merch for your podcast. Podcast is a, podcasting is a.
Natalie: A job. Mm-hmm. Like people should get paid to do it when, when they go to that crime convention, I'm like, I could never just walking around being handed a pencil with like Wayne Gacy on it. No, that
Julia: was wild to me. And then I was like, do I want to Google if this is a real thing? Because do I really want to know?
Julia: And like what will pop up on Google if I Google it?
Natalie: I'm pretty sure it's, it's real. I'm pretty sure that, I mean, Georgia and Karen from my favorite murder used to be the headliners for it a bunch of times. Dang. I don't know if it travels. The last time I was aware of it, I feel like it was in the South. I feel like I thought I could get there.
Julia: Oh, interesting. Interesting. So back, so I wanna go back to like the crime con and um, homie being like there was no survivor. How could there be a survivor? I don't leave survivors. Even in that interaction when he like confronts her about it. Like I think like, yeah, I feel like yes, it's him calling her bluff, but I feel like he's, again, because I don't think he's the murderer.
Natalie: Do you think he killed her though, the survivor, or do you think he just gaslit her until she jumped off a building? I think because that's how I took it. Yeah. That he literally got in her head. Yes. And then she leap
Julia: off the building. That's what I think as well, because I think that she might have been in a similar situation like Ava.
Julia: And Nathan, where it's money's tight, I gotta do something because capitalism in our country is so cruel. Mm-hmm. The survival rate in this country just doesn't feel like it's good. Mm-hmm Because so many people are so dis, is so in distress because of variables outside of their control. So I mean, look at that guy that was on Oprah who said he was in prison for all those years, sold a bestselling novel, got on Oprah and it was all a fucking lie.
Julia: Right. So like in my mind I'm with you, I'm aligned with you. Like he was able to find a crack because when she said I would be able to pick him out anywhere. I was like, no ma'am, you can't because trauma.
Natalie: Because trauma, I can't, I couldn't close my eyes and tell you what some of my ex-boyfriends looked like because trauma,
Julia: you know?
Julia: So I was like, so this is why I think it's not him and why he is such a representation of misogyny, because he's like, I can get away with anything. I'm not murdering, but I'm gonna make people think I am and I can get away with that too. Well, cause some Go ahead.
Natalie: No one can just be chill about something.
Natalie: Right? Right. Like, Hey, we're gonna do an eight part series of you murdering people throughout LA and then we're gonna call it a day. He's like, no. And their one stipulation was, while we are producing the podcast, you cannot murder. And he is like, where's the longevity in that? Which is a great marketing point like,
Julia: Yeah.
Julia: And he keeps envisioning murdering people too. So I think they work really hard to convince you he is the murderer. But you had more thoughts. Go ahead.
Natalie: So then, so he can't be chill about anything. So, uh, then the season also kind of ends with him gathering other serial killers on a no camera video call.
Natalie: Right. And just being like, what if we did a season where you got to take, tell your take? Meanwhile, he's ignoring the fact that the reviews are in Twitter has spoken. No one wanted this. Right. Which I don't think is true. I don't think that that's how the public would take it. I agree. And because Netflix put out the, um, that stupid good looking man that Zach Aron played Dahmer, I.
Natalie: Yes. They put out the Dahmer tapes and people were glued to them. That's all people could talk about. Like did you listen to the Dahmer tapes? No, I didn't listen to the Dahmer tapes. What is he going to tell me? I don't already know. Domer or Bundy? Oh, I think it was the Ted Bundy tapes. I think they put out both.
Natalie: I don't know. We have like a new Ted Bundy and a Dahmer thing every six months. Well, what's interesting
Julia: too is with the Lapinski
Natalie: sisters, they
Julia: bring the mom on and then that was gut wrenching. Mm-hmm. With the most recent Dahmer story that Ryan Murphy did. Um, the families were like, I'm gonna turn my camera off real quick cuz I keep seeing a lag.
Julia: The families were like, uh, nobody asked if we were okay with this.
Natalie: Oh, Ryan Murphy didn't ask permission to do exactly what he wanted to do. That's weird. Right?
Julia: So like that's the other side of it for me. It's like you are digging up the most horrific event in someone's life. Mm-hmm. Forgetting for fodder, for fodder, forgetting there's a ripple effect to that event.
Julia: I can't imagine being the mother of one of the victims and then being asked to be paraded about.
Natalie: No, and I think what's fucked about their podcast and like trolling out the mom onto stage to be like, look, she's still devastated. Mm-hmm. Oh, do you think, um, is that their entire season is going to be that dude?
Natalie: So cereal also? Mm. So you have your podcast where they pick one murderer. Mm-hmm. And they trail his entire murderer career up until trials and discoveries and all of it. And then you have your one-offs where like, today I'm gonna be talking about the Black Dahlia and you're like, I can't get enough about Black Dahlia.
Natalie: What if you say something that they didn't say for sure. Because there is like, you know, the legacy murders. Mm-hmm. Like, so I am a bigger fan of involving people who are okay about talking because my favorite murderer will like rope in. People who have like talk, who have, like Pat and Oswald went to one of their book signings because of his, uh, dis former wife.
Natalie: Mm-hmm. Michelle McNamara, she wrote that book about the, um, the East Area rapist. He has a bunch of names. That's the one I always hang on to. Um, So she wrote a huge book, which I listened to because I'm sick. And Pat and Walt Oswald came and like did the foreword of their book and like talked at one of their book clubs.
Natalie: So I'm like, okay, if people are doing this with consent, but if you're going to someone's house in Alabama, finding someone's sister or mother and be like, do you need five 50 grand? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Everyone in this country needs 50 grand except for those dudes who are at the bottom of the sea. Ding, ding. So it's very predatory.
Natalie: And I feel like that was a really good highlight because you literally do just like sit them on the stage and go, are you still sad? And then they nod, dazed, and then all those people wanna tell you how sorry they are, but how much they love the coverage of your daughter's
Julia: murder. Right. And then to contrast that with when Kaylee, when Ava's in the bathroom and the mom comes out of the stall, Washes her hands asks her, do you know what you're having?
