Episode 13 | I Don’t Know How She Does It

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Julia: Hey friends, this is Pop Culture Makes Me Jealous. And I’m your host, Julia. And on today’s show, Tracy Stanger is back and we are talking about, I Don’t Know How She Does It .

Julia: You shouldn’t have to choose between work and family and let’s face it as moms. We are often put in that position, whether we work for ourselves or we work for someone else. Tracy Stanger can help you learn how to create flexible business that allows you to pursue your dreams. Even with little ones, trying to take up all of your time.

Julia: I remember when my son was little, getting anything done was kind of. An interesting hurdle in life, but I overcame it with a little bit of stress, a lot of stress, a little bit of heartache, and we’ve come through to the other side, but I’m here to tell you, Tracy has figured out a way to make that easier.

Julia: So head on over to Tracy stanger.com to learn more about how to build your dream business, make the impact you’re meant to make on this world and be the kind of mom you want to be by doing less but better.

Julia: I don’t know how she does. It was released on September 16th, 2011, based on a novel of the same name written by Alison Pearson. But before we get into it, let’s welcome Tracy Stanger. If you’ll remember friends, Tracy was here in season one, episode 21 Death to the Mon Hustle. She is the anti hustled to to-do list trimmer who helps you do less, but better.

Julia: Tracy. Welcome back to the show. 

Tracy: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited for this conversation. 

Julia: I’m excited you were willing to a number one, come back and be number two. I feel like we’ve become like, like actual friends, even though we haven’t met in real life yet since then, I feel like I talked to at least once a week.

Julia: Well, yeah, I didn’t talk to you.

Julia: I love it. We’re just going to collect people here on the podcast, right? Okay. Friends, we’re going to start with a summary of the film, as an employee of a Boston based financial firm Kate Reddy, played by Sarah Jessica Parker, struggles daily to balance the demands of her high powered career with the needs of her husband played by Greg Kinnear and children.

Julia: When she gets an account that requires frequent trips to New York and her husband gets a new job. Kate finds herself spread thinner. Complicating Kate’s life even more is a new business associate Jack Abel hammer, Pierce Brosnan, who throws temptation into the. The week of its release through reviews were well, let’s just offer some headlines so you get an idea. 

Julia: The New York times ran a review titled “Even a things to do list seems to be multitasking.” Indie Wire’s headline said,” I don’t know how she does it is that pained unfunny, politically questionable bore.” The Chicago Tribune’s headline read, “I don’t know how she does it. No. How no way, like real life.”

Julia: The book, however, has a slightly different description, “hedge fund manager, wife, and mother of two, Kate Reddy manages to juggle nine currencies in five times zones and keep in step with the Teletubbies. But when she finds herself awake at 1:37 AM in a panic over the need to produce a homemade pie for her daughter’s school, she has to admit her life has become unrecognizable. With a panache wisdom and uproarious wit I Don’t Know How She Does It is brilliantly dramatize the dilemma of every working mom. 

Julia: So we’re focusing on the movie in this episode, but you know, me, since it’s a screen adaptation from a book, Tracy and I read the book and we’ll be discussing both naturally not forced at all. I’d also like to point out that every review I found from 2011 was written by men.

Julia: And I’m not saying men can’t review a movie like this. I will say that from experience, I have an overwhelming amount of married friends whose husbands are not helpful with house chores or kids. So it would have been nice to hear a woman’s perspective, which is why Tracy and I are doing this episode for you today.

Julia: In the earlier mentioned in Indie Wire article writer, Drew Taylor had this to say, “The movie makes great pains to stress, how large the stakes are, that Kate’s job in marriage are both nearing apocalyptic meltdowns, but the movie is so insubstantially frothy and good natured that it’s hard to take any of this seriously.

Julia: I’m going to incline to agree, to an extent the book feels true to me with just how demanding Kate Reddy’s job is with balancing a young family. And the movie feels a little bit like it trivializes it, but I’m curious, Tracy, what are your overall thoughts on the story? 

Tracy: So I might say, yeah, men really have no business reviewing this story.

Tracy: Uh, I don’t think, you know, they’ve been there. They don’t know how real it was or if it’s real or, or any of it. Um, and I actually took the movie as more satirical than those reviewers noticed, like Seth Meyers and busy Phillips characters are jokes, but they’re real. They, you have, and you have to have lived this and heard all of this to realize that.

Tracy: They are all the messaging that we have received constantly throughout our lives, all rolled into one person. And Seth is telling you what a good worker does, and busy’s telling you what a good mom does. And they’ve been point to the fact that like working dads, isn’t even a thing. There’s that little mentioned both in the book and the movie about like, he’s making fun of her for how many help, how many kids she has.

Tracy: And she’s like, you have more, but it’s like not even a thing. Cause the men at work have kids too, but they’re not, but they don’t have the same responsibility or like societal pressure that we have. So I think that the story both ways does address that and like, You would know that as among facing those things, but not, not as one of those dudes.

Tracy: I also thought it was really interesting. It seemed like the movie is trying to make Kate more likable. Like I like, I don’t like Kate in the book. She’s, um more jaded. She’s really resentful toward her husband. And like, you can do that and I’ll still like you as a person, but I’m just related more towards Kate in the movie.

Julia: Okay. 

Tracy: But, so we’re looking in the movie. She’s frigging Carrie Bradshaw. She’s adorable. Pierce Brosnan falls in love with her. She’s thin. She’s all like, she still has good hair, like all of this stuff. And I feel like. I just thought that was really interesting and almost very more American. Right? Cause the book is British and this is our American take on it.

Tracy: And it’s so much more spreading the message of doing it all. Like even this Kate who is like stressed at work and stress at home, still super cute, still thin, um, likable. She misses her kids, whereas in the book she’s more like resentful toward it. And I just think it’s all like a depiction of in quotes, what we’re supposed to be able to do as moms.

Tracy: I did. I thought both versions paint, a pretty realistic picture of what it looks like to be like just the busy-ness of juggling work with life. Um, but like I said, they were a little bit different stories. 

Julia: Yeah. The British person, especially, oh my gosh. The ending. Absolutely. Especially. And we can, we’ll get into that in a little bit too, but you’re right about Kate being more resentful towards her kids in the book, there were a couple of 

Tracy: And her husband , their relationship. I’m like, yes. 

Julia: Oh my gosh. So I cried at the point where her nanny, so she has a nanny Paula and in the book they make these like, she’s goes over and above to make Paula like, please stay Paulo. Our lives are, you know, we can’t function without. 

Tracy: Yeah.

