The Barbie Movie
Show Notes:
The Barbie Movie took the movie theater by storm! Opening weekend brought in millions upon millions of dollars and now has crossed the billions threshold since its release on July 21st release.
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Transcript:
Julia: Obviously, it was on the Barbie side of TikTok, right? I haven't read any like literal reviews or critical analysis on purpose. And so then I was like, Oh, maybe then when I when we're done recording, I'll go in and read stuff. And then my outro will be like, So you listen to Barbie, so you
Natalie: listen to Barbie.
Julia: Hey friends, this is pop culture makes me jealous with a side of to all the men I've tolerated before I'm your host Julia Washington and on today's show Natalie Katona and I discuss the Barbie movie This is a dual recording meaning that we are sharing this audio for our respective shows So it might feel more like a still comfy episode than a traditional pop culture makes me jealous episode.
Julia: It also runs a little bit longer than our normal stuff. And while I generally am against episodes longer than an hour, you get Natalie and me in a room, and we can't be stopped. So, here we go to the show.
Julia: Obviously, it was on the Barbie side of TikTok. But I haven't read any like literal reviews or critical analysis on purpose. And so then I was like, Oh, maybe then when I, when we're done recording, I'll go in and read stuff. And then my outro will be like, so you listen to Barbie,
Natalie: so you listen to Barbie. I don't read reviews or headlines unless they're real click baity.
Natalie: Um, I've only read the discourse on the cookie.
Julia: Oh, and the cookie chats. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen people keep sending me headlines like, Oh, can we stop talking about Ken or you're all missing the point about the movie or like on and on and on and on and on. And I'm just like, that's okay. Like I don't know why, but I don't necessarily want to have this exhaustive.
Julia: discourse about the Barbie
Natalie: movie, right? Because at the end of the day, I went and saw a second time and it's so fucking slapped. And I'm like, why are people complaining? Why do we always have? I am the biggest complainer. I have a podcast about everyday misogyny. Yes, there's nothing I love more. To do than complain, which is why we love you, which is why we love me.
Natalie: And we'll get into it when it comes to the kind of it all. But like, I walked out and I told you no notes. Thank God for feminism and Greta. Like,
Julia: right. And, and same. And, you know, I saw it four times. You saw it four times
Natalie: in rapid
Julia: succession. In rapid succession. Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. And then again, the following Thursday.
Julia: Friday. Um, and I agree. Like I, so, oh, okay. So let's, let me, let me, 'cause I've told you, let's start, let's start. I've told you multiple times, there's a lot of things I've been waiting to say, like I'm not engaging in the discourse, in the chats. Uh, either Uhhuh, that we're in, because I was waiting for two today to say these things because, you know, once it's outta my head, I can't bring it back.
Julia: And I can't remember what the fuck I said, which is why I had to start a pod podcast. But my, I am a firm believer in the whole intention of this film is gender swapping, specifically white people gender swapping. Yeah,
Natalie: which a lot of people are on board for and I'm just like, I still think We'll talk about it.
Natalie: Let's let's do it. Let's just dive in I'm on tiktok live right now too while i'm doing this Because i'm like mama needs money mama mama looked at all of her um mama looked at all of her accounts today and none of them were great. I don't know why it doesn't tell
Julia: me when
Natalie: you're live. I don't know. I don't know how the TikTok notifications work.
Natalie: Oh, there
Julia: it is. I had to go into following. Okay.
Natalie: I mean, they won't hear you because you're
Julia: I know, but I can see you. So now I'm a little
Natalie: bit hyped about our Barbie episode because they only heard half of the conversations. Yeah. And I feel like me
Julia: watching helps your numbers, right? Correct. It always does.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. So we're just going to, I have 20%. So we're just going to let that go for as long as it can. As long as it
Natalie: will. I do need you to ask your child because he's hip to the hip. Why is it that whenever I'm on TikTok live, some random man tells me that he loves my wig. I feel like I'm being harassed and no one will tell me why it's a thing.
Natalie: I don't know
Julia: either because I understand it to be a microaggression for black women. Right.
Natalie: And as we know, I'm white. I'm a white. Yes. Okay.
Julia: So let's just dive in to all of it. So, as you know, I am a firm believer that this is a gender swap specifically for white. People film. Right? Because how else could Greta do that?
Julia: She's a white woman from Sacramento. 9 1 6 2 1 9
Natalie: That's where I grew up.
Julia: People get tattooed here, like people, it's a big Oh, do they? Yeah. Like, so I'm in the 2 0 9 and people who move from like the 2 0 9 to 9 1 6 will do 2 0 9 1 6 or like 2 0 9 1 6 is a, is like a legitimate. Thing. So, um, cause it's 209 is right next to the 916.
Natalie: I have no idea how I feel about that and I'm just going to have to reflect.
Julia: Yeah, but that's not why we're here. We're here to talk about Barbie. So do you want to kick us off because in, like, I'm breaking normal pop culture makes me jealous tradition. I have read no articles. I have read no reviews. I have read no criticisms. I'm coming in to this discussion with having seen the movie four times.
Julia: Correct.
Natalie: I thought that a very cute way for us to start off the show and the Barbie talk so that we walk forward with love because that's what we want to do for Margot and Greta and I guess Ryan Gosling.
Julia: America Ferrera. America Ferrera. Um,
Natalie: I thought it would be cute if we went into our favorite memories of Barbie or like how Barbie entered our lives.
Natalie: I do like that. Thank you. I wish more people were actually doing that as a trend instead of showing me what their men do for work. I don't care what your man does for work.
Julia: And especially in the conversation of the Barbie chat, like my best friend and I walked out of the movie and we were like, if you know Barbie, Lore, the Barbie universe, it's even better because it was like Mattel was like, here are the keys and access to our librarian.
Natalie: That's me with the keys.
Julia: Yes. Um, like we're live right now or something. I mean you are, but like not, this isn't a live chat. Um, I, there, I feel like Barbie's always been. Because I love, I've always loved dolls. I've always loved anything that I can dress up and make pretty, like all of it. And, and my, the very first Barbie I remember buying for myself is actually in the opening credits of the movie.
Julia: It's the Barbie with like the neon ish swirly type dress with the very long hair. Like that's the first Barbie I bought for myself. So people have been buying me Barbies, but I had my own money and bought that Barbie because I was like, look at all that hair. The hair, the hair,
Natalie: Barbie hair, Barbie hair is also such a part of the experience, which I feel like they could have gone into more about like the care and the upkeep of Barbie hair.
Julia: Did you ever have the Barbie head that you could do like the haircut? Okay. My sister did too. And then it was a hand me down to me. And then at some point I cut off all its hair and that was it.
Natalie: And now no one will see that Barbie. Now she's just, what do you think happened to all of the Barbie heads in Barbie land? Ooh. Do you think, do you think they're in that really scary like museum type thing that happens in the Wizard of Oz sequel that I traumatized myself with, but not many people did?
Julia: Um, yeah, I actually have, I've blocked out the sequel, I've seen it, but I had to block it out.
Julia: Um. You remember,
Natalie: she goes into like a building. Yeah. That's a great question. Just rows of heads in jars. It's like,
Julia: it's like that Toy Story scene where the doll gets attached to the thing from. Sid, the next door neighbor, like, I guess I just envisioned that being it, but tell me your barbie experience.
Natalie: Sure. So really the, um, the, I have two memories that coordinate with barbie. And the 1st is, I, like many children played too hard with a barbie and made a weird barbie and I was behind. Like a large piece of furniture in my like childhood home, my first childhood home, and I was hiding behind there because I had scissors and I had like a mission and I cut off all of my hair and my mom came and she found me.
Natalie: Because she's so nosy and she just started screaming at me because she had assumed that I cut my own hair she did not care that I destroyed the doll, but like we lead with cursing first and questions later and It all worked out. But then my second we used to spend summers with one of my older cousins So that would be on my dad's side since I'm the oldest cousin on mom's okay she would come and spend a couple of weeks with us or sometimes all summer with us or a while with us.