Julia: And she's like, no, we're just going to be surprised, or whatever it was. Essentially, they don't know if they're having a boy girl, and she, and she's, I hope you have a daughter, and it just leaves and you're just like, how the fuck am I supposed
Natalie: to feel about that? How am I supposed to take that? You want me to have a baby that's gonna be in danger every day of her life because your baby was in danger every day of her life up until she was brutally killed.
Natalie: Yikes.
Julia: Sarone. Yikes. Sarone. I did message Mario and I was like, how dare you not warn me about the first few scenes and
Natalie: the noises. Oh yeah, there's, I mean, honestly, like for a comedy, it does hit very gory. Well, but she
Julia: doesn't really talk to you. She
Natalie: sure doesn't. She like, Right, maybe
Julia: one word, one line here.
Julia: So you really don't get a sense of what this serial killers type is other than young girls, young women, because they're all over 18. I think they're all over 21,
Natalie: right? They're not all brunette, I don't think like, I don't think that they've like hit on his like niche, like his little case, which which,
Julia: which, you know, I'm gonna call him fake murder.
Julia: Reveals later that he's like, you guys, I have to murder. Like it's just a thing. Like I need to murder. And I'm like,
Natalie: do you, are you sure? Also, big reveal, he has like a young kid, Uhhuh, and he's a single dad, Uhhuh. So the women go wild and I'm like, you can't trust fucking nobody.
Julia: I also loved, well, I don't know if I loved it as in I appreciate this, this technique, or if I loved it because I hate the way sometimes men see women.
Julia: So the person who Nathan works with at the, um, country club who's like, Nathan, we're demoting you for this 24 year old because he's hot and that's what all the moms want, which is confirmed by all of Ava's friends who are rich and trophy wives. Um, and, you know, uh, murder guy is there and she meets him and they're, and he's like flirty cuz he is good looking and he's mm-hmm.
Julia: You know, got this charm about him. Whatever. And she's like, do you vouch for him? And, and Nathan's like, absolutely not. Like, I barely know the guy, like he's my plumber. Um, and she's like, oh, okay. And then later on they do have like a date because their kids get along. Mm-hmm. That's where the single, that's where the kid thing cut is handy to know.
Julia: And they go on a date. It makes Nathan very uncomfortable. They, they show up at an event together and then later on she's like, uh, your friend that you vouched for, that you put up to date me, is like, no, he told me I was a dead end and like, dumped me. I'm mad at you. And Nathan's like, what? Because that's on the heels of him telling, of Matt telling.
Julia: Ava and Nathan that he needs to murder. He needs to murder because he needs fresh new content for the podcast.
Natalie: Right. He has to murder. He has like a tick that needs to be talked like.
Julia: Right, right. But I thought that was so like, like how he's like, I absolutely do not, this is a, this is a plumber. I don't know him very well.
Julia: And then three episodes later, she's like, the friend you told me to date
Natalie: was a weirdo. And you're like,
Julia: how did you, how did we get
Natalie: there? Honestly, like, do you think that you can sit down with your murder coworker and be like, Hey, boundaries, I can't watch what you're doing at all times, but maybe don't date anyone I know because then I'm going to feel responsible if you murder them.
Natalie: Uhhuh, like just a healthy conversation on like relationship workplace boundaries. Mm-hmm.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah.
Natalie: Yeah. I, and I will say the fact that those two, Ava and Nick, who are just like over in, over their head and manic the entire time, thought that they were gonna have the upper hand mm-hmm. Against a serial killer.
Natalie: I was like, people will be so arrogant.
Julia: Agreed. And again, I go back to the season wasn't long enough. Mm-hmm. Because they did, they told, they gave, they packed. Each episode wasn't paced in a way where by the time you got to episode eight, you felt like it was end of the season. Also, there was enough to bring you back for season two.
Julia: This was, we are cutting it off at the legs and hope to get a season two.
Natalie: Do you think they're trying to time traveler's wife us and trick us into a season two by just being like, we just ended it. What Now? Well ask that moron. Moffitt, how that worked out for him.
Julia: And Moffitt wasn't on the edge of a rider strike.
Julia: We are straight up in the middle of a rider strike, possibly soon to be a actor strike if they can't come to an agreement by June 30th. Yeah, so it's really bold to just kind of be like me.
Natalie: We'll just cut it.
Julia: We'll just cut it. Because we, we learned throughout this series that the podcast isn't doing that great.
Julia: It's got two, which they're like, it's not doing that great. And it's like you have 230 downloads on your first episode. No, that's good. Like, yeah, for an independent podcast who literally has no clout. You did good. Um, but so at Crime Con, um, our good friend Booty Matt, is like, I'm gonna set up a live episode and then tweet out for everyone to come to this ballroom so we can jump to them.
Julia: And that's where he kind of is like, Hey, this is a thing, blah, blah, blah. And everyone's like, what? The shit is happening? This is so fascinating. It does end up blowing up and becoming a big deal. And there's conversations about like, partnering with, um, you know, selling the podcast for like 20 million. So everyone's like, finally money.
Julia: Yay. And then who was it that Tweeted? Jessica Alba?
Natalie: Jessica. There were several of them. One of them was Jessica Alba.
Julia: Um, was like, we're better than this. America
Natalie: was like, this is gross. Kanye spoke in their defense. He was like, I fuck love this podcast. And they're like, it's not good that Kanye is on our side.
Natalie: Correct. Yeezy cannot
Julia: be on our side. I did. I did think that was a nice touch.
Natalie: So they did a couple, I'm not gonna remember them all, but I do remember Jessica Alva and Kanye and honestly, but it does like broach the like question that I think comedians have been up mm-hmm. Against for the longest time where it's like, well, how far is too far for the laugh?