Julia: Which number one is already kind of flawed logic in my mind because women have been living without nannies and having using nannies forever. So. 

Tracy: Yes and no, because when we didn’t have nannies, we had like family health and I don’t think we really have that as much now. Like you do need some sort of outside person, it shouldn’t just be on the parents, which oftentimes falls on just the mom. 

Julia: You’re right. Is it that sort of communal style living too, right when we had like the multi-generational lifestyle? I don’t know if. I don’t know if American culture was ever really fully multi-generational. And in the sense of like, you have multiple families, but you wouldn’t, you didn’t li people didn’t necessarily live far from in-laws or aunts and uncles. And what, not 

Tracy: Or the than mom, essentially. Like if we’re looking at June Cleaver or whatever, like that picture and how things were working in the 20th century, it was like, the mom was the nanny, but like, they always did. There has to be someone who is like there for the kid, whether it’s childcare or the mom, which is essentially like, I don’t know, that’s kind of, that was our job. Right. And you watch the kid. 

Julia: No, one’s allowed you’re not allowed there has to be one primary caregiver. And that is their sole job is to and that’s the structure of our society. I know. There are some, you know, there’s these scenes where whenever they would be like, Hey, can you go and do this right away in a day? And first of all, I don’t people without kids who can jump on a plane the next day with that short of notice, like, is that real life like, do people like that because what is your life that you can be like, sure, I’ll drop everything for my job and get on a plane to do busy work.

Tracy: Your life is your job. And so you’re not dropping any of the in cause that’s. 

Julia: Cause you have no plan, the plans to change. So there you go. But she was just, um, what I, what I wanted to say, like the way she felt like her daughter was so calculated about all of the things, you know, a five five-year-old she’s five in, in both like a five-year-old.

Julia: Be like that. I dunno, maybe a five-year-old is that malicious? That’s not my experience with five-year-olds that they’re not on it yet. 

Tracy: I don’t know, ya, mine’s not there yet. 

Julia: They’re not that calculated yet. They’re not like trying to make you feel awful for being not around. And Kate just took it so personally, and part of me feels like, you know, she’s internalizing what society’s telling her. She needs to be. And not actually like seeing at face value that her daughter is just an innocent, who just wants her mom. 

Tracy: Yeah, I think you’re right. And I. Backing up a step. That is the book and the movie like that is the story perpetuating it. Like even the fact that we’re talking about this, like, when we talk about the messaging we pointed out, we’re like still spreading it, but you know what good mom in quotes looks like because of shit like this.

Tracy: And then this.

Julia: I hate that shit. Like I cannot like the home please don’t make bake home. Good homemade goods. Okay. No, I don’t even have that skill of pre-children. Like, don’t expect you to have that skill now as a mom, like, I don’t know how to make a pie. My mother’s tried. I am not, I don’t know how my mother can be excellent pies. That’s a completely different generation.

Tracy: I, yeah, I don’t give a shit about that or, or making it look like you made it yourself, right? We all have. This is what I talk about in my business all the time. We all have our strengths, you go do that so that other people can go do theirs, and then we will all get along just fine, but it doesn’t matter, but it does probably take some deconditioning or reconditioning to not care about that so much, because again, we’ve been listening, like, that’s the message, but I don’t think that’s how it has to be.

Julia: No, I agree. I know. I always joke that I’m not good at full now. I can’t be homeowner in California. I missed the boat on that one. Um, Prior to that because, you know, I say that because a house down the street for me sold in 2016 for a hundred thousand dollars and it just recently sold for $629,000. So I’m like, 

Tracy: it’s crazy.

Julia: Yeah. Missed the boat. But prior to that, I would say things like, oh, I’m not going to be a homeowner until I can pay somebody to do the lawn for me, because one, I don’t want to be the house on the street that looks like it’s going to start a fire any minute with their front lawn and two, like, I know I don’t have the capacity to like get up Saturday morning and mow my lawn, like. 

Tracy: Because of course you don’t because you’re spending so much time making the money that helps you pay for the house. Like it is a totally different system. I don’t know if you’ve seen that meme. That is like our parents’ house just sold for a million dollars or whatever. I. Don’t make as much as they did or whatever. And I couldn’t even afford the mortgage. My rent is more than what they paid on their house that is now worth a million dollars. We are just, it’s totally different 

Tracy: math and it’s impossible. Like the whole, your house is 25% of your income and your food is 10 that’s garbage. That’s not actually do the math.

Tracy: Yeah. There’s that Walmart commercial. We might’ve talked about this before, but there’s this Walmart commercial that I always see where it shows, like here’s what this family spent on groceries at Walmart this week, what a deal. And it’s still like $150. And what if. $8 an hour, $10, even as you’re making $20 an hour, that’s a lot of your income for when we get groceries at Walmart, it makes me feel, 

Julia: I had a, I said to colleagues, I was like, oh, I’ll be, you know, I’m stimulating the economy by hiring the gardener, you know, hiring somebody to move that one.

Julia: And he’s like, that doesn’t count as stimulating the economy. And I’m like, I’m literally contributing to, going to turn around and spend that money on whatever he needs in life. Like, I, I feel like that qualifies. 

Tracy: Yeah. 

Julia: Just because I’m outsourcing something that you think I should be doing myself, it’s it not qualify as stimulating the. 

Tracy: That’s ridiculous. That’s exactly what it is. Is stimulating the economy, spreading the dollars out yeah. 

Julia: I was just like, okay, we’ve got a lot, we’ve got a long way to go. Like I’m not happy with the way that, that thought process is. The story as a whole, I feel like it. Y minus some of the pop culture, celebrity references. It could, she could have released this book this year and it would still be 100% relevant.

Tracy: Oh yeah. I was watching this movie at my desk at my nine to five in 2019, like into your, I was, it was very relatable to me. I like the scene in the movie where she’s like walking down the street away from her house crying because she has to miss the stuff there for the stuff she has to go do at work.

Tracy: Like that was me every day I was crying on my way to work. I was crying at work because I had so much time that I could watch a fucking movie at my desk and still get all my work. Then why can’t I be at home with my kid? It gives me the feels of the busy-ness of trying to do work. Like I 

Tracy: see, I see both takes like are really into their work and I think that’s all of us, like we want to. Do good work and, and have something that we’re good at. And, but also have time with our family. 

Julia: Yeah. I know. I actually was telling somebody the other day at work, because for my position, it’s just make your 40 hours. On paper technically I’m eight to five, but because I work in media, I cover whatever events are happening, whenever they’re happening.