Natalie: I don't know. And she was, she's 10 years older than me. So we would produce a Barbie reality TV show love or no reality TV show. We had no concept of that in the 90s, but like, yeah, a soap opera, we called it like Sophia story. And there were like plot lines and like You know, love triangles, and no one had a job, but we were all very
Julia: rich.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because honestly, it's Barbie's world, you're playing with Barbie. Like, my cousin had a playroom, it was wall to wall Barbie shit. Every Barbie you could ever think of, all her outfits, all the accessories. I literally have no idea how my aunt was able to afford any of that.
Natalie: One of my cousins had a off brand Barbie.
Natalie: A Marbie, I don't know. And... It was supposed to say,
Julia: Barbie, Barbie,
Natalie: Barbie, I don't know, Barb. Um, it was supposed to say, it's like Barbie with a, with a Y. Um, it was supposed to, it was one of the ones that could talk if you pressed a button in its ass. Oh, and so it was supposed to say, welcome to my party. But she was clearly like. Getting down low on the on the voice box and the like battery of it all so it instead sounded like Welcome to my party And I was a child I was a child so I just did a type 5 on bathroom jokes, yeah and I think that's when cousins couldn't be friends anymore.
Natalie: Like, my cousin was so super pissed. I think I had to go home. I think I made her cry. Aww. I mean, that's comedy, kids. I wasn't making fun of you. I was making fun of potties.
Julia: Right. Right. Right. I will say that the commentary I've seen from some of the, um, Black creators that I follow who are very much doing anti racist work.
Julia: They are discussing how this is very much white feminism. Yeah. I, I don't, I mean, I, there, I have to heart agree with that because it's, there is a level of privilege in Barbie land and now Barbie land is diverse, right? Like it's definitely more diverse now in Barbie land than in reality.
Natalie: And I think that.
Natalie: The validation in saying that it's white feminism as a white is that white feminists just like to assume that if everything's nice, everything's fine. Right. So like Barbie land is beautiful and there are overweight Barbies and there are, um, differently. Yeah. Differently abled Barbies and, you know, true ally Allen.
Natalie: And, but. So the whole, I think that white feminism is like. Purposeful in it because she keeps saying like, I just don't understand we fix this and like white women believe that every time we march, we're like, get on us. We fixed it. Yeah,
Julia: yeah. You know, now that you say it, it might be, uh, you know, one of those satirical commentaries on what, how, how sort of white women approach feminism and, um, And all that it's involved because when everyone was talking about like, Oh, Greta.
Julia: Greta's letterbox interview, she talks about the however many movies that are influenced, that influenced her making this film or whatever. And I knew that, I mean, we all knew that the Kubrick influence because it's the opening scene. And then she had commented in an interview, in passing, in a different interview about how like, oh, and there's others.
Julia: I thought she meant there were other Kubrick references. I didn't realize until I saw the letterbox interview that there was like, a shit ton of movies she was referencing. So I went back because I've seen clips of it on TikTok. So I went to Letterboxd directly to watch the full 13 minute interview. And she goes movie by movie, specifically which scenes were impactful.
Julia: And then in watching that, I was like, okay, that makes even more sense to me on why specifically, like, Ken gets a dream ballet and Barbie doesn't because it's always. Like, it's, it's in reference to, you know, Gene Kelly movies, specifically, I think she said American in Paris, which is one of my favorite films ever.
Julia: Gene Kelly is the crush of my 1950s dreams that didn't
Natalie: Have you seen the Have you seen the Broadway production of an American in Paris because it's like one of the most beautiful
Julia: You asked me these things like I get like we get Broadway shows here
Julia: Sometimes too and then in then it's always on a fucking Wednesday because I you know People who live in San Francisco or Sacramento can easily hit the theater on a Wednesday. Not so much for
Natalie: I live by mice I could get like a really good teacher's discount for that one, and I went by myself, and I was like, no, I want to see this, and it was like, one of the most beautiful shows I've
Julia: ever been to.
Julia: I love that, I love that, because American in Paris is such an, it's such a beautiful, like, just the dancing, the singing. Sets all of it. Like it's got one of the best dream ballets I've ever seen performed. And then, you know, singing in the Rain was another influence that she talked about. And again, that has a dream ballet within a dream ballet.
Julia: And so like when I saw this interview, I was like this, okay, now this fully makes sense on why certain things happen in the movie. And Ken gets all the whatevers and Barbie doesn't because she's pulling like the source, what she's inspired by. Like maybe I don't know maybe she didn't want to like reframe it for the women But I don't know it just to me.
Julia: It was like the answer That I needed I guess I don't know.
Natalie: I Have a really hard time swallowing That like the women were afterthoughts in the Barbie movie because for me and I think what it is is that we're I think in my head I We're like conflating women empowerment with misogyny awareness. And to me, the Barbie movie is a misogyny awareness movie.
Natalie: Like, Oh look, Ken spent 15 minutes in the real world. And he was like, and now. I am a destroyer of nations. Yeah,
Julia: that's actually a really good point. Not actually like, because you're not smart or anything, but because I didn't think of it either. Yeah,
Natalie: I think, and, and for me, that is like, What an empowering move for Greta for her to make an entire movie about the jokes you and I make about
Julia: patriarchy all the time.
Julia: And that's that's the other part of it too. Like I walked out of it and I was like, I fucking feel like if Natalie and I had written Barbie this or a movie that sort of satirizes the misogyny of it all, this could have been it.
Natalie: And I think that when you you kind of changing your head about it being like anti misogyny propaganda.
Natalie: Um, it, it very much feels like we let men in on the joke and their feelings are still very hurt, but we let them in on the joke. Like, this is what we understand to be going on in your fucking heads whenever you mistreat us or colonize something or anything like that. And they, they get to be a part of it because it's pretty and like.
Natalie: I'm still convinced that Rob Thomas doesn't understand why his song was picked for the movie.
Julia: Well, when he, what was it, was it the Us Weekly or People or one of them where they like reached out to him and were like, Hey, what did you think about it? And he's like, Oh, I thought it was great. And I was like, Like you said, like, do you, did you see the scene that it was used for?
Julia: Because like,
Natalie: sir, Have you listened to the lyrics that you've written? Because like, to me, there's no bigger joke. And no, like, letting women let loose better than a Ken doll, a beach full of Ken dolls, making dead eye contact with a beach full of Barbies, being like, I wanna push you around and I will and I will.
Natalie: And it's like, Oh, your expectation is to like. Put me down, and you will, and you will. Yeah. The whole song is about taking me for granted, which is what we've built, the patriarch, we have built the patriarchy on the shoulders of taking women for granted.
Julia: Yeah, and that's part. Yeah, that's I think that's one of the steps of, you know, the patriarchy, because in order for there to be success, you have to have someone at home caring for your children for your home doing all the things for you.
Julia: So you don't have to take up the brain space. And Ken really does kind of get into that. He's like, you never think of me, you never do. And it's like this, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ken, dear, this is Barbie Land. She don't have to think about you. She don't have to care about you. She don't have to do none of that shit.
Julia: This is not your world. You're just Ken. And I think that was like, for me, that was part of the commentary of like, the different, but then the difference being is that Barbie was like, wow, I should have, like, not I should have, but like, the difference being like Barbie saying, oh, I didn't realize that by not paying attention to you, you're.
Julia: It was hurting you, actually, so for me, that was, um. Modeling of how you handle it when you've been a shit and I've called
Natalie: out well and also I feel like during that moment, of course, I like told in my head and and I was America for like America for era and I are the same type of broken in this movie where chain smoking cigarettes and we're like, don't you dare apologize to the fucking because we've been hurt like he stole your house.
Natalie: He stole my, he stole your house,
Julia: brainwashed all your
Natalie: friends, he brainwashed all of your friends. He took your white house. He like deep, like he colonized your entire nation because he was hoping ponies would show up. And like, so I'm America for era in that scene where I'm like, we don't apologize to men.