Natalie: Well, how far is too far for the inside scoop on the crime? We all love true crime. We all wanted to hear what stupid Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer or all of them had to say on their stupid little interviews with the Mind Hunter dudes. Mm-hmm. We all wanted Jonathan Groff to stop being in Little Shop of Horse so we could have a third season of mind Hunter.
Natalie: Like these were things we wanted.
Julia: Right, right. Well, not me, but everyone else. Yeah. And it's one of those things too, where it's like, I would love to see like a cultural anthropologist or somebody who studies human behavior look at, and, and it's hard to do, do this without also having to look at the, take the consideration of social media, but there's so many things that happen for
Natalie: clout on social.
Natalie: Mm-hmm.
Julia: And. Who was it? One of these people who committed, committed a heinous crime and like a shooting spree. Literally went live on
Natalie: Facebook to do it. Yeah. Fuck. Well, uh, the mania that you have to be under.
Julia: Yeah. And then, you know, face, this was before Facebook was meta by the way. Um, so then it, and I was working for the government at the time, so it turned into this whole conversation in my marketers group because it was like, not like, what's the culpability of this?
Julia: Um, is, is you? And then cuz there's um, it was a government group. So there's like people from all forms of government there. I don't remember the conversation, but what my takeaway was is like, what, what is happening? Cuz does this qualify as glorification? Do these po Like, I liked your point about. When you do it in a way where everyone's involved and there's consent versus doing it just to make money, which is what these people are doing.
Julia: And based on a true story. Yeah.
Natalie: I'm also, for you not involving the families at all, WikiEd something and reading that on your podcast and like giving your take and being like, fuck that dude. Mm-hmm. And here were the red flags and like, fuck the prosecutor for not doing due diligence to the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Natalie: I'm also all for that. It's just, it's when, when it's usually when your shit is just being created to be your money maker. Mm-hmm. That is when your shit is usually bad and actually nothing that people are gonna want. And they're gonna tell you that you're tacky
Julia: and that's literally what happens in, based in a true story.
Julia: Mm-hmm. And then they have that conversation around the table. I know with them all there about it and her sister is like, I think it's in poor taste. I think it's disgusting. This is awful. And I was like, oh my God, don't murder the sister now.
Natalie: No, he's fucking her. That's one of the reveals. That's one of the reveals.
Natalie: I tried to determine where I would fall on the, would I listen to it like Spectrum because then it's like Spectrum. Mm-hmm. Because then it's like, because then it becomes the Johnny Depp Amber Hurt thing where it's like, well I can't escape it. So I guess I'm turning Vanderpump rules back on for the first time in five years.
Natalie: Yeah. Cause Sandoval is the only thing that people wanna talk about. I don't wanna be left out. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I guess I'm going to the ERAS tour because I don't wanna be left out. Like Yeah. You know, we're pack animals at heart, so I was like, would I listen to it just a, to see if they were doing a good job?
Natalie: Mm-hmm. B, C, what the spin was gonna be because like, They keep telling each other that at the end of it all, once they make their money, they're turning him in. Right? And I'm like, okay, he's gonna kill you and take all of the money. That's
Julia: literally what I
Natalie: thought too. That's
Julia: literally what I thought too. I mean, like, I don't think he's the murderer, but I was like, you are comp, you're making a deal with somebody who appears to have some kind of weird impulse control.
Julia: Um, and it's like very, very, very frustrating because he is getting off on the fact that you guys wanna have a podcast with him. But I don't think he's the murderer.
Natalie: By the way, you could have done something Mind of a Murderer and have it be a fictional podcast. Like we have fictional narrative podcast, right?
Natalie: Where it's like, it could have been, um, the murder version of War of the World, where you never say whether or not it's real. Mm-hmm. You just have a dude talking like he's killed a bunch of people. Maybe it sounds like this murder that's currently going on, maybe a couple of key details are changed. So you could be like, is it fiction?
Natalie: Is it real? Mm-hmm. Do the cops have it wrong? Do we have it wrong? And it probably would've gone off better. I'd listened to that podcast. Yeah.
Julia: And it's interesting because his disposition, I don't know, I, oh, to me he doesn't come across as a person. Like, I don't think a serial killer is gonna be the person who's like, yes, let's do a podcast about my profession.
Julia: I think
Natalie: a serial about my murders.
Julia: Mm-hmm. I think a serial killer is gonna be like, like, because with all the serial killers, you don't know that they're serial killers until somebody finally puts it together in a way that is like, um, like, uh, oh my God, I can't believe we never saw. Because they're always charming.
Julia: They're always nice, they're always kind. They're always people. When you interview people who knew them, it's always like, I can't believe that person was so sick in the head because this is what they did kind of stuff. And here's this guy who's like, They present him as charming, but I don't think he would.
Julia: I, I don't know, maybe I'm delusional, but I don't think that a serial killer would've been like, oh my God, you figured me out. Yes, let's do a podcast together.
Natalie: So I think you're wrong, and here's why. Okay. And it's because you're on the periphery. Yes, I am. You're aware that the Zodiac killer exists, but you do not know what the Zodiac Killer like did so back in the day
Julia: No, I know what he did, but you can tell everybody,
Natalie: but like back in the day, serial killers would like literally write into the newspapers and they'd be like, on the eve of the 14th of the seventh month on the New Moon, I'm going to murder maybe four.
Natalie: Maybe three. And then you just get like cryptic little clues. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because the thing about the thing that we have been led to believe and to be taught about serial killers is they're not. These people who are committing a crime and then going into hiding, they very much, they are the person.
Natalie: Yeah. Well, and they are very much the person who like buys you the perfect Christmas gift and then tells you the very next day, because they want people to know they're accomplishment. Interesting. So one, one-off murderers. Mm-hmm. Running for the hills, like bleaching their whole house. Panicking serial killers are like, oh, if only people knew how smart I was.
Natalie: Mm. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. It's, it's an ego thing. Hmm. Which,
Julia: this guy's got a lot of it. Mm-hmm. Big time.