Julia: And so somebody, so people have noticed that sometimes I’m not there on Fridays. And someone’s like, do you know, they made somebody made a comment. And I was like, look, I’m not doing overtime because that takes away time for my family. I don’t give a shit. The overtime is time and a half. I don’t care if I can translate it into more paid time off later, I’m not doing that.

Julia: I, you get 40 hours of my life and that’s it. If there’s a compelling reason for me to do overtime, Say, there’s an actual natural crisis that we have to respond to. Like when I was doing COVID work. Yes. I was working more than 40 hours a week. I was working close to 70 hours a week, but we were dealing with the global pandemic.

Julia: And so pumping out information was relevant. Granted, Saturday and Sunday, I got to work from home, but still, you know, it was like, like, 

Tracy: Don’t act like it was good. It wasn’t good. Number of hours. 

Julia: It really is in a crisis though. You know what I mean? Like I understand I can understand it, but there is absolutely no reason for me to give you more than 40 hours of my life in a week.

Julia: I don’t care that you’re going to pay me overtime. I don’t care that I can bank it as paid time off if I want to, like, none of that shit matters to me because if I’m away for more than 40 hours from my home that’s a problem. Then the house gets to be a disarray. I don’t get it. I don’t get that time with my kid.

Julia: Like, no, I can’t get that shit. I can’t get that shit back. So no, but it took a long time to get to that point for me to be able to have that hard line of like, you don’t get more than this much time of my life. 

Tracy: Yeah. But even it keeps you keep saying like this many hours, this many hours, why can’t it just be the result?

Tracy: And focus on the results and even in the crisis, like, it doesn’t mean you need to be there 70 hours. It means that you’ve got like some more information to share, but does that ha does sharing that information have to take more time or do, can we look at it and figure out how to, like, which information is the most important to get out there and how can you get it out there?

Tracy: The easiest, and maybe even you don’t even have to be there 40 hours. Like the 40 hours thing just boggles my mind. It’s so arbitrary. It’s based even like before computers, like our productivity and what we can get done with 40 hours is so different. And why is it still that more for who cares? Yeah, you need this done.

Tracy: I’ll get you that done. And I’m going to figure out how to do it as soon as possible so that I can stop doing it. 

Julia: Yes. And we will definitely dive a little bit more into that in a bit, because I don’t disagree with you because there’s a lot of hurry up and wait kind of shit. That is not necessary. Anyway, to me, the book felt like Bridget Jones grown up, if Bridget Jones had been a career driven person with any substance, I mean, we love Bridget, but she’s a little flighty. In fact, in 2002, publishers weekly had the same thought, except they noted that the comparison to Bridgette as this K is notably brighter, Whittier and capable of infinitely, deeper shadings of feelings than the flighty, Bridget and her book cuts deeply.

Julia: Later in the review, Publishers Weekly had this to say, “it is delightfully fast, moving and breathlessly readable with dozens of laugh, aloud moments, and many tenderly touching lens. And for once in a book of this kind, there are some admirable men, as well as plenty of bounders toward the end to, to which a reader is reluctant to come.

Julia: It becomes a little plot bound and everything is rounded off a shade too neatly, but as a hilarious and sometimes poignant update on contemporary women in the workplace, it’s the book to beat.” Do. I mean, we talked to, we already talked a little bit about this, that the book movie resonated with you, but let’s talk a little bit deeper about why,

Julia: I mean, for me it was you’re the guest. I should let you go first.

Julia: I think for me, it’s this pressure of, um, You, you have to be Mo you have to be different types of people wherever you are. And, you know, especially like right now, there’s a huge conversation about authenticity, which is fine. I think that we should all be allowed to be who we are and not have to have any reservations about it.

Julia: That’s just not currently the world we’re living in, even though people are striving for that when it comes to parenting and being a mom, because our society is so rooted in mom being caregiver, mom being number one, and mom being the woman, being the person who’s at home and doing all these things.

Julia: There’s some things that I think are really, really hard to, um, that cut really deep. Like when she’s making all of her to-do lists, you know, okay. To do, here’s what, all the things they need to do. And it’s like, some of these things clearly your husband could do for you. So where, what, what is the disconnect that we aren’t having those conversations.

Julia: To how to get our, our spouse, our partner, to take some of that responsibility. Like, oh my God, there was a scene where her it’s not in the movie, but it is in the book where her coworker, there’s a couple of co like a coworker couple that she and her husband got along with and the wife ends up passing away from cancer.

Julia: And it was pretty impressive. You know, she’s re Kate’s reading this list that the wife left for the husband literally outlining everything about their lives and I’m crying because it’s like, yeah, that would be me. I would be that woman. Who’s like, here’s all the things. I’m also a solo parent. So I feel like it’s a little different, but the idea that her husband.

Julia: Literally has no idea how, like what kind of bath soap the kids even used. And the fact that one of the son’s girlfriend’s parents are, I think Indian. And so, like, they’re not super keen on her dating a white kid and how to navigate that delicately. So that way, you know, the families could be harmonious with each other, just it’s so outlined and detailed it.

Julia: One, it broke my heart cause I was like, oh my gosh, that is me. And two, it broke my heart because it’s like, your husband’s job is so demanding and you guys never, so maybe this is your even divide because your husband’s never present. But how sad for your family that your husband’s never present and sad for her because now, you know, he probably worked all the way through his aggressive, her aggressive cancer, and didn’t have the emotional support that she probably needed to get through it. I dunno if that seemed rough to me. 

Tracy: No kidding. Yeah. There’s all kinds of bad in that. Um, I thought it was interesting. So we actually have, I have a paper just like that in our file cabinet that I have taught husband where it is that has not like to the extent of like what to buy, because you know, hopefully this will be very long in the future and it doesn’t matter what kind of bubble bath Poppy uses.

Julia: Right. 

Tracy: But like how to pay our bills and like where that is, who we paid and stuff like that. And it’s, it’s there for him and it’s, it’s sad making it, but also, I don’t know how much of that. Is like, that’s just how it is. Like how much she really had to make that list. I also think that, you know, in the event of my untimely demise, my husband is an adult person and he has been around.

Tracy: So he’s been watching. Maybe you can figure it out. He’ll be a parent, you know, just as, just as I would, you know? Um, but with that, I know a lot of families don’t have that kind of equality and there’s some really good books on that topic. One is called drop the ball where she and her husband literally have like an Excel spreadsheet and they sat together and listed out all the things that have to get done in the house to run the, to run their lines.