Natalie: But then I saw a really, I saw like 30 seconds of a really great tick tock today where it's like, They keep calling Barbie Feminism 101, but that's because the Barbies needed Feminism 101. They never thought the Kens would have done this. Right. To be fair, the Kens were taking advantage of how perfect the Barbies had made Barbieland, and they were completely satisfied with that.
Natalie: Mm hmm. Right up until Ryan Gosling showed back up and was like, what if we could get horses? And I
Julia: thought it was actually brilliant for her to, for her to give him the line. I lost interest in horses when I realized, or patriarchy when I wasn't When I didn't, when I realized it wasn't about horses because how many men are being also crushed by the patriarchy because they're not allowed to have full emotions, they're not allowed to, um, stay at home with their kids.
Julia: They're not allowed to do anything outside of the prescription of you are man.
Natalie: You are man. You
Julia: men. You men. Do men
Natalie: things. You love money. You love power and you
Julia: know that's not that's not for everybody like that is a system that is harmful This is a system that is harmful to Everybody because there are select few who are actually thriving within it and those people are miserable, too
Natalie: Yeah, and I will say that You know, Jules and I, we did, um, what, we went into hiding after the Barbie movie because we knew that should anyone bring us any criticism about the Barbie movie, I personally was going to cry and never leave my bed.
Natalie: I was like, how dare you? Greta wrote it for me. It was my summer present. How dare you? I am living the summer of the era of Barbie. I'm girling hard this summer. Yeah, my hair is purple. I'm chaotic, bisexual Barbie at gaming conventions. Like, don't take this from me. Like, let me fuck with my vibe. I am a woman who speaks weekly, sometimes multiple times a week about patriarchy and misogyny.
Natalie: Just let me have this one. Like, I'm doing the work. I'm deprogramming. And I'm trying to lead others towards deprogramming, let me do the, let me have this one movie. Let me have the Pretty Pink movie without having to think about it too hard. So I left the movie, I had chills the entire movie. I told you I didn't cry that first time I saw the movie because I was too delighted that this was the movie.
Natalie: Yeah,
Julia: yeah. And you know, so, and I think you and I've talked about this before, cause I think you're the only person I've talked in depth with already about Barbie, everyone else like you, I'm like, I'm hiding, don't ruin it. I'm on a good high. Um, So I saw it three times opening weekend. So the vibe was very much hyped up and everyone was into it.
Julia: And the crowds were just so cheering, laughing, crying, clapping, all of the things that you want in a movie theater, which is an experience I love. I love that, that shared and collective emotions, but it's still very. individual for the person unique to the person, yada, yada. The second time I saw it was the second weekend, much more subdued audience.
Julia: So I was really able to get into my true feelings about the film because I wasn't getting consumed by The audience reaction, which isn't a bad thing. Like I loved being a part of the audience reaction. I loved, like I've mentioned, like I've said, I love being part of that. But the first time I saw it, the montage with all the women, my initial thought was, wait, are you telling us that we are supposed to just be like moms?
Julia: Because I'm not here for that. Because Greta, just because you popped out two babies doesn't mean that we all need to was kind of my first thought. And then as I saw it more and more, I got something different from that montage. Every single time and then the fourth time it was see the beauty in being a woman like here's the beauty about being a woman
Natalie: because there was a lot of feminine joy in that montage and I think people.
Natalie: I think what happens the first time you see it is you see a bunch of kids and you see a bunch of women raising their kids and you're like, I don't want Barbie to be pregnant. Right. Midge didn't sell. It's an entire joke throughout the entire movie. Um, no.
Julia: Everyone's like pregnant Midge from the 60s. I'm like, bitch, no.
Julia: Early 2000s. Get your facts straight. Early
Natalie: 2000s. She had twins up in that belly. You popped it off with a magnet and. Out they plopped and they were just like little They were like a cross between a fetus and a baby because yeah, and you couldn't play with them You just know shove them right back into her and
Julia: there was a lot of controversy because they're midge Where's the dad Alan doesn't need to be sold in the box with Mitch.
Julia: Calm down well,
Natalie: I think there's a lot of controversy because like we talked about on pop culture makes me jealous when we did a It's based on a true story. People are still very uncomfortable with the idea of viewing pregnancy. Yes.
Julia: But like pregnant women having full range of emotions, being horny, you know, like all the things
Natalie: well, in just like the act of childbirth, like, well, if I tell my kid, That women have children, I might have to say the word vagina.
Natalie: Right.
Julia: I mean, they weren't even allowed to say pregnant on television until, I don't know, 20 years ago.
Natalie: Right. Because it insinuated that someone got dicked down. But so, but I think you're right on that second, like I saw the woman bowling and I was like, Oh, it's a montage about feminine joy. It's not a montage about mommy, me and you.
Julia: Because that moment when you, she hit when she bull and, and everyone's happy for her and she's got this bit and it's just this crowd. It was just like, I like wept at that point. Um, and then when you learn that Greta had said to the cast and crew, send in your real videos of people that you love that show us, you know, joy and love.
Julia: And then you realize these are all real women experiencing real joy in the real world. And then have you seen that interview where the interviewers like, Hey, Greta. So like, fun fact, one of the people that's in that montage is my friend who is deceased. I
Natalie: know when he says it's, it's a dead lady in that montage and he, and he tells her she would have loved this movie.
Natalie: Yeah. Like, thank goodness she gets to be a part of it because she would have been. search filled with feminine joy. And let me tell you something about feminine joy. Um, feminine joy is the quickest way to make a misogynist mad and the quickest way to snuff them out. And here's my story. Um, as you know, um, pre sale codes for at the day that we're recording now for the second leg of the heiress tour went out last night.
Natalie: And so people, people be doing their ceremonies, they be, they be lighting candles, they be listening to Enchanted three times in a row while turning clockwise and facing the sunset, like people need codes. So I take a bunch of my joyful, heiress photos with Stephanie in my outfit, walking up with my friend Darcy when I take aided, and I make a little montage.
Natalie: And. I put it on TikTok and TikTok is clearly nicer than me because I think only women ever visit my page. But then I throw it up on YouTube and within the first 15 minutes, the only reason it was picking up traction is because men were fat shaming me. Oh God. And I was like, and I was like, this is why you hate the Barbie movie too.
Natalie: Like you're convinced that if we have joy outside of you, via Taylor Swift or the Barbie movie, Or fucking girls night, every night should be girls night that literally, literally there's no purpose for you because we also get to have our own credit cards own land and all of it now. So now, and instead of just like rising to the occasion to be like, what if I was more fun?
Natalie: What if I like, didn't take every opportunity to make my. female partner man and smash our wedding cake in front of all of our family and friends. Guy with the sword. Instead of like doing that, you guys swung the complete opposite direction and was like, what if I just yell at them every time they smile?
Julia: You know, it's interesting. So a couple thoughts in my head when you bring these up. Marginalized joy is always a threat to the patriarchy, apparently, because the same reaction happens when it comes to black joy. Second to that, another thing that I thought of when you were speaking was the overall threat of how we can be independent when really the response should be, how much better would it be that I married you or partnered with you because I want you and not because I need you.
Julia: To pay
Natalie: my mortgage. And here's the thing. I didn't need the Barbie movie to tell me that I have been telling men that for years, I've been making tech talks about that, or I've been commenting on other women's tech talks about that, about the fact that like. I didn't find myself in a really bad situation and therefore thought I need a man's pension.
Natalie: Although, ABC, I am up to being the slut on The Golden Bachelor. You just call. There's no other way I'm getting a pension, but you just call. I didn't find myself in a very dire situation and immediately ran down the aisle. I fucking chose you. Like what a perk. Right. You get to walk this earth. Every day be like, she chose me
Julia: because on the other side of that coin, the other thing that pop culture tells us is men never want to be number two.
Julia: They never want to be the second choice. So then, so then, but if this guy, if, if guy number one. Who has all the things I need so I'm not unhoused and hungry, but chose someone else and you're number two, what do you want me to do about that? Like, sorry,
Natalie: like, like, sorry, I'm so
Julia: sorry. Help us recreate society.