Natalie: Now, I'm not a scientist or a psychotherapist or any of it, but every True crime podcast, every fictionalized version of the Dahmers, the Bundys, the Zodiacs, all of it. These are guys who like would just love you to ask you to your face like are you the Zodiac killer?
Natalie: And then like tell you how after years and years and years you were able to pull it off. I think it was Annie, let's just quote Annie on the episode. I think it was Annie who told me one time, she's like, I have to watch True Crime, so I'm prepared to be a woman in this world. Oh my
Julia: God. That is so, that is okay.
Julia: Okay. I'm learning so much about myself in this conversation and realizing a lot about my upbringing. Yes. I mentioned earlier that my dad was in law enforcement, so we lived live time for all of those crimes that happened, but also he would like do things and say things that I'm learning aren't. Typical of parents with children.
Julia: Mm-hmm. Because he was raising brown children in a white America. Mm-hmm. Slash he worked in law enforcement. So there's a lot of things that I do with the way that I live that people are always like, that's strange. And I'm like, is it like you don't do that? Like, do you
Natalie: have a death wish? Yeah. So for us, it's like, for us as in the true crime people.
Natalie: Yeah. It's one of those things because they make the jokes about it. Like women be like, Ooh, I hate spiders, but are like, li literally like falling asleep and like, and then he carved out her thigh and served it to his grandmother for Easter. Mm-hmm. Like, and that's what we're falling gently asleep to. And it's one of those things where it's like, it's almost like math where it's like, if you take.
Natalie: The negative of serial killers existing, and you pair it with wanting to be informed as a woman who has to live in this country, they cancel out your anxiety.
Julia: Uh, okay. That I understand. Because,
Natalie: because you're informed. Yes, because
Julia: so related ish, I had a friend reach out to me who was like, Hey, I'm a little concerned with this whole gun crisis in the country, and I don't think it's gonna get any better.
Julia: And I'm trying to get together a class of women to learn gun safety and how to protect themselves. Not necessarily owning the gun, but just knowing how to use it. And I said to her, I was like, I'm good. My dad taught me. We, I know. I mean, like, I can figure it out on most weapons. Yeah. Like there are some weapons like AR fifteens.
Julia: I don't know how to fucking fuck. I don't fuck with that shit. I don't know how, but you know, if there's a handgun there, I, I know what I'm doing. She did not know that about me and nor does anybody in the audience until this moment. And, but it, but she was like, okay, cool. Um, if you change your mind, let me know.
Julia: And I was like, I'm probably gonna change my mind, because that is like riding a bicycle. Once you understand how to do it, you don't really need to like, I mean, yes, you do need to have a refresher. I'm not saying that. Yeah. But for me, because I, it was the environment in which I was raised, it's one of those things where I'm like, no, I know what I need to do.
Julia: Like that's a thing. I run through my head regularly if something happens.
Natalie: See, and I was raised by nervous white people who are very aware that dangerous lanes could happen, but they have no fucking idea how to not make the dangerous thing happen. Mm. Ava and Nick in the show.
Julia: Yes, absolutely. And Ava thinks she's such an expert because she listens to the show.
Julia: Yeah. And to some degree she is. But the guy still outsmarting her.
Natalie: Well, as you know, I've started diagnosing people at, maybe diagnosing is the wrong term, but accusing people of being future serial killers. Mm-hmm. That I personally know. I'm like, future serial killer. Yeah. Dateline outfit picked and ready.
Natalie: Oh, keep spending time with them. That's fine. Okay. Because I multiple outfits then, right? Because I have all of these like, Red flags. Mm-hmm. In my head where I'm like, are you charming or are you going to wear my flesh?
Julia: Because that's the thing that we have. I do know that, I do know that from True crime because I used to watch 2020.
Julia: Mm-hmm. They're always
Natalie: charming. Yeah. Always
Julia: charming.
Natalie: But now I also think that because we've skewed how we view quote unquote charming, thanks to Big Bain mm-hmm. That now these like nervy types, these like nervy, like, ooh. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The silent sees as I've called them, these just like really silent, angry guys.
Natalie: I'm like, we also have to look out for these
Julia: look. Yeah. Yeah. I actually had, I know you haven't watched Ted Lasso, but I had a conversation with somebody about Nate from Ted Lasso because I was like, that's scarier to me because he is quiet, he's soft spoken. He presents as timid, but presented the chance to be cruel.
Julia: He is
Natalie: cruel. There it is. So if, if he's like real nerdy and he loves doing taxes and he tells your friends that you're so pretty, but then the moment that like you get a raise or something, his gut reaction is to go, your job doesn't even mean anything. Mm-hmm. What are they putting money towards? He will also kill you.
Natalie: Mm-hmm. Because he's mad that you exist. Right. Because in his head you took something from him. Right, right. And like, that's how I think now, is it because of true crime? Is it the pandemic? Is it my own podcast? Who's to say mm-hmm. Who's to say, but I'm honestly, I'm like, oh. I was like, I'm not even mad that that's not, that's how you like, that's how he talks to you and you don't like combat it.
Natalie: Mm-hmm. I'm mad that that's how he talks to you and you don't realize that that's like. Literally reasons why women end up unsnapped. Yeah. You don't know that it's a red flag. It's a Dateline episode. Yeah. Or like enjoy your Netflix documentary. I know. Which exes have the capability. Like have the like soul darkness.
Natalie: Mm-hmm. To kill me. Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna laugh my ass off when they show up and be like, really you? And then they're gonna be mad, but they're gonna be emasculated and they're gonna run away and I'm gonna fight them off. And that's how I'm getting my Netflix documentary and my book deal is when some morons try to break into my house, I'm gonna be like, I always knew it was you.
Natalie: And then they're gonna be mad cuz they didn't surprise me. Mm-hmm. It's like I've been telling everyone it's gonna be you in fact, so let me get your dna and then they're gonna cry and run My God. That's my plan. Okay. Uh, alive on air. Got it. Like, yeah, like I said on Krista Rosa's podcast, fixing famous people.