Tracy: And they divvied it up so that both are aware of how much is actually getting done, because there’s that mental load people are talking about that, you know, we don’t even realize, you know, you can ask your partner to do something for you, but that’s still you deciding that needs to get done, how to get it done, that it should be that person that does it.

Tracy: Um, so drop the ball is really good about, um, just kind of giving that divvying things up. Yeah. And the fact that you can ask for it. Um, we can also say that I think it’s called, I think it’s called Set Boundaries, Find Peace. I can’t, I see it, um, Set Boundaries, Find Peace, and that’s just a whole bunch of like how to be strong and make boundaries and say, what is good for you and what you need.

Tracy: And then there’s another book called Fair Play that our friend Tami Hackbarth just did a book club on. And, um, I haven’t read it, but it sounds like it’s that same thing. Recognizing your mental load and figuring out a way to share it with somebody. 

Julia: Yeah. That’s actually a big one. The mental load thing, I think, because.

Tracy: That’s what the new list is throughout the book. And that is a woman’s mental load. Like all this stuff constantly running through our heads.

Julia: And it’s, and you don’t, I guess for me, like it kind of felt it was, it was nice to see that there’s, it’s not, it’s, it’s universal, right? Like it’s not just me because there’s things where I’m just like, when I’m thinking about the to-do lists that I make, there’s some stuff on there where I’m just like, this doesn’t need to be on my to-do list.

Julia: Why am I writing this down? Oh, because it’s running through my head and it feels like it’s a thing that needs to get done, but does it really need to get done? And then my friend Tracy’s voice shows up and says, 

Tracy: I was going to say, it’s working, it’s working. 

Julia: And she says that doesn’t need to get done. That’s not a message. That’s not important. And I say, yes, Tracy, it’s not important. So see, we have conversations all the time. 

Tracy: I love it. But I mean, this is like, that’s awesome. That’s exactly where I want us going. It can be in your head, like don’t be grudge yourself or berate yourself for having. Massive mental load. Because again, like we’ve been listening to the messaging, we are trained to think that all of this stuff is ours, but yeah.

Tracy: How good does that feel then writing it down, taking a look at it, sorting this is where that comes from from my course sort version organized, like sort through, get it all out of you and then look through it and go like, really this is me doing, does it need doing it all doesn’t need doing by me?

Tracy: Doesn’t need doing in that way. Could it be done easier and really cutting the crap out of your, to do list? 

Julia: Yeah. It’s like how much of this is me adding this to the list because I feel like I need to have a full list and how much of me adding to the list because, um, I actually eat. Yeah, that’s it, because it needs to be a full list. And I, and I, it’s really sad that we feel like are worth it. Cause we have to work twice as hard. If we’re going to be taken seriously in any industry, we have to work twice as hard. And then if you’re a woman of color, it’s like four times as hard. And so you have to constantly look like your doing something to be considered being productive.

Julia: And that’s really fucking irritating. 

Tracy: That is patriarchy. Like I wanted to talk about this a little bit. Like it’s a patriarchal versus matriarchal. Patriarchal is expectations. Like based on the amount of tasks accomplished, I’m being busy on filling out your to-do list. I’m filling out your planner. Like I’m doing some research right now.

Tracy: Um, I do every year on planners and how they work for you. And the reason that we have problem with planners is because most of them are like, here’s all this blank space for you to fill up with all this stuff you could do. You want to do, you have to do. And it makes no mention of like, what do you actually have time for?

Tracy: How are you? Like what, what plan is actually going to get done? Patriarchy is about how much is accomplished and our adherence to arbitrary rules to being at your desk for 40 hours a week to doing this because it’s the norm matriarchal expectations are based on the results of the tasks accomplished.

Tracy: And we are interested in rules that make the world a better place for humans. Right? I feel like the matriarchal message is more about you. It says you matter, your mental health matters, your strengths matter, your likes and dislikes mattered. All of that is going to actually make a difference. But so we kind of got convoluted with that is that is the difference.

Tracy: You don’t have to have a full to-do list when you’re coming at it from a more matriarchal perspective, but we live in a patriarchal society. And so that’s why you feel like. 

Julia: Yeah. As you were speaking, I was thinking about all the incidents at work that I’ve been a part of where they just there’s a lot of shit. That’s unnecessary, unnecessary. That sucks up my time. And I’m, I’m penalized for being efficient. 

Tracy: Yes. 

Julia: But it’s not always seen as efficiency. And that’s really frustrating. 

Tracy: Yeah. And that’s how I felt at my nine to five too. It was literally my job to streamline processes. Like that’s not what I got hired for initially, but I got into this like.

Tracy: Position. And I started streamlining the processes because that’s just my brain just does that, like, okay, here’s what you want to get done. Let me figure out how to do that. The easiest. So yeah, I get more efficient. We get more work to do. Like, I remember even as a train me, I was doing other people’s work because I’d be like, oh, I’m done.

Tracy: I’m out of my stuff. Can you give me some more I’ll help. And eventually they did at least recognize it a little bit to be like, oh, could you do this to this team? Could you do that to this team? And eventually that turned into just like I was leading the process innovation unit, but it was still not like, what’s the word I’m looking for?

Tracy: Like appreciate it. 

Julia: Yeah. 

Tracy: It wasn’t appreciated. It was still like, oh, she just wants to. This is a problem because she’s going to be out of work. I want to go home. And like, it was a problem towards the end. This is what led to me quitting was me starting to speak up and be like, you know, I’m back from maternity leave. I’m you see that? I’m getting my job done so quickly. Let me go home and do it from there. Or let, let it not be a problem when I have to stay home because my kid is sick from daycare because you know, I’m still getting my work done. Um, you know, I can do it from home. There’s just a sick sleepy baby on me.

Tracy: I could still type an email. Um, and it was a problem. And there was a line in the book actually, that kind of clicked to me on why it was so much a problem because it sets a precedent for others. Because again, in the patriarchal, like we need butts in seats. We need busy-ness. We need, you know, people working all eight hours.

Tracy: If they see someone not and they think they can. Then there, there goes your productivity out the window and that’s not true, but that’s the thought 

Julia: I CA I cannot tell you how I get way more work done at home because nobody’s interrupting me at work. I literally have to keep my door shut because otherwise people will pop up in. And just to chat girl, I don’t got that kind of time. Like I’m on deadline. Like. 

Tracy: You’re trying to get your results 

Julia: Ya, I’m tryna get shit down. I’m trying to get my results. Sometimes having a conversation can spark something, but it’s not the same. Like I’m not going to wander some people literally wander the building just to have conversation. And you’re just like. 