Julia: So the option isn't I got to marry this super wealthy guy if I want to be able to not sleep on in my car. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah.
Natalie: Um, also the second time that I saw it, I got over my anger of the ending and my confusion because as you know, my first Um, reaction was an America Ferrera at, uh, I'm broken inside reaction where I'm like, why would you spend 24 hours in the human world and be like, you know who I want to talk to more human men, no Barbie, no.
Natalie: And why didn't Rhea Perlman tell her absolutely not. Will you go and live in the world of men? And I'm, I'm convinced that that's why the aliens. Won't actually touch down because they know it's bad here.
Julia: They're like, we can't hang the white men will kill us. Right.
Natalie: They know, they know, they know that they've probably got a cousin underneath the Pentagon.
Natalie: So
Julia: I hear about what they did to my cousin underneath the Pentagon.
Natalie: Underneath the Pentagon in area 51. But this time I paid attention instead of just letting the chills and the giant clown smile have him. And it was. It was the only way she got out of that assumption that Will Ferrell made, where he's like, Well, the next part of her story is she's going to let Ken move in.
Natalie: She loves Ken. And she's like, I don't love Ken. I have not liked him once in this movie. And
Julia: the, and so here's what I love here. I loved a lot of things about this film, but to tie it into what you're talking about, here's what I loved. Barbie's presented with a, with a high heel and a Birkenstock. We have all been in that crossroads at some point.
Julia: Some women are still pro high heel and for different reasons, and that's totally fine. But the symbolism of the decisions of do you want to keep living naively in this world or do you want to grow and become enlightened? They just happen to be represented through a pink high heel and a Birkenstock. Mm hmm.
Julia: We've all been there and some women's choose to ignore it and which is part of the problem with white feminism because they're like, Oh, we're only going to worry about our white problems. What do you mean black people? Why do you always make it about racism? That's dumb. It kind of shit, right? Did you like my face when I'm, um,
Natalie: the Barbie movie made us so mature.
Natalie: Thanks, Greta.
Julia: But then to, like, bring it to the very end and she steps out of the car and she's chosen the Birkenstock, like, to me that was her saying, like, I'm more, especially when she's like giving Ken that speech at the end, like, you can be more than just Ken. I didn't read that as her giving Ken the speech.
Julia: I read it as it started out as Ken's speech, but then she's like. Oh, I should be listening to what I'm saying to Ken, too. Because this whole movie, people have been trying to tell me who I am and what I am, but I need to figure that out for myself. And for me,
Natalie: it's like a really great parallel of women who move Out of their homes, whether it be your family home, your partner's home, whatever, and they have the after divorce glow up or they have the, I'm just a small town girl living in a lonely world glow glow up where it's like, I got out of this situation that made me comfortable and made me never want to grow and, but I knew I'd never discover anything about myself there.
Julia: Yeah, because growth is scary. Like, there's a reason why it's very much encouraged at the age of 18 to move away and go to college because I'm looking at 40 real soon. And I'm like, I need and I'm working on deprogramming the thought and mentality that our culture has is that you can't do that at 40.
Julia: But you can, because I've experienced a major life change. And so I can't be the person I literally cannot be the person I was five years ago. It's not physically possible anymore. So like, I love how she's like, in this sort of coming of age situation, because we also always assume coming of age is only relevant for when you are a teen, but coming of age is really just having a major change in your life.
Julia: So she's having this coming of age moment. And while people are very upset that she's choosing to live in the real world, she's done all that she can do in Barbie land.
Natalie: That's
Julia: There's she has to figure out her next steps like you've said, like, there has to be more to life to her life. And even people were like, Oh, and then, you know, with Barbie land, they just go back to the things they were and like, that's so dumb.
Julia: And I was like, I'm sorry, did anybody else hear when mother was like, you know, said something and then Issa Rae, President Barbie was like, excuse me, we're not doing that. We're not going back to the way it was. I don't know if people are interpreting that as We're not going back to the way it was when the Kens took over or we're not going back to the way it was when it was just us in charge.
Julia: I read it as we're not going back to the way it was when Before the Ken's took over, right? Because the Barbies have also now grown and learned from patriarchy and like, they need to figure out what it means for them, like to live now, either cooperatively or some sort of mixture of like matrix, like some sort of new version of matriarchy or what, but.
Julia: I didn't read it at the end. Is anybody going back to the way things
Natalie: were? Because, number one, if Issa Rae was just being like, oh yeah, we're not going back to the Ken way of doing things. Yeah, well, the Kens got to do their way for like three days. Of course, what a silly thing to tell mother. And like, what a silly thing to assume that that's what like mother meant.
Natalie: But are we ready to talk about how I don't care, I don't care that people think that this movie was very unjustly unfair to Ken's and men everywhere? Like, I do not
Julia: care. Yeah, let's get into it.
Natalie: So, I think that line, the, we're not going back to the way things are. I think if Issa Were.
Julia: Very specifically were.
Julia: Yeah.
Natalie: Were. I think if Issa Rae had then turned to Alan and said, Alan, we want you to head up the Department of Psychiatry. I don't care a day. But instead she turns to Kate McKinnon and weird Barbie offers a genuine apology to be like, hey We did you dirty? Yeah, we are so sorry and she's like I'd love to clean up the dirt everywhere Yeah, I'd be in charge of sanitation.
Natalie: I think if they had pivoted to Alan No one, no one would have ever said, and now they're just, they're just going to indoctrinate the men and the men are going to continue to be homeless. Kens didn't look homeless. We just don't know where they lived because we didn't
Julia: care. Exactly, because we never cared about where our Kens lived, ever.
Julia: The thing about that scene, too, for me, Natalie, is how she, it, to me it showed Even in a female led and run society, we are still, we still have the potential to be bad to each other because they were so weird. Barbie. I don't want to talk to weird Barbie. Oh my God. And then they full on. We're just like weird Barbie.
Julia: Come and join us and Kate McKinnon improvised that line, apparently, which I shouldn't. Yeah, which I love because she's brilliant. And I miss her on SNL. Well, and here's the thing about that's the other part of it where I'm just like, they're not going back to matriarchy because she's saying like, we are becoming more inclusive.
Julia: Is it more inclusive for Ken's? I don't give a
Natalie: fuck. I don't care. I literally don't. I want it more inclusive for Alan. And if the Ken's get like, yeah. Privilege out of that too, like just cast off, like secondhand privilege. Okay. Yeah. But, and the thing about Weird Barbie is that Kate McKinnon was everyone's biggest supporter.
Natalie: Yes. She was the first one to tell you that she loved you. She was the first one to be like, we got to deprogram all these bitches from patriarchy. This isn't how we're living. You're a Nobel Peace Prize winner.
Julia: Right. Which I loved. And I loved that. I loved that. It because it reminded me of Black Widow when Scarlett Johansson and Flo go and try and like deprogram all the women and there's that powder that sort of takes them out of it.
Julia: That's what it reminded me of where it was just like, we just got to give you this little bit of knowledge and then you can come back to us. But you don't fully lose the consciousness of what it was like when you were under the spell, but you remember enough to know that that was bad. It was bad.
Natalie: It was a bad time.
Natalie: And honestly, if it were not for Fox News, I do think that that's how easy it would be to deprogram American women because. Everything that America Ferrera said is true, and it doesn't make any fucking sense. Like, I have to breastfeed you, but I also have to suck your cock. It doesn't make sense. Make it make sense.
Natalie: Right. Right. Yeah, I,
Julia: I'm not a proponent of cable news, period. Well, no, who is? I know a lot of people who are on the other side who watch a lot of CNN and sometimes CNN says things where I'm just
Natalie: like, No, it's all just part of the propaganda machine. But that was also the beauty. of Barbie is that even with patriarchy, they didn't have a sense of media or propaganda, right?
Natalie: Because it was all still too new that you could easily just be like, girl, you sure you're a Nobel Peace Prize winner, right?