Natalie: I'm not saying that I'm rational, I'm just saying that this is how I feel. I never cl I never claimed to be rational. I just said that this was my plan. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Julia: Okay, so I know we've already talked about the way it ended, but I have to share with everybody how, what the New York Times thinks of the season finale, cuz I hate it.
Natalie: Yeah. It's a bad finale.
Julia: Uhhuh quote from the New York Times, here we go, quote, at least by the end of episode eight, based on a true story emerges as having a unique voice within the phenomenon of true crime, especially in the era of Hulu's True crime, comedy only murderers in the building. But one of the show's smartest features is how it leaves audiences at the end of season one.
Julia: Like a good flawed podcast. There's a bunch you might wish you could skip over, but it still gives you curious and impatient for, or it still leaves you Curious and impatient for the next episode, given how based on a true story suddenly ends its second season, can only make its true crime dilemma.
Julia: Deliciously worse end quote.
Natalie: Honestly, I don't think the true crime aspect of it is delicious in the way that true crime is supposed to be delicious at all.
Julia: Right. And my issue again with how abruptly they ended it, they really could have done a solid season one, maybe in 13 episodes. Mm-hmm. And that's it.
Julia: It's a limited series we don't need anymore.
Natalie: Yeah. But now, but if it's real hot, we'll throw you a season two like we did the flight attendant.
Julia: Correct. But now you've literally cut it off at what feels like, not a serious finale, but rather a very big cliffhanger because we still have zero resolution from like the bulk of the episodes, with few exceptions that if you don't get a season two, then this TV show is fucking whack.
Natalie: Yeah. I also think we have to touch on the fact, especially at Crime Con, where. You know how I have a parasocial relationship with the entire cast of critical role.
Julia: Yes. And I love listening about it. It makes me happy. Thank you. Yeah, we had
Natalie: a really great episode, uh, today. It was so fantastic
Julia: because sometimes you're like, Natalie hasn't texted him about critical role.
Julia: Should
Natalie: I check in on her? Sometimes it's filler, sometimes it's just Matt telling us lore and that's okay. That's his job. His job is supposed to tell me the history of this family, and it's not his fault. I don't care and I won't retain it. Right. So anyways, I think what crime con also like highlighted is the delusion that some of the true crime population has allowed themselves to live on, where it's like we're helping.
Natalie: Mm, interesting. So a lot of these podcasts do get clout because they're like PO pointing out whole in the system, blah, blah, blah, blah. But now there's so much of it that it's like. Okay. Yeah. Where's your, your GoFundMe? Mm-hmm. Where's the fundraiser? Where, like, where's our actionable item? Right. So now people like get into this crime con and they're like, oh.
Natalie: And they're like wearing their justice for Susie t-shirts or whatever, and they feel like they're helping. Mm. Even though they've never stood in a line, arm in arm with their neighbors walking through a forest. They're like, I'm in it though. I am like, I'm your like friend in arms. Yeah. I'm right here with you.
Julia: Yeah. That's interesting because that's not, that's all, that's really not unlike people who claim to be doing anti-racism work, but all they're doing is writing hashtag say her name. Right.
Natalie: Or blacking out their Instagram photo. Yeah. When
Julia: it's like, well, what are you doing to do real justice work? Are you having conversations with people?
Julia: Are you donating money to the people who are doing work? Like
Natalie: a weird, cool, you bought merch. So what ends up happening is with awareness, once everyone gets on board with being part of the awareness mm-hmm. We just decide we're done. And it's like, yeah, no, I'm aware. Which is why on my podcast I've been telling you guys to like, break up with people.
Natalie: Mm-hmm. Yell at guys at bars, like they're, I'm giving you homework. I'm like, should you? Fight the patriarchy. You get to tell me and then I will send you a friendship bracelet because you are actually a friend in the
Julia: fight. Like Yeah. Cuz you and I have this conversation regularly. It's very frustrating when, when, because you and I have done the work, we are continuing to do the work in ourselves as well as through our shows, but also the work that we're doing within ourselves to be better.
Julia: And then when you spend time with people who literally are like, well I'm just gonna rail against this system patriarchy. But then in I turn around and do things that uphold that system, it's really fucking hard to be in space with them.
Natalie: Right. Well if you closed your eyes and imagined who is the target demographic for actual crime con Yeah.
Natalie: Who's the audience? I
Julia: immediately assume basic white pitches.
Natalie: And what is their, um, socioeconomic level?
Julia: I think that they have more money than me.
Natalie: Yeah. I'm not a scientist or a mathematician and I came with no data and no statistics, but I would bet that you are correct. Mm-hmm. So it
Julia: sees literally everybody that I know that listens to crime podcast white women.
Julia: Yeah. I do not know. And if I'm wrong, and I got some brown and black friends out there listening who do listen to true crime, fucking tell me because that's a data point.
Natalie: I do think it's like, White women's way of being like, we have something too. And by the, we have something too. I mean like look at our trauma too, because again, one of like as a fellow white person, like I see a lot of white people being like, well, we have struggles.
Natalie: And I'm like, yeah. I know. You probably also caused your own struggle. Like you caused all of the struggle for the late. Communities, we colonize
Julia: self-sabotaging, but it's not self-sabotaging because you're literally inflicting it on yourself on purpose.
Natalie: Yeah. Like you can't tell me that you also have troubles if you are a Lululemon seller, like you are playing into capitalism.
Natalie: Like I can't, I can't hear it. Like truly, truly, maybe I was a good choice because I actually dabbled in the true crime realm for a while.
Julia: Yeah. And I feel like I remembered that from when we first started having conversation in early, early on in our friendship.
Natalie: And let's not pretend that I'm like a convert.
Natalie: And I'm like, that's right. It's exploitive. I'm done. Oh no. If there's gonna be a hella good documentary on about the Zodiac killer, when they, when they released who the Zodiac Killer was, and it was just like any old crusty white dude. Mm-hmm. Who looked like your great-uncle. And we knew that that's how it was gonna be.