Tracy: Because they’re bored. Cause they don’t actually need to be there for 40 hours a week because there’s not that much work that needs to be done to get the results because 40 hours is arbitrary. It’s all connected. 

Julia: So I feel like this kind of moves into a really good segue for our next topic. Kate’s philosophy is that if you’re a working mother, you have to pretend to be motherless at work. I certainly have been in this position, the pressure of balance, everything is a very late 20th century with a very clear effort to normalize working moms in the 1980s. I’m thinking things like Baby Boom, and the various TV shows that existed.

Julia: Murphy Brown was one of the TV shows like there’s just a whole variety of stuff. And by 2002, an entire generation had been bred and raised by moms doing it all. But the difference between 2002, when the book was first released and 2011, when the movie was released is major. In 2011, the American psychological association reported that working moms tend to be healthier and happier than moms who stay at home. Lead author Cheryl Bueller, PhD, professor of human development and family studies had this to say from the article, I’m pulling this quote directly from the article, “in all cases with significant differences in maternal wellbeing, such as conflict between work and family or parenting, the comparison favored part-time work over full-time or not working. However, in many cases, the wellbeing of moms working part-time was no different from working from mom’s working full-time. The article goes on to mention that part-time work can contribute to the overall wellbeing of the family and employers should consider offering proportional benefits to part-time employees.

Julia: I tried to find, I speak of this article a lot. There’s a Harvard Business Review article. I read years ago that highlighted how productivity dropped after the hour of 3:00 PM for most employees. And it made the case for Workday that either ended at three and, or was shorter in the workweek. So like maybe Monday through Thursday, 32 hours.

Julia: I did find that Harvard Business Review article from 2012 titled Stop Working All Those Hours. So just, I pulled the 2012 article for friends at home because I want to highlight just how long this conversation has been going on consistently. Which makes a case for judging employees by performance, like Tracy mentioned earlier, and not hours of output stating that value isn’t in the hours, one works, but rather than knowledge, they bring. The author later goes on to add “when managers judge their employees by employees work by the time they spent at the office, they impede the development of productive habits by focusing on hours work, instead of results produced, they let professionals avoid answering the most critical question. Am I currently using the time in the best way possible.” Which we’ve all fucking heard in a performance evaluation too, by the way. “As a result, professionals often use their time in efficiently. More recently, this idea is becoming more common in business. And since the start of the pandemic, many businesses have decided to adopt a four-day work week model Tracy, your specialty is to do less but better.

Julia: So I’m dying to know how would you advise Kate ready if she came to you for support? Because I think a lot of people of all types, regardless of what industry they work in struggle to see how dialing back can actually improve productivity 

Tracy: First let me clear my throat let me rev up for this. My advice is always do less but better. It means you only do the most impactful tasks and make it easier to get those things done. And I have a ton of examples here, like nine to five. Does your team really need 100 emails a day? My team was literally getting 100 emails a day. Do they really need that to get their job done?

Tracy: Or could you focus on making your 30 minute morning meeting address all of that and then even work on making that meeting take even less time. So like focus on the thing that actually gets the results and then make that better, improve it, improve it in online business. Do you really need to be on five different social media platforms in order to get enough of your dream clients through the door?

Tracy: Or do you already have enough perfect clients from going to the networking events that light you up where, you know, insert whatever you actually enjoy doing. Do you have to create a course in order to scale your business when you’re actually best at one-on-one coaching, or could you just focus on that?

Tracy: Focus on your coaching processes, streamline them, improve the experience and scale that way, because you’re getting more done in less time. You’re giving a better experience. You can charge more, you’re getting more referrals because your one-on-one clients are enjoying more focusing on less, but doing it better improves just the whole thing.

Tracy: But I want to touch on that too, because it’s proving, we need work that we actually care about. The moms were happier when they were part-time work, because you want work. That makes you feel useful and leaves you time. Life. Like we don’t have time for full-time work. 

Julia: That’s a mic drop right there because. You as well, and men are starting, I’m noticing more men are gravitating towards meaningful work too. So there’s this drive and passion to do meaningful work. And if it’s, if you’re passionate about what you do, it literally doesn’t matter how many hours you put into it because your passion always shines through and elevates you and keeps you moving forward.

Julia: So it’s kind of like, what does full-time work even mean anymore? Like that needs to be re-evaluated. I know the Obama administration, um, did do a lot in trying to re navigate some of those definitions when they were working on the affordable care act. I was part-time at the time when that was happening, which meant that the company I worked for, the government, I wasn’t getting, you know, benefits paid time off health insurance, all that.

Julia: But then when they did the ACA part of the ACA was saying, Hey, if you have employees that are there for 32 hours, Yeah, it’s you still need to offer some sort of something to them. Um, and of course, a lot of companies. 

Tracy: Again, it comes down to hours and not results. What if, what if it was, if your employee is contributing this percent of your output, they’re a full, you know, they are providing you work or, or any other number of something we could measure.

Tracy: It lies at happy hours. What if it’s so many dollars? Like, did you see if there’s a John Deere, uh, union strike right now? Because they made billions in profit this year and they’re giving nothing to the staff. Like they are providing all of the results. They need to get some thing and it’s just goes back to like, it all needs to be focused on results.

Julia: Absolutely. There’s a big movement to, in the creative industry about like, Hey, just because my fee is this much money and I can turn this around to you within so many hours doesn’t mean that you should pay me less. You’re getting my education, my experience, my skillset. It’s not as simple. Sure. You can go to somebody who’s cheaper, but they’re less experienced and you might have to go round and round and round of edits.

Julia: And with me, that’s not likely because I know, you know, we’ll have a clearly written brief of what you want and then I can give you exactly what you want with minor tweaks and that argument, because somebody did a reels on Instagram. About that. And the argument, I was like, oh my God. Yes. Because in my job, it is a creative job, but I work in government.

Julia: So there’s no creativity or hearts. And I cannot tell you how many times I have to go back and forth with people about like, what is your end result? They don’t even know what the end result is. What is the message we’re trying to share? What is it that you’re wanting me to create? And I spend so much time trying to nail that down that by the time I actually get to the production process of like filming and editing and finding music and creating a piece, it literally can take me, you know, it just depends.

Julia: But the point is, is like, there’s so much navigation in the beginning of me. I have to know how to navigate you when you don’t know what you want, but you know, you want. This. 

Tracy: Yeah.