Julia: Right. And that's the other part of it, too, that I think. So here's here's another thing that another thought thing I had that I was saving for today. Because like you like you might you commented on how A lot of people are talking about Feminism 101.
Julia: I've heard a lot of people talk about, well, maybe there are a lot of women who still need this sort of basic message. You and I have had conversations offline about how there are people in our lives who are pro equality, but then yet there are aspects of their lives that they're still choosing to do to uphold patriarchal standards.
Julia: And I think... Because all of us are in a different place in our journey of womanhood and our understanding of where we fit. There are women who are going to sit through this movie and weep and feel seen and feel understood and feel heard and then are still going to go back to their role in patriarchy because their hand they feel their hands are tied.
Julia: And then there are women who have broken from it and have deprogrammed it from it enough that they're going to be pissed and annoyed that this was the Barbie movie we got. And then there are going to be women who are like, I just. I'm going to enjoy it and I didn't and it's fine. And then, you know, so there's a lot of options here with how we feel about this film.
Julia: And how people feel about this film. But I think as long as we still have a large subsect of women who are feeling seen and heard, but then not empowered enough to change their position and start to deprogram from the systems that oppress them, the message is never going to change. We're always going to see sort of this feminism 101 type of concept coming from female led films.
Natalie: Right. Because. Okay, so. While we are all on different steps of our journey and maybe I'm at Feminism 401 or whatever because I have a podcast Yeah, as a country as like the overarching country I would still be like, Oh, we're still at feminism 101. They just took my abortion rights away this summer, right?
Natalie: They don't want me to have body autonomy because then they know I'll never marry them at, in a shotgun wedding scenario.
Julia: You know, we're not going to do such a sex education because then how, why would we want you to understand how your body works and how to prevent pregnancy? Uh, look at what's happening in Florida right now.
Julia: I mean, I know Florida is making a lot of headlines for what they're doing, but it's like if it's being upheld, In ways that exist. Like you're mentioning losing our abortion rights and all these other ways. So those are like plugs back into the system to keep us from breaking out of it. And I think that, and it goes back.
Julia: I feel like our country is way too big and not in population. And I mean, like in culturally, because California is What California can do and the people who live in California. And when you think about all the progress we've made in California versus what's existing in other states, it's almost like, how do you create an art piece like a film that's created from IP that is for everybody when all of our country is in various states of distress.
Julia: Well,
Natalie: and that's why in all of the dystopian novels, we're, uh, broken up into at least 12 districts. Right? Like, the first thing that happens in dystopia is that they're like, America is too big and therefore we will section it off based on land masses. And then Europe just gets to watch us and be like, Look, we're so silly.
Natalie: Notice how none of the dystopian novels...
Julia: Take place in Europe,
Natalie: Europe. They're always just fucking watching us.
Julia: Yeah, that's true. That's a really good point because it is really frustrating sometimes because I live in a red community. Like where I live is red and sometimes purple. And so it's like when people are so mad that it's feminism 101, I'm like, no, I went.
Julia: And sat in a movie theater with women who are not getting messages or affirmed that they have autonomy in my Californian community.
Natalie: Yeah, there are so many things that distract women from their own power and their own belief systems and their own goals. And it is motherhood. It is Wifery. . Mm-hmm. . It is girl boss culture.
Natalie: It like, there's so much at play when it comes to being a woman. Yeah. Being an African American in America. Being a trans woman. A trans man being any part of the queer community, any part of the non-white community. There's so much that's going in your head at all times that there are days where I'm feminist 101, and I'm like, carry my heavy bags for me.
Natalie: I am weak, and my wrists be hurting. And it's just because, and I think one of my bullet points is this idea that like, The Barbie movie couldn't do enough for us because women can't do enough for us and we've been told that for eons Yeah,
Julia: yeah, and it's almost like what okay, so I understand, you know We need to have this conversation about Barbie like that's a huge thing about like oh why we didn't like it It had this conversation so important.
Julia: I get that Like with black films. Why is it that we expect? a film for a specific community to answer and be the answer for everything. Like, why can't it just exist?
Natalie: Right? Why can't it just exist? Like, did I want more
Julia: Issa Rae? 100% I did. Always. Because I am a little more Issa Rae. A little uncomfortable with how much they've used her for the press.
Julia: tour prior to the strike for how little she's in the movie. But that's, that's a different conversation.
Natalie: Yeah, I, and I get it. Ken is in it a lot. But he's also the villain.
Julia: Because I was thinking about that the other day. I was like, who who would be the Barbieland villain if it were not Ken?
Natalie: Capitalism.
Natalie: Will Ferrell.
Julia: But he lives in the real world. Right.
Natalie: But I'm assuming in this movie where we're not making Ken the villain, the real like Mattel starts fucking around with like Barbie cannon or whatever, and it starts to affect Barbieland. And therefore they have to go like. Kidnapped
Julia: Will Ferrell. Like in the alternative version?
Julia: Yeah, like in
Natalie: the, in the, in the version I just wrote in my mind. Yeah,
Julia: yeah, because I know, because a lot, people are really upset with how much screen time the Kens get and the Kens have.
Natalie: Oh, well, let's prepare ourselves for something we never thought I would say. Okay. Movies about misogyny and patriarchy in allowing women to talk about misogyny and patriarchy are the only stories you're ever going to catch me say that's exactly the type of movie that men should be the center of.
Natalie: Fuck Superman. Fuck the Justice League. Uh, thank you Greta for making sure that women never have to sit through the nine hour Justice League ever
Julia: again. Can we just talk about how when she, when that joke was thrown in about Seeing the Zack Snyder cut of whatever it was. Justice League, Spider Man, Superman.
Julia: I don't know. It's Justice League. I fucking howled. I died. Because every movie bro on the planet is like, this is the greatest cut of all
Natalie: time. You don't get it. You get so much more out of the nine hours.
Julia: No, I don't. When my son and I, when, when it was finally on demand, my son and I were like, okay, well, let's watch it.
Julia: Cause we didn't see it in the theater. We missed it. And we turned it on. And then we were like, four hours. This movie's four fucking hours. Are you fucking kidding? And then an hour and a half into it, it's like, this movie is dumb. Like this is such a, this is, this is dumb. There's no reason. There's no reason.
Julia: Like, I mean, I think we finished it, but it was, like, begrudgingly.
Natalie: I was told to break it up into three parts, and I was like, that's three I have to break up a movie into three separate viewings, you can go fuck yourself, is basically what I'm saying. So, If we, if Greta's true goal was, I am going to use Barbie as a platform to present Feminism 101 to women who have bed partners.
Natalie: I don't know what Greta's like. I mean, Greta had to work with her husband on this movie so that it could even get made. So maybe Greta's feeling some things currently. I don't know. Call me, Greta. We can talk. So if Greta's whole point is I am going to make a giant machine of just patriarchy and misogyny awareness, the men have to be at the center.
Natalie: It is their fault that we have patriarchy and misogyny because we have been screaming about all of these ways that they could be making it better and they do not. And they just whine at us like, Oh my God. My, one of my favorite parts is I just have to take 10 seconds to breathe and think and immediately.
Natalie: Penn is like, what am I supposed to be doing? I'm bored! I'm so bored! I
Julia: hate it when people think. I hate it when people think. What am I supposed to
Natalie: do when people think? Uh, uh, uh. That's what men have been doing about like, pushing back on mis on misogyny and patriarchy awareness. Why do you have to talk like that?
Natalie: Why do you have to make it out like we're all part of the problem? I go, because We're all part of the it's we were all part of the problem because we've all lived with internalized misogyny. Yeah
Natalie: Okay.
Julia: Also, what I've learned in dating is that if you tell me you're a good guy, you're not a good guy, because good guys don't tell me, they show me. Here's Good guys never talk about how they're a good guy. They're just a good guy.
Natalie: And here's what we all should have taken away from the Barbie movie. It can happen to all of us.