Natalie: Mm-hmm. But like the lore and the mythos around the zodiac killer, for him to look like a white California raisin, I was upset.
Julia: Well, that's the basic structure of a colonizer too.
Natalie: Yeah. Yeah. And it was the same with the East area rapist. Literally just an old man in the woods who was like, yeah, he did it like, But they're
Julia: evil.
Julia: And you're like, is that, is that the same guy as the Golden State Killer?
Natalie: Yes, they, okay, thank you. I couldn't actually remember what his current, that is his most current name. Okay.
Julia: Okay. His moniker. I want, I, I will admit, I did watch the news coverage of his trial. Yeah.
Natalie: Cuz he's evil. Yeah. Like he is an evil man.
Natalie: I will watch the documentaries being like, look at this evil man. Train your brain to spot out other evil men like this.
Julia: And Well, and what was the most creepy about watching the video footage from the courthouse is how he just sat there. I don't wanna say it was smug. Mm-hmm. But it was definitely like, guess I can't believe you guys finally figured it out.
Julia: Look
Natalie: at you guys got me out of the woods, because that's what it is. Right. They're like, now I get to tell people how I got away with it for so long. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which is the premise of mine Hunter. They sent those men in with their tape recorders and they were like, Talk to Dahmer, it'll be great. Oh my God.
Natalie: Um, but also the fucked up part is, is that when I was in college, I was a huge fan of Criminal Minds, which is about the, like I remember that show. Mm-hmm. The task force that actually goes into the psychology of the killer's mind. Yeah. And I, I would watch it way late into the night, and then at some point my brain would be like, well, of course we're all killers.
Natalie: Look at how people treat us and our parents aren't great. And like the economy and all of it. I was like, turn it off. Turn it off. You're siding, you stop siding with Dar with Greg from Darma and Greg. You have to turn it off. The time is over. Yeah. So there's, there's also radical empathy in the true crime community is what I'm trying to say.
Natalie: Yeah. Because I'm like, gosh, that guy's mom was really mean to it. Yeah. Now, now when people complain to me about their partners or literally anything, I go, I bet you their dad hates them. Like, you should really look into that. And if their dad hates them, you need to dump them. It's not getting better.
Natalie: They're not going to do the therapy for it. They're not. They're not.
Julia: Okay. So we're gonna, we're coming to a close, and I'm going to end with this quote of the quote that the podcast, they start opens with the Great American art form. Isn't music or film or television,
Natalie: so fucking rude.
Julia: The great American art form is murder.
Julia: Watch it. We watch it, we celebrate it. We obsess over it. That is literally how the podcast opens. Well
Natalie: and honestly, can you name one European killer who isn't Jack the Ripper or Adolf Hitler? Okay. All right. I didn't know war criminals were on the table. Okay. I mean, I don't know. You really fucking showed me because I'm like, Jack the Ripper man.
Natalie: He killed sex workers. That was a bummer. And you're like, hit the Holocaust. So,
Julia: wait, cause like he Holocaust, he wasn't, he wasn't a war criminal until we declared war. Right. But like, those are the only two, two convenient. Yeah. Oh, does Stalin count? Well, yeah.
Natalie: Yeah. Jules, once Don't you bring in the World Wars, the Mussolini, the people who killed the Romanov.
Natalie: So the Boko bitches. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Sorry. All of them. Yes, all of them count.
Julia: But have you, okay. But remove that. And also it's only Jack the
Natalie: Ripper. Right? Because no one's doing a podcast episode on Murder. I wrote about Hitler or Mussolini. It's different. I don't know why it's different, but it's, yeah.
Natalie: How dare you. Uh, do you mean the Holocaust, Natalie? But sure. The murders of sex workers was a real draft in 19 nineteens London or whenever it happened. But like literally that's all Unless you count teen Henry Thei who tried to murder
Julia: all of his wives. All his wives, yeah.
Natalie: And was successful with
Julia: five Outta six.
Julia: Yeah. I love, I love, I love science before we, I love when pe I love people making decisions before we understand. That it's not the woman, it's you.
Natalie: I mean, honestly, like, yeah, but no, I was definitely being like the, the only one that gets glorified is Jack the Ripper. Yeah. Maybe organi, like real old timey, Peaky Blinders organized crime.
Natalie: Yeah.
Julia: But, but then if you're gonna talk about organized crime, that's a whole different conversation.
Natalie: Yeah. Because it's different. Yeah. But the way, but the way that we like literally pant at the mouth to be like, what's going on with the serial Keller? There's been like three women murdered in Mishawaka.
Natalie: You know what,
Julia: we recently in our area had a serial killer and he was targeting Hispanic or uh, language. Okay. Language from the news outlet. This is not how I would've phrased it if I was in charge of wording. Okay. But the news reported he was targeting Hispanic males. And he started in the East Bay and made his way to Stockton, Stockton's, like 30 miles north of me.
Julia: Mm-hmm. And then the Stockton PD ended up catching him and there was a survivor. It was a Hispanic female as as described by the news. Wow. And I thought that was interesting that the female escaped and survived.
Natalie: Don't make me say while you're talking about male victims, that women are smarter. Like don't you already set me up with the Hitler thing?
Natalie: You already set me up with the Hitler thing where I was like, Jack the Ripper, like the Holocaust. Oh, okay. The Romanoff assassinations. Oh, okay. Fuck me. Um,
Julia: no, but it was recent. This is the most recent, but I don't, I don't think it got national attention.
Natalie: Well, as you know, I am from the state of Indiana and you know, the opening, the first episode of, uh, unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, where she escapes the bunker.
Natalie: Yeah. Is that your hometown? Yeah, I will, not my hometown, but I believe that was in Indiana. Like. Killer. And I'm pretty sure I could be wrong, but I think the hydro, no, not the hijack, is hi wife. I think the where the news story was like if a white woman's running up to me, it's gotta be bad. Yes. That was, that's Ohio.