Julia: We need a PSA about this. Cool. What do you, it’s a Publix PSA’s public service announcement. So what are we announcing this back and forth all the time. And there are days where I’m like, I’m good. I’ve gotten all the work I can get done. Done. And cool. It’s noon. 

Tracy: Yeah. So why are you still there? 

Julia: Exactly. Especially when you, I mean, you and I have had the dishes conversation multiple times and I think we even talked to them on the last.

Tracy: Let’s keep it going. 

Julia: Especially when it’s like, you know, not everyone’s lifestyle is the same.

Julia: I live on a shared property, which means we have a shared washer and dryer, which means that if you’re assuming I can do laundry on the weekends, you’re, you’re assuming wrong because Saturday is when the main house does their bulk of cleaning because they also work Monday through Friday. So I don’t like to.

Julia: I probably spent the first year here doing my laundry at a family member’s house, because I couldn’t figure out how to create a schedule for myself to get our laundry done, because doing it at night, wasn’t going to happen. 

Tracy: Yeah. 

Julia: And so there’s just so many variables that like, come like, come on. I always say that weekends need to be three days.

Tracy: Yeah. The one to come down one to actually do all the shit you didn’t do on week one to actually relax maybe. But what I am saying is what if just our lives were like that? What if you like throw in a load of laundry at Monday 9:00 AM and then write your email and then how will actual lunch with your family and then do a work meeting?

Tracy: Like, yeah, it can be. Both you can do both. Um, and you ask, it’s so hard to imagine how dialing back can actually improve productivity. I have a really great example. I’d love to share 

Julia: Absolutely. 

Tracy: My friend, Kristin is a really brilliant ethical sales page writing, like just she’s a copywriter, but she is really in tune with like the psychology and everything.

Tracy: She has been doing this experiment. Like she’s going, she’s going in on the, doing less on the sort of Persian organizing, like looking at what feels good and what didn’t and getting rid of the, what didn’t. So she was saying. She was like really not feeling good posting on her IG feed on Instagram. Like she loves being in stories, but the pressure of creating posts consistently educating that way was just really dragging on her.

Tracy: She was feeling guilty when she wasn’t doing it. She was feeling stressed when she was so she decided to stop. And she came up with a really cool plan and she just created nine posts that are going to live there forever. And it’s like, you know, until she comes up with a different idea, but, um, nine posts that now kind of serves as like a homepage slash sales page for newcomers to her Instagram profile.

Tracy: And it is like leads them on a path that can get to know her. They can, um, understand her values. They learn about her product, but she wants them to know. And she’s done. Like she never has to post to the feed again. Then she just goes to stories to talk about like whatever she wants to, to serve that way, to like grow her community and, and talk with people.

Tracy: And she feels so much better. She’s like so much less stress. Um, she enjoys the stories and she’s making more sales from her sales page template because it’s like, it’s just condensed her messaging so much that it’s working better. So again, less but better. So she’s feeling better. She’s making more sales. She has more energy, right?

Tracy: Cause she’s not working on all those IG posts. So that extra energy and brain space helped her tap into a new idea for a new service. That was even more her. So it’s like a one-on-one she’ll work with you. She takes like her sales strategy skills and the creative poetry feelings, stuff that she had kind of been hiding from business because thinking that ended up along, cause that’s what we hear and she’s put them together to create, um, brand manifestos for people, for their businesses.

Tracy: She talked about it in stories where she enjoys being, and it sold out in like five minutes. She had five spaces open as sold out. So she offered another five and it sold out again. So she is doing something she likes more. And I sold out. Now she’s starting to get feedback from these people and they are like, you are changing my business.

Tracy: Like you’ve just totally changed how I see my brand. They’re feeling more than them. That’s going to translate to their clients and that’s going to translate to their clients. Like it’s this crazy ripple effect just from her. Like, this is exactly the answer to that. How does doing less improve your productivity? That bam. 

Julia: Yes. I love that. And actually that’s, that was a really good ID live that you did with her. I did watch it. So, um, friends, if you follow us on Instagram, I’ll be sure to share it to our stories. So that way you can check it out. There’s a lot of pressure to create content as she was, as she said, as you guys say, as we all know.

Julia: And I, I felt it. And after watching the IG TV, I was like, I’m just. From the Instagram, sorry, podcast, like I love you and I want you to be my life forever, but also.

Tracy: Yeah. And you don’t have to know what you want to do instead in order to say no to it, because maybe by taking that break and it doesn’t, it doesn’t have to just be social media or just Instagram that we’re saying, but like, what is it that you are feeling like about what doesn’t feel good and what would happen if you said no to that?

Tracy: And even without something to fill it, because you’re giving yourself that space and your brain a rest and a chance to like, get back on top of things. And it’s going to come up with the thing that’s supposed to fill that space. If something is supposed to fill that space, maybe you don’t need to fill it at all.

Julia: Right. That’s a really good point because tying it all back to, I don’t know how she does it. Kate never allowed herself to run. So she was like making in her mind, she’s making mistakes. Some of them paid off, but some of them did not. And that’s, that then turns into this whole cycle of like, I’m a failure. I’m not doing well, yada, yada, yada, not to minimalize her feelings about being a failure, but it does create this, not allowing ourselves to rest and recover is creating, not creating. It’s removing that space. We need to be able to know how to move forward and to be our best selves. Um, and, and I think her exhaustion is just like, like when she accidentally emailed Jack instead of her friend about get drunk, like. You better believe? I sure. Shit would’ve been fired if that was me, right? 

Tracy: Um, no that you would’ve pulled open the email and clicked recall it wouldn’t have been a problem, but the book had to happen. So

Julia: I think that’s so crucial. I think that as parents B, we think that we have to do all the best things and make everything perfect. And yes, you should try and do better for your kids to what you have. Like, I’m not saying that you shouldn’t, but there was, there were some things in the book where it was just like, girlfriend, your daughter does not give a shit.

Julia: If you buy her, any of this stuff, she just wants, you know, that pressure of like, are you going to put me to bed tonight? Mommy, are you going to be here to put me to bed tonight? Not. Kate being so like, oh my God, stop asking. It’s her it’s her daughter’s insecurity because she doesn’t know mom’s schedule.

Julia: There is no consistency because her boss will say, I need you to go to Frankfurt tonight. And you’re just like, yeah, that’s so unfair to do to a family it’s unfair to do to a person anyway. But like when there’s other people in your life that you’re, you’re responsible to, it’s just kind of a five-year-old is not going to understand. That concept is still kind of, um, broad and vague.

Tracy: Yeah. 

Julia: My dog doesn’t have it. 