Natalie: It took Ken 10 minutes. He went to one office and he's like, I should get to be a doctor. Yeah. I have something
Julia: sharp. Right. I should be able to do surgery. So I think the more
Natalie: deprogram, this is what deprogramming looks like for me currently as a feminism in course 401. The reason why men are at the center of the Barbie movie is because men are at the center of misogyny and patriarchy. So now women are dumping their boyfriends and their husbands at alarming rates. And we know I love that.
Natalie: I'm always promoting that. But it's me walking through my everyday life as a human woman going, is that my friend talking to his wife like that, Mr. I'm a good guy? Is that my friend sitting through her boyfriend completely disregarding her needs? Like any but he's a good guy. He's all right is, is that me watching my friend get passed by on a promotion because she's so emotional and may have a baby one time one day.
Natalie: Is that what I'm watching? And it's just They have to be at the center of the movie because they're the problem. Cuz it's the problem. I'm oh my gosh If we cut this as a soundbite and the incels find out that I actually said it that they're the problem
Julia: Well, I put you in witness
Natalie: protection. I know I might have to take to the woods Yeah, but this whole idea that like well I just feel like the Barbie movie could have made a stronger point.
Natalie: It's like, what strong point have you made today? Let me
Julia: know. Well, and that goes back to our conversation about our friends who do believe in feminism and equity and equality and all these things, but yet their entire lives are still upholding the systems of patriarchy and they're raising their children in that and they're not doing anything to stop the cycle, um, of not.
Julia: They're stopped the cycle of the patriarchy. So that way the next generation can do a little bit more of a little bit more forward. And that's the part that's where I am in my level of, you know, feminism is that I don't have time. I don't have the patience. I have never been a person where men have shown up for me.
Julia: It's always been my fault that I'm a single parent. It's always been my fault that I can't seem to find a job that pays me a livable wage. It has always been my fault for the reason why my life is the way that it is. And there's never been any grace given to me for the systems that are in place that sort of kind of get in the way that I'm struggling to navigate.
Julia: And now at 39 years old, I'm over here going, I'm not fucking playing those games anymore. I'm done. I'm done. Figuring out my own shit, you can either be a loving, supportive person, or you can get the fuck out and not everyone's there.
Natalie: Well, and the thing of it is to not only is everything my fault, but it is also my responsibility to find the grace in it being my fault.
Natalie: And that's why Barbie had to apologize to Ken, because we've all apologized to make sure that we live one more day. You
Julia: know, I saw a thing that said, how amazing is it that Barbie lives in a world where she can reject a man's advances and not be fearful of the consequences, because that's a reality too, that we live in.
Julia: And, you know, it is very, we do have to, and I hate it when People are like, Oh, women are so calculating is it if it's negative and it's like, well, yeah We have to figure out how to stay alive every day, right?
Natalie: I am the only person who is ensuring that I live to the next day Because I have as we know dumped Made uncomfortable made insecure so many men that it is a miracle that I stand alive today I just feel like none of my exes or the men in my life have the energy the gumption or Frankly give a damn about me enough to actually murder me.
Natalie: So Well, and
Julia: that's the thing. I mean, and that's the thing that's like this whole like, oh, it's men bashing. It's men bashing. And it's like, well, think about all the movies that we, you and I have discussed or just that get discussed on my show in general, where women are. Portrayed in a very negative way and it's the mentality of like, just be grateful that you even have a character who represents you.
Julia: Who's a woman, why do we have to do more than that kind of mentality? And I'm not saying that like Greta was like, Oh, we're going to do kind of the same thing. What I'm saying is, is that we are not allowed or afforded the opportunity to be flawed. We have to still have everything perfect. at execution.
Julia: And I think that's why it kind of bothers me whenever when people are like, Oh, this movie sucks. Like they could have done more. It's like, we haven't had a whole lot of opportunity to do more. Like you said earlier, like, you can't expect the first time we do, we don't have a ton of stories to go on, like I was on a podcast a couple weeks ago that was like, what is this movie?
Julia: Like, that's one of the questions. And I was like, nothing, no notes. I have no notes. After spending time on Tik TOK, there's been a lot of comparisons. And the one that stuck with me the most. Is Black Panther, you have this interloper who comes in and says, Hey, look, this is how the world is other places. We need to do that here.
Julia: And then destroys the society that's been isolated for ever. And that's essentially, you could say Black Panther, or you could say Barbie because both of those things are true. My, where was my point? My Chadwick Boseman.
Julia: Oh, he's so hot. R. I. P. Also hot. Get back on the gram, Michael. We've been missing your post. But, I guess my point is, is that a lot, there was, people criticized Black Panther, too. Yeah. So, until we have, like, an industry that is truly equitable for the people who are creatives and wanting to tell stories, it's hard, it's hard for me to crit, like, I, I, if I'm gonna criticize, I think I want it to be in the root of Um, something constructive rather than just like unrealistic.
Julia: I don't know if that makes sense because sometimes I feel like some of the general criticisms are just like unrealistic.
Natalie: Well, and I, and again, there was no winning. If we had just made a fun Barbie movie, if it was just literally like the live action, yeah, the princess and the pauper, a classic Barbie film, um, if it was just a reboot of life size.
Natalie: I truly feel like it would have done okay at the box office. It never would have been the number one. Like, we've, we've gotten some play ladies out of this movie. Mm hmm. Um, the, I mean right now, we beat Oppenheimer. We beat Oppenheimer, and that's about a bomb and a war, and men love to cry about bombs and wars.
Natalie: They
Julia: sure do. The other thing that I think about, too, with this film is how a lot of people were like, well, we didn't even know what it was about because the marketing, da da da, and I was like, okay. I feel like if they had given us a full three and a half minute trailer, It would it not doomed is not the right word, but it would have been a, uh, created a self fulfilling prophecy of failure, because how do you create a trailer for a movie that's about intellectual property that isn't going to.
Julia: Leave people feeling like it's not worth it to see it. Like I think that they could have made a trailer for it. I think it was intentional for this for us to be sort of in the dark about the truth about what was going to happen in this film. Because the internet. you give us a little bit and everyone's going to jump on it and critique and criticize and never give it a chance.
Julia: Or you could just do this fun party type of marketing campaign to get people excited and hope they show up and then they did show
Natalie: up. And then they did. Um, I also have a note on My
Julia: outline, I feel like I'm not doing enough today to be very smart about all the things I wanted to say about Barbie
Natalie: and today I wrote in my journal, I was like, this is going to be the easiest recording of my life because Jules has been taking notes for four weeks about what she wants to talk about,
Julia: about the Ferrera.
Natalie: I think, I think we discount the, I didn't play with Ken line from America Ferreira and then Barbie being going, going, yeah, he's a relevant
Julia: people have completely missed that line. You and I've had this conversation,
Natalie: but I think also that line is a direct reflection and a parallel play moment in a dump into America Ferreira's Marriage because we don't even know that she has a husband until we're well into the movie.
Natalie: And then the kids like, should we tell dad that we're going on Barbie vacay? And America was like, why? And I was like, fair.
Julia: Is that even when she says I didn't even get to go on that trip that I won because of whatever reasons I was like. That's like my vacation time. And it's this moment of like, yeah, all of my vacation time, whenever I had vacation time was used for, you know, taking my kid to do something that needed to be done.
Julia: None of it was actually used for vacation. It was just to supplement my income. So that way I didn't lose my income because something happened that I had to cater for and care for someone else. Like there were so many little things like that. As well. I do love that it was America Ferrera's real husband in real life.
Julia: Oh, I didn't know that.
Natalie: Good for that guy. Yeah. I hope he's not that bad at Spanish. That will make me very upset.
Julia: I wouldn't, I would be surprised because I, she's fluent and I wouldn't, I would imagine she speaks with her children in Spanish. I would if I was bilingual. I feel like. Correct.
Natalie: Oh, it was, um, I don't know if anyone watched the Prime.