Natalie: That was that. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah. That so funny.
Natalie: I think that's Ohio. I could be wrong. I don't really look into Ohio murders. We don't currently have a murder that a serial killer at large that I'm aware of. And as you know,
Julia: I stopped watching the news right after I left the county because all the covid shit like burned me out.
Julia: Mm-hmm. So the fact that I even got like watched TV that day, Uhhuh, oh, you know what it was, I saw it on Instagram because somebody who used to live in the area who moved away, posted about it. And I was like, the fuck, we have a serial killer in Stockton. Like that's
Natalie: all bizarre, like, yeah. Well, I mean, we all should be really aware of whether or not there are active serial killers in our neighborhoods.
Natalie: True. I mean, Brock Turner is back in my hometown, so I could run into him at an ice cream parlor at any moment. Aw. And he's served zero consequences on a fun note. Do you think, do you think
Julia: that this show will come back a first season too?
Natalie: I'd fucking hope so. Okay. So as you know, I'm diving into selling Sunset.
Natalie: Yeah.
Julia: Oh, I'm so
Natalie: excited for you. Show, show. And what I've noticed about selling Sunset is I can't fucking understand the format because they ended season one. But they had a trailer ready for season two. For season two. Mm-hmm. I was like, how did you do that? So I feel like is that this scenario where they actually have more episodes and they're just gonna do a freeform situation where in three months we get more episodes?
Natalie: Because
Julia: that's the thing, because they're gonna have to put a fake belly on Kaylee Cuco. She had the baby.
Natalie: Yeah, she had that baby. Or maybe they already have episodes in the can. Maybe my mom's right. And I owe her an apology where she was like, well, maybe the writer strike hit up on it. I was like, mom, TV shows take so long to produce.
Natalie: Like I fucking know. I was like,
Julia: mother, mother, mother.
Natalie: Excuse me, I'm in the industry, mother. I don't know why you're talking like you know things, but maybe the writer strike. Ran outta episodes. We don't know. We weren't there. Yeah, we weren't there. I'll DM Kayleigh and be like, Kayleigh, what's the fuck's going on with this finale?
Natalie: Yeah, girl. Like what could someone call in Christmas Sena? Could we get Chris on the line? He's so hot.
Julia: I thought she was cute. And so many reviewers were like, what the fuck is Kaylee doing? And I was like, what do you mean? What the fuck is Kaylee doing? I thought she was adorable in this. I thought she did a good job.
Julia: Why are people
Natalie: always mad at
Julia: Kaylee? I don't know.
Natalie: Why are they? Oh, because people love to hate women, but especially like pregnant women who are still living their lives.
Julia: I loved that they wrote that into the show. Yeah. I thought that was so smart. Instead of just being like,
Natalie: hold this potted
Julia: plant the entire time.
Julia: Yeah. Cause you know what it does, it really does add an another layer element to the show because. We know there's a serial killer out there. We presume they're working with the serial killer because that's what the TV show is telling us right away. Mm-hmm. It adds this layer of is he sick enough? To murder a pregnant
Natalie: woman.
Natalie: Well, it also normalizes pregnancy on television. Correct? Correct. So now women who are with child who are going out for roles can just say, just make my character pregnant. Pregnancy is literally something we look at every day
Julia: and they didn't demean her in it either, because like the parts that were funny about it were real.
Julia: Like when he's like, let's run up the stairs real quick. The cops are here, they're coming for me, and she's like, I real up the stairs. Have you seen how pregnant I'm
Natalie: right. I'm not running. Yeah, I'm not running up the stairs. Yeah. Oh, why doesn't this sports club have an elevator? This is fucking rude.
Julia: Yeah, I'm sure it's $80,000 a year to li to be a member.
Julia: So it doesn't have one elevator,
Natalie: not a single one. Also, why are you running from the cops? Just stand there and be like, look, here's me and my pregnant wife. Would you like to ask me even more questions about that bartender
Julia: that was slaughtered the first time they showed up and he was like, oh, I don't know who you're talking about in that picture.
Julia: And they're like, you don't. And then show him the security footage. I was like, how stupid are you? You could have just been like, oh, I didn't realize that was the same girl because internet. Yeah. Because if you look online, people curate themselves beautifully or they curate themselves to look like a mess.
Julia: Right, right. Also. And so, so it's like you are, you are such an as an innocent, because you don't even know how to navigate this. Like you clearly don't have siblings who you tried to get in trouble all the time.
Natalie: Well, and honestly it's not a crime to have met a bartender and be like, yeah, correct. I've been telling all of my friends that it's fucking crazy.
Natalie: I talked to her right before she was slaughtered. Isn't that nuts? Because,
Julia: and then, you know, that's literally how he would respond if he didn't think he knew this person who killed her.
Natalie: Right. Exactly. But listen, as we know, I have talked a mini on my show, your show and our show still comfy, that people have to start being smarter about murder.
Natalie: They have to start. Calming the fuck down when they have to talk to these people
Julia: because you can still have the movement in the show that you are seeking without them acting
Natalie: a fool. Mm-hmm. But they're trying to make it funny. I didn't find the show very funny. Did you find it very funny?
Julia: I found parts of it funny.
Natalie: Yeah. But I
Julia: think Laugh out loud every
Natalie: episode. No, I don't even think I laughed out loud. Hardly ever.
Julia: I think again, I think, like I told you, they're trying to be satire. Yeah. And they didn't take enough
Natalie: risk. Mm-hmm. To be satire. I am really worried that satire is dead.
Julia: I don't think it's dead. I just think that people,
Natalie: what's a modern
Julia: satire that we've had?
Julia: Let me finish my thought. I I was gonna say, is it
Natalie: Hitler with the Holocaust? Fuck you. Is it the producers with springtime in hit with Hitler?
Natalie: Ted, you're gonna have to cut some of this because it's fucking offensive to someone out there.