Tracy: They’re just trying to, they’re just trying to perpetuate. The messaging, like what we hear that is that is the thought that you have, um, I wanted to talk about, you were talking about like she needed the rest, right. And I want you to talk about the ending of the book and the movie, but in the book, I think that perfectly illustrates it.

Tracy: So in the book. Spoiler. She quits. She says, because I’ve got two lives and I don’t have time to enjoy either of them. And she also says, because my children will only be young for a short time, which I think is a little bit too. Oh, I enjoy them while you can, because that’s gross. But also it’s true. I was, so I was so pissed off that I was not with Papi on her first birthday.

Tracy: Like I remember sitting at my desk at my nine to five on her first birthday and being like, why is she in daycare? And I’m here. This is wrong. Kate quits, which is a little too easy because most mothers can’t just do that. Oh, I’m just not going to work. And just give myself the space. Like it’s a little hard to come by, but she did.

Tracy: As she moved to the country and she had the space and the downtime, and then what happened? She starts building something that is more her as of her own. It is in her wheelhouse. It’s something like it’s the parts of her job that she liked. And I think that’s because she had that, that space for her brain to start going well, what if we did it this way?

Tracy: And that’s exactly what I’m saying. When you give yourself that space, your brain comes up with its best work. So I loved that the business that she stopped. At the end of the book is like in her wheel house, um, is helping women owned. It’s helping, it’s getting all her friends together. Like it seems to be going the right way.

Tracy: Um, I was a little worried that, cause it kind of seems like the very, very end is that she’s just working herself back into that two lives. Again, like she’s starting to list up. She’s just gonna, like, I’m a little worried that she’s gonna fill overfill her to-do list still, which. I think it’s a great warning to moms because this is what I see.

Tracy: Especially in online business, like we quit nine to five and we started our own businesses because we wanted more time. But then I see all these moms just following the same pattern, I’m filling up your two lists with, you know, trying to do all the things instead of focusing on the results. So it’s like the same trapping.

Tracy: You’re still going to get burnt out. But I did want to say that about the end and like having that space, I think as well, like gave her that idea and she could be on the right track to doing something that’s like the most her.

Julia: There is a sequel to the book for our friends at home. If you don’t know it’s called, I read it. I owned it. I bought it when it first came out and I can’t remember what it’s called terrible. Um, 

Tracy: Your brain is full of other things. It’s okay. 

Julia: Yes. Thank you. I appreciate you saying that. How Hard Can It Be? That’s what it’s called the sequel. And it came out in 2018 and I did buy and I did read it. And so, um, 

Tracy: Does it answer my question, what she does with her business?

Julia: I don’t remember what the book’s about. 

Tracy: That’s so funny. That’s how I am with like everything. That’s why I have, even though I watched that movie, that’s going to be like a couple of times in 2019, I still had to totally every watch to know what was happening. I’ll just feel if I watch it, read it and whether or not I liked it and I can tell you. Okay, well, so maybe we all can listeners and I can skim through that and figure out if it worked out for her or not, she’s less but better in her new business.

Julia: Right, right. Cause you know, the kids are older. I think Emily’s a teenager now at this point, I think she’s 16. Yeah. I remember there being like mom daughter teenage tension. 

Tracy: Excellent. 

Julia: But I didn’t like it as much as I liked the first book, because when I read the first book I was working, I’ve just loved working for the government apparently I was working for a different branch of the government at the time and my son was. Maybe three or four. Yeah. He wasn’t in school yet. Cause he went to this daycare that was across the street from where I worked, which was really convenient. So it really hit because I was working two jobs at the time. Anyway. And then the second one. 

Tracy: Sound like she got busy again. 

Julia: Yeah, I think so. Cause then the second one 20 18. So I was just been fired from a job. Different job. I would try to work in, you know, non-government work and that didn’t really work out all that great for me either. Yeah. This city doesn’t really work.

Tracy: Your job. Your best job is going to be the one that you do. 

Julia: Yeah. 

Tracy: Your way. 

Julia: Yup. 

Tracy: Like, i, I don’t think I’m jobable anymore because I don’t want to do it that way. I want to do it the right way.

Julia: It’s hard. It is hard. Yes. It is hard. And, um, I have a tendency, I kind of don’t know how to not be myself. You know, like I do a lot of other types of masking, like when it comes to like, I don’t know if I should admit this out loud, but like, you know, when w when you’re like, I’m an ethnically ambiguous woman, so there are things I have to do to navigate the predominantly white world I live in.

Julia: Like, it’s not a very diverse community I’m in, I mean, it’s more diverse now than it was 20 years ago. So there’s some masking there also, we also call it code switching. Um, and then also, because I’m, neurodivergent, so there’s a lot of things I have to hide on the daily for that. So there’s other things that get amplified about my personality, because I can’t mask…

Julia: I can only, I can only do two types like, right. Like I only have space to hide those two things. And that, that shit regularly gets me in trouble. 

Tracy: Yeah. Well, like you were talking about earlier, like there’s that bent more towards authenticity, but how hard is that in a nine to five? It’s really government nine to five. Cause that’s where I was too. And I totally felt that like, you can’t be a mom or you can’t be fully yourself and you can’t hide everything. So something pops out. So I still had a potty mouth at my nine to five, but I was a little more polite.

Julia: You know? Cause it’s, it’s hard, it’s hard. It’s hard to be like, I’m going to cover everything. And I did have a job once where I did hide, hide every facet of myself and then a friend of mine took the job after I left because I had gotten a full-time job, which I was fired from. Eight ish months later. Cause I was also hiding my full self there though, even though after I admitted to the PR to somebody that I was neurodivergent I found myself unemployed three months later, but I don’t have an official diagnosis because girls can’t be neurodivergent.

Julia: Yeah, it’s a whole thing. Um, so I’m like really jealous of all these women, my age, going out and getting diagnosed now because I’m just like, uh, send me the name of your doctor because I would love to have on paper so I can be like, I’m not crazy. Like I haven’t actual anyway, back to the original digression, I like hid myself fully.

Julia: And so when I left for the full-time job, my friend came in and took over the role and she was like, these people don’t know who you are at all. And I was like, yeah, girl. Like I hid every, every, every aspect of myself and it still didn’t like, I still couldn’t get shit handled. Like I still had people say shitty things about. Not everybody, but, uh, you know, the people that quote mattered to my role. Um, so that was really hard. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could just have a world where we don’t have to do any of that, like we could just be ourselves? 

Tracy: That’s what I’m working on. I honestly feel like the secret to business, the secret to work because who even cares about business.