Natalie: Show the power but
Julia: all no cuz I want to read the book first
Natalie: got it But in it like it's the guy from the menu Louie's it's not Louise Guzman. I don't know. But anyways, he's talking a lot
Julia: of people in the menu There's a lot of guys in the menu. I mean,
Natalie: he's a movie producer that my fake internet friend Amy Carrero from critical role is This, um, assistant for.
Natalie: But anyways, he teaches his kids in that show Fluent Spanish, and Tony Collette can never actually understand what they're talking about when they speak in Fluent Spanish. Is that John Leguizamo? Yes, that's exactly who I'm talking about.
Julia: Okay, thank you. Sorry, go ahead. I, it was killing me. I needed to know.
Natalie: That's okay. Lewis was in my head because I got to give Lewis, uh, another fake friend of mine from the internet, from Critical Role, a friendship bracelet on Saturday. So, clearly, I only have room for one man's name in my head. But yeah, the like, I didn't prioritize Ken. And therefore, I subtly put into my subconscious, I don't have to prioritize this man over whatever it feels like I have to do.
Natalie: Right now, I'm saving Barbieland. Why should he get, uh, an opinion?
Julia: Right. Ken is completely superfluous. Um, I, and I told you this and I shouldn't have because I should have saved it for today because as we know, if I say things out loud before I say them on the show, I forget them and it's hard for me to bring them back.
Julia: I am shocked that people missed that line because it's as they're traveling back to Barbie land. And she in it in to me, it felt very in my face, making it very clear that Ken is not an item we are concerned with, therefore, answering the questions, like all the complaints that people had about all the Ken stuff, I was like, that answered it for me, because everything else after that came back to that one line.
Natalie: Right, you know why the Ken's had time to have like choreographied bat dance battles is because they don't have jobs, right? They're
Julia: not why they have time They're not they're not in Congress Because and so for me it was like We're setting it up. Ken is superfluous. No one plays with Ken. I don't know anybody who played with Ken.
Julia: And when Ken did come around, he, he, he, he served a very specific purpose. And it
Natalie: was, yeah. And it was mashing them together. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was like, of course I played with Ken. I created soap operas with my Barbies, but it was literally just like, Yeah, smash, smash, smash, smash, scissors, scissors, scissors.
Julia: Right, right. Um, should
Natalie: we get a sequel? Should we get a sequel? And I know that it's like controversial about whether or not we need a sequel, but should we get a sequel? I would like said sequel to focus on America Ferrera finding her happiness again. Because I do not think that one trip to Barbie Land is enough.
Julia: No, but it did sort of piece together her relationship with her daughter. And I know a lot of people are really upset about how that didn't get enough attention. Again, not the point of the movie. But I do feel that the resolution where her daughter leans her head on her and then she just like grabs her in her arms.
Julia: I thought that was a huge moment. Because how often are relationships with teenage daughters and mothers contentious and the lack of physical touch is present. So for her to, for her daughter to physically touch her after recoiling from her In every memory we're given in her middle school life completely for them to go through this thing to save Barbie land and she wants to lean into her mom and feel affection that way to me was powerful.
Julia: Yeah. With that said, Always. The sequel thing. I've, I've heard already that Greta's like, absolutely not. I'm not in charge of a sequel. Secondly, I don't want this to turn into a bring it on situation where you have this very powerful first movie that talks about all these social dynamics and racial issues in such a beautiful and easy to understand way to make sequels that are literally just about cheerleading.
Julia: I don't
Natalie: understand why not. I don't understand why not. Natalie! I love a good movie that's only about cheerleading. I do. I, I love. There are certain, like, um, dramatic ballerinas, dramatic cheerleaders, and dramatic figure skater movies. I'm like, yeah. I'ma watch that. I
Julia: mean, yeah, but don't call it Bring It On.
Natalie: Well, yeah, also. But, that brings me to the fact that capitalism ruins Ruins everything. So they had to call it brain and on even if it's not a brain and on movie, right? Because they were like people will accidentally watch it on Netflix if it's called bring it on
Julia: correct, correct It's like it's like can we get a frozen situation?
Julia: Frozen, okay frozen to fucking phenomenal. No,
Natalie: man, and I told my sister I was like you Just wait until you hear this. I'm just Ken song I was like, because it's better than I'm lost in the woods from Frozen 2. And she's like, nothing is better than Kristoff just being like, I'm lost in the woods. It's singing about how Anna doesn't even notice.
Natalie: I
Julia: love it. The thing I want to go back to the dream ballet really quickly because I think I did say in the interview I did a few weeks ago. It reminded me of Gene Kelly. It reminded me of the Gene Kelly dream did
Julia: this man make a movie without a dream ballet? If he did. texted to me because I've not seen it. Um, and I've seen almost all of his movies. Um, and I thought that, and I just, so I really loved that. And I didn't hate that it was the Ken's that had the big number because it felt very much like he, he's having a moment and he's trying to figure it out and he's going through this sort of identity crisis again.
Julia: Um, And I just thought it was so beautifully done through Dream Ballet and it made me so happy and I don't know my bias because I love fucking Dream
Natalie: Ballets. Also, I think that when you say that the Ken's got the only big flashy number, it's a real insult to that opening
Julia: number of Barbie. Yeah, well I'm, I say that because that's what other people are saying.
Julia: Yeah,
Natalie: no, but I'm talking to them personally. I'm like, do you not, we had glittery jumpsuits. Fuck yeah. They had Ken making incel face. Like. That was, I mean, people, no one's learning the Knuff, uh, choreography on TikTok. They're learning.
Julia: Everyone's learning the Barbie dance party.
Natalie: When he's like, Barbie, can I come over tonight?
Natalie: And she's like, sure. Nothing's going on. I just have like a really big disco party planned with the girls and the other Ken's and we're going to do choreographed discography. And he's like, cool. And every night is girls night. It did break my heart when she said not every night had to be girls night. And I was like, every night is girls night.
Natalie: Every, he, you're everything. He's just Ken. It was a very big, like, you are the son from Grey's Anatomy. You are the son, not him.
Julia: Um, I don't know the grades I know you referenced, but I'm going to nod and be like, yeah, I get you. You know, what's interesting too, as I was thinking about it more, it's like, I really do.
Julia: So I had a relationship with somebody. We had seen each other a lot over the course of two weeks and I was really missing my friends. And I had said like, Hey, I really, on Friday, I'm just, I really want to go see my friends. Like they're planning this thing. I'm going to go. I really miss them. Blah, blah, blah.
Julia: Solemn faced. I'm. The response was a very solemn, sober looking face. And it was just like this moment of like, that's when I kind of knew it's like, this isn't going to work, because if you are going to have that response, whenever I want to see my people, we're going to have a problem.
Natalie: No, fuck that guy.
Natalie: Probably has bodies in his basement. All right. What is your biggest takeaway from
Julia: the Barbie movie? I think my biggest takeaway was Neither patriarchy nor matriarchy serves people. It needs to be cooperative That was my biggest takeaway.
Natalie: I feel like that was a lot of people who's complaining big takeaway to like Why don't they want the Ken's?
Natalie: To do anything and I was like, well, look how well they were doing at beach and Overthrowing the government.
Julia: Okay, but I'm not I'm not
Natalie: angry. I'm just saying I'm just saying like I'm all for cooperation with the vase
Natalie: Cause it's,
Julia: cause it really, cause it, to me, it was like, patriarchy is bad. Matriarchy is not bad, but it's also not inclusive to all the residents who live here. So what is the true solution? We have to figure that out for ourselves in Barbie land. You
Natalie: know who disagrees with you? Robert Downey Jr. Have you seen that clip where it's like, Robert Downey Jr.
Natalie: How do you feel about an entire society ran by women? He's like, I've been saying for decades that that's what's supposed to be happening.
Julia: So I have seen that clip. I love that clip. I think that if you're only wanting to live in white feminism, that is the answer. Yes. Yes. I think that when... Because I think for me, if you want to bring the, the levels of race involved, if we were one society and racism didn't exist, sure.