Julia: We're gonna, this will be like, Hey, if you want the extra bit, go to Patreon. Um, no, it is, what was I trying to, what was I supposed to give you an example of satire? Oh, my, my thought. I think that people are scared to be satirical because everyone is crying that everything is offensive.
Julia: Mm-hmm. Without actually like truly calling out and criticizing the true offensive stuff. They're just like, that's offensive. And it's like, I need you to dig deeper. Right. Tell me why it's offensive and then they can't, and it's like, do you not have the language to understand why it's offensive or are you just on a surface level with being offended these
Natalie: days?
Natalie: You're being really nice about my point. And my point is that people aren't smart enough for satire anymore. Like people don't read. People just wanna see Marvel movies. Like we have Gotten To the Point Yeah. Where like we do you, I mean you do remember the movies we grew up with because we're rewatching them and we're like, this is better than anything I've fucking seen all year.
Julia: The best thing in Mario's coming on to talk about it. The
Natalie: Blackening. Yeah, that
Julia: was, that movie is so fucking funny. And that's all I'm gonna say about it because everyone's gonna have to tune into that episode.
Natalie: I can't wait for the Barbie
Julia: movie girl. I got three people. I gotta confirm if they still wanna go before I can get my tickets.
Julia: Because I'm like, I just need you to confirm, because I'm buying tickets, I'm buying
Natalie: tickets. I will be going on the premiere. I will be dressed as Barbie. I will be making my own Barbie accessories. Mm-hmm. And but yeah, like I truly think that as a society, we have, and I call it the Disney syndrome. We have desensitized, we have sanitized everything.
Natalie: Mm-hmm. To the point. Where we've killed our brain's capability to go, oh, I see what they're doing there. Well, it's like I
Julia: told you my theory with Bridgette Jones. Mm-hmm. The book, it's all satire about her weight. She's literally making satirical commentary on women's obsession and society's obsession with women being fit and thin.
Julia: Yeah. And then it, the translation did not make it to the
Natalie: movie. No. It's just Renee Wigger
Julia: hating herself. Correct. Correct. And being told that that's endearing. Correct. Correct. So I cannot wait to cover it on Jelly Pop's book Club because I will get into
Natalie: it. A bunch of men sat in a room and went, what if she hates herself for being fat?
Natalie: And that's the joke. That's the
Julia: joke. Okay. Tell everybody where they
Natalie: can find you. I. Well, hey everyone. Um, my name is Natalie Catona. I'm the host of two All the Men I've Tolerated Before. It's your weekly look at everyday misogyny. Recently due to the times we have covered the Taylor Swift, the Scandal Ball, we will be covering the Rider strike.
Natalie: Um, I'm trying to think of other current events that have just been riffed with misogyny and nonsense. I was like, I have to do an episode and I need it scheduled now. So if you're a reality TV junkie, a swifty or a person who wants capitalism to end where the show with for you, love
Julia: that. Love that. And you can find, uh, me on a few of her episodes because Natalie and I like to episode swap.
Julia: You can also tune in every fucking Tuesday to Instagram as we talk about tv, because you really shouldn't be missing that because it really is a lot of fun.
Natalie: It's just, it's funny. And if you log in and you're like, I've never watched One Tree Hill, but I have some saved by the bell notes, we'll talk to you about Save.
Natalie: We'll talk to you about it. That's the beauty of live entertainment. I'll talk to you about Zach Morris.
Julia: Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. We are delightful. Y'all are missing out. Well, you're not missing out today because you heard this combo. I told you 2023 is feral.
Natalie: I just love it when you end up, when I'm just like, you know, catch us, watch us on the YouTube, we talk about movies, and you're like, you're dumb for not doing it already.
Natalie: And I'm like, why are you bullying your own fan base? I am Ferrell. I personally know some of your fan base and now I'm gonna have to text them and be like, I'm so sorry that that's how Jules acted on
Julia: her own show. Today I am Ferrell because I got an unexpected insurance bill that is taking more money than I'd like and I'm have one
Natalie: part-time job, so this will be my reminder that capitalism kills.
Natalie: We talked a lot about murder and how serial killers kill, but it's truly capitalism. Mm-hmm. And we both have our Venmos Cash app, PayPals and our Patreons and both of our link trees. Mm-hmm Support hoe support jus having car insurance. My cat needs Prozac. Do you like cats?
Julia: So I've just decided this is our Patreon
Natalie: jk. You like cats? She needs Prozac.
Julia: All of season one of based on a true story is available on Peacock now. But before we close out, I want to share a few things with you. If you or someone you know has watched based on a true story and loved our discussion, share it with them. Share a Show is a really low stakes way to support the show.
Julia: Or you can leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, reviews, help Let Apple know the show is worth listening to. Um, and I have a few announcements. Our Happy Hour is back. And if you want in on our chats about pop culture's greatest hits, you can join us by joining us on Patreon for just $5 a month. You can join our studio audience, which gets you access to the backlog of our bonus content and the live happy hour.
Julia: Okay, now for Book Club, this month's Book Club Pick is Lessons in Chemistry by Bonnie Garma. You can read along with us all month long, but if you want to join the live chat, we are meeting July 16th. If you join Patreon at the Best Friends Club membership, you get access to live Happy Hour and our live monthly book Club Pop culture makes me jealous is written and edited by me, your host.
Julia: And we are taking a small summer break to Gear Up for season five, as well as launching our sister podcast, the Jelly Pops Book Club, where you can find wherever you find your podcasts. In season five, we're gonna get into the nitty gritty of Disney movies that shaped our young minds. We have some returning friends, and we have some new friends coming to the show, and I'm so excited about this season and cannot wait for you to tune in.
Julia: If you're new around here, use this break to catch up on our back episodes or join us on Patreon. You'll still get fresh, new content over there every month. If you wanna keep up with the show, you can follow us on Instagram at pop culture. Makes me jealous. Or if you want a KT over the summer, you can find me at the Julia Washington.
Julia: Thanks for tuning in y'all. Until next time.
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