Julia: But that's not... Yeah, it right. Like, we have to consider this movie is written through the lens of white racism or white feminism, whether or not you agree with that, not you specifically, but people listening. And then also, it could be like, sort of a satirical commentary on white feminism if you want to go down that road.
Julia: And if that is the true case, then like, we can't exist within a matriarchy that is primarily through the lens of white feminism.
Natalie: Correct? Because that would be icky.
Julia: It would just leave the rest of us women out in a way and it would be, in my mind, it would be just like patriarchy in the, in the line of, but we're equal.
Julia: Why are you mad?
Natalie: Yeah. No. Agreed. I think my biggest takeaway is honestly, there will be so many days. Um, in September 2023 and beyond, where I will have to sit in the feminine joy that was this summer between the heiress tour, Stevie Nicks. The Barbie movie, making friendships for any and every event I should, I could go to, having those friendships then lead me, having those friendship bracelets then actually lead me to friendships with talented people I admire.
Natalie: Or even just getting my name to talented people. I admire there will be so many days where I will want to hold in the feeling that I felt for the events of summer 2023 and the feminine joy. Yeah, and I think when it comes to Barbie and Taylor Swift, Taylor Swift is capitalism. Barbie. We know it. She's probably also white feminism.
Natalie: Barbie. We know it. Yeah, in the movie. When, um, when Margot Robbie calls herself stereotypical Barbie, the little girl goes, What up, white savior Barbie? Yeah, there's gonna be a lot of flaws, but I got to take the wins where there are wins. And and if feminine joy is always going to be something that is attacked, then I want to hold on to this feeling that 2023 gave me.
Natalie: I
Julia: love that. I love that. And we didn't even touch on the stereotypical typical Barbie of it all because that literally is the lens that this film is through. She's supposed to be perfect. She's supposed to be all these things. So you're mad because she was upset because she's getting cellulite. Well, she's stereotypical Barbie like cellulite
Natalie: Didn't exist in Barbie land and all of a sudden I looked at my thigh and it, as a woman who lives in the real world, if something weird has happened on my skin, I was, I'm like, well, you think that is.
Julia: I mean, how the fuck did we open this show? Your hand had a splotch on it.
Natalie: I'm like, do you think this is the end for me?
Natalie: Like, I've been obsessed with my cat's eye goop all week. And it's because I've rubbed lotion into the shower, which she rubbed into her eye. I've spent this entire recording rubbing suntan lotion in my eye. And then being like, I can't understand why my eye hurts. But yeah, it would be startling.
Natalie: Everything that happened to Barbie was startling because it was a surprise that she had never encountered before, right? Barbies don't age the fact that she was aging is an alarm moment. Yeah. Yeah So anyways, also, why can't we just take the win that we now all know that Margot Robbie has cellulite or at least let them Put cellulite makeup on her
Julia: That
Natalie: okay.
Natalie: Margot Robbie. You did a hell of a job You did a hell of a job in your output
Julia: slap. I remember something I wanted to bring up and I totally just remembered it right now and I'm so sorry because I know we're getting ready to close out the show. Go for it. Indulge me. Thank you. Thank you so much. This is why we're good friends.
Julia: Um, and collaborators. There's a video clip circulating where Brad Pitt is referring to Margot Robbie as a Barbie when they're doing promo for Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, and she takes serious offense to it. Like, I'm not a Barbie. Don't call me that. I'm not a Barbie. And people were sort of pointing to that as like a kind of, you know, insert.
Julia: Dumb stuff here. Here's the difference to me when I saw that a man referring to you as a Barbie because men don't understand what Barbies mean to us, what they are. They're only hearing maybe necessary. There may be only hearing the discourse about how she's a detriment to feminism and she sets feminism back 50 years.
Julia: We heard that speech from, you know, Sasha in the beginning of the film. Um, that was not my experience with Barbies. Barbies were always fun, imaginative, look at what you can accomplish type of shit versus. Margot Robbie choosing to be Barbie versus us choosing to be a version of a Barbie that's empowered, what have you, like, that's the difference.
Julia: Like when a man calls you a Barbie, it's an insult. When we call ourselves a Barbie, it's an empowerment. Right.
Natalie: I, um, the thing about Margot Robbie saying that she don't call me a Barbie, it, it reminds me of like the fake discourse that people are trying to like stir up about how Amy Schumer walked away from this project, right?
Natalie: And I'm like, leave Amy Schumer alone. I don't think. Like, now we've all just made up that Amy Schumer thought that she was too good to play Barbie. Right. And I was like, well, number one, she did say the project just wasn't what I thought it was. So I said, no thanks. Um, and how they're trying to be like, Amy Schumer hates the Barbie movie.
Natalie: She hates feminism. Um, she just wanted to be funny Barbie lady. And then making comments about whether or not her body can, uh, uphold the Barbie image. And I'm like. Fuck everybody. What if Amy Schumer wanted to go to the Barbie movie? What if she wanted to wear the Elle Woods costume to the fucking Barbie movie with all of her friends?
Natalie: Now y'all have ruined it. Yeah. Stop pinning women against one another. That. It was something she said a decade ago when she had, when, you know what, I got another offer. Mm
Julia: hmm. I said at some point in the recording that I've never had men show up for me. I want to amend that just ever so slightly. After I found myself in single motherhood, there were a handful of male friends who did show up for me when I did need it, and that really meant the world.
Julia: Do I know now if whether or not there are Ken or an Alan? I sure don't. But at the time, it meant a lot. For me, the Barbie movie represents so much. I really did love it. From Margot Robbie's portrayal of stereotypical Barbie and her ability to act without words, Ryan Gosling just leaning into being Ken, the sets, the hand painted and beautiful...
Julia: Reminiscent of the movies before computers got involved sets, the dance numbers and music absolutely love the transition from the song pink being the jam to get the morning going and the lyric change to represent the shift in Barbie. So, so smart. And then of course, Billie Eilish's song, well, that just left me weeping.
Julia: So we're going to leave it at that. I still haven't read any criticisms or reviews because I want to exist in this space where Barbie has reminded me that I have personally come a long way, but yet there is a long way to go. I have so many conversations with people about pop culture and one of the reasons why this show exists.
Julia: Is because storytelling is still very predominantly white and challenging that I think is important. And Barbie is a story of a white girl by a white director who ultimately can walk through the world similarly, but not exactly the same as stereotypical Barbie. It also leaves me to wonder how long before we get to a point where white feminism isn't in charge of feminism and non-white women, especially black women, aren't asked.
Julia: Why do you have to see and understand the struggles of others when you have no experience with it personally and I find myself Often saying to my white friends, I literally don't know how to explain this to you. So you understand why this is the action or decision I'm taking, or this is the fee. This is why I'm having the feeling I am having.
Julia: I could probably get away with saying I'm Italian and that be a satisfactory answer for people trying to understand why I'm. I'm tan in December. So I, I feel like I'm in this weird space of, you know, I understand what it's like being a person of color in America, but I also understand that I could probably explain away why I'm brown and people would accept it.
Julia: Um, and possibly treat me better over on Natalie's show, we discussed our manifestations and if you want to know what they are, you got to head on over to her show to hear them. Natalie has an Etsy shop, no niche for Nat. It's linked in our show notes so you can check out her bracelets and other things she has in her store.
Julia: She is the host of to all the men I've tolerated before. And if you haven't subscribed, do it because she has some amazing guests coming up to talk about some really interesting topics. And the angle she's taking on these topics, it's not anything you've heard before. We also co host Still Comfy together and that show resumes in September.
Julia: You can catch it on YouTube by subscribing to Pop Culture Makes Me Jealous on YouTube. Pop
Julia: Culture Makes Me Jealous. It's an independent podcast produced, written, and edited by me, your host. And I'm really glad you're here. If you want more fun, join our jelly pops studio audience for just 5 a month. The membership gives you access to bonus content, our back catalog and a social hour via zoom where we discuss pop culture.
Julia: It's so much fun and I would love to see you there. Y'all. Thanks for tuning in until next time.
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