Tracy: Again, we’re going, if we’re just looking for results, I want to have a job or do you know this, but I want to have. Work that is meaningful to me. That uses my strengths. That lets me be all me. And I think we all do. And if we all do that, if we all go and be the most you in your business and focus on the results, you create a business that works better because it’s easy.

Tracy: It takes less time. I mean, it comes up better and your impact ripples out. And we all are doing that. And like just solves all the problems I could, we could do a full leather episode about this, about how the rebel and how this could solve the world and capitalism and all of that stuff. But it’s being you not having to master yourself.

Tracy: It’s focusing on the stuff that comes out of you the best and the way you like to do it. That’s the answer. 

Julia: Yes, Tracy. A little bit when you’re here. So I remember when my son was little, he was maybe two or three. It might’ve been before. By three and a half, he was in preschool or preschool daycare disguised as preschool. Let’s be honest. I was working a temp job that had the potential to turn into something like full-time and be a good job. What we qualify as a good job. Right. We woke up one morning and he had a fever of 103. And that’s really scary because when he was two to three, I was 22. I don’t have any life experience. I called in because like, I’m not going to hand that off to my dad to take care of who was the primary babysitter when my child was little. 

Tracy: Well, one of the three is like, oh my God, are they actually dying? You’re not going to not be there for that. 

Julia: Right? Like you can have actual damage done at that level. Right. Thankfully later in the day, his fever broke. But the next day my boss called me. I feel it’s important to note that my boss was female and issued a speech about priorities, the potential of moving to full-time and it felt like a jab for calling in, serving as a reminder to me that the health of my child did not matter to this employer. At the time I was hurt and offended now because I was SU I was, like I said, it was a super young mom with no posts at the time I hadn’t had any college. I hadn’t completed any college education. Well, that’s not true. I had like a year of college under my belt, but I dropped out and that made me feel really shitty. Now, I just feel sorry for her, because that tells me she wasn’t prioritizing her family in a way that she could work and have a family life and to add insult to injury.

Julia: Like three weeks later, I got a flat tire on my lunch break. She was way more understanding about my fucking flat tire on my lunch break. Then she was about my sick kid. 

Tracy: ’cause, that’s something you can’t control, but like your kid, you just have to figure out what to do with that. 

Julia: Right.

Tracy: I almost the same situation, like this is how I ended up quitting my nine to five because my boss, a woman who like, I, I’m glad you bring that up.

Tracy: Like, let’s feel sorry for them because this woman was cowing to the patriarchal setup of our office, which was actually headed by a woman also, but it was just fully following this line. And she was sitting there like telling me I’m about to get written up for being out of the office so much with my kid who had pink eye and ear infection and pneumonia all in one week, because which obviously she picked up all at the daycare that I’m sending her to come to this job.

Tracy: And I was, I had been in and out of the office and like, they called me. On the Tuesday at like 9:00 AM and there, that was like the first call she’s got pink eye or whatever. And I started crying. I was at my dock, my boss’s desk when I got this call and I start crying. She’s like, oh my God, what’s wrong.

Tracy: I’m like, because I know that I can still get everything I need to do done this week, but that you’re not going to let me like that. I’m still going to get in trouble for not being here. And I mean, I ended up by the end of the week. We kept trying to send her back. Cause you have to get them out into, you know, you gotta get them into daycare so you can go to work.

Tracy: And husband and I were juggling like, okay, you take her in the morning, I’ll take her in the afternoon. And then like Thursday, we had her at school and they called again at like three 30 and I’m supposed to be done at four and they go, it’s three 30, she’s in the quarantine with a fever. Can you come get her?

Tracy: And I go, can you keep her for an extra half an hour? Like how fucked up is that? That I had to ask that. And they were like, no, come and get your child done. Oh my gosh. So, but this is, I mean, it’s happened to you. This happens to everybody and it’s so messed up. So messed up. 

Julia: It is messed up because health is important. Like I cannot, like if I had handed him off to my dad and something got worse, Or he had to be a hospital. Like I can’t, I already have to live with enough. Like I wish I had done things better kind of shit that I’m working through now that I don’t need you to guilt me because I had, I wanted to take care of my ailing child.

Julia: Like that’s not okay. That’s not okay. Um, I actually, I did end up going and finding another job shortly after that. It’s like, it’s not fucking worth it. Like this isn’t worth it. And I’ve been struggling to find work that created space where I could be a parent and an employee at the same time.

Julia: Ironically, now as much as I complain about my current job, I do have a lot more freedom now than I have had in any other position. And my kid’s a senior in high school, so it’s cool. I’m on the finish line. And then literally he’s going to be at college and I’m just gonna be me, you know, 

Tracy: But we need to make this a norm anyway, for our children and our children’s children.

Tracy: Like, I don’t want this to ever be a question for my three-year-old daughter later. Like, oh, do I, can I work? Can I be a mom? Can I do that? Like I wanted to be like, of course you can, I’m going to go, what do you want to do? Go do that. 

Julia: Yes. Because it’s completely unfair. I found, so I found it so hard. Like, so clearly Kate Reddy’s making a shit ton of money cause she’s moving money around. She was working as a fund manager. So that’s a level of, you know, that’s a completely different level, but secondary second, second to that. I was struggling to find work that paid me a substantial or a livable wage, you know, even where everyone thinks like, oh, you work for the government. You make, you’re probably overpaid.

Julia: That’s cute. Let’s talk about all the government jobs I had where I still qualified for Medi-Cal and I still EBT like, no, this isn’t a thing. Like, I don’t know what world you live in, but living in California, I’m sure living in every state is really hard, but California, especially right now, it feels really hard, um, in terms of money, but it’s, it’s completely unfair to put people in a position where they have to choose certain things in order to survive.

Julia: And that creates a whole other level of stress. And then you’re not getting quality work from somebody you’re not getting productivity out of somebody. And then to add the added stress of 40 hours a week on top of them, like, come on guys. 

Tracy: So we just all need to go do our thing and build businesses and companies that don’t act that way for ourselves and for the people that we hire.

Tracy: And so that, that just becomes the norm. Yeah. 

Julia: Oh yes. That’s what we’re doing. I appreciate you see, thank you so much for coming back and talking with me about this movie slash book. Absolutely. This was so good. It was so good. Even though we kind of deviated away a lot from the book and movie itself. 

Julia: I mean, it’ll happen.

Julia: Yeah. 

Tracy: That’s the point of this podcast? Isn’t it late it’s about stuff, not just the media. 

Julia: Exactly how it trickles because that narrative is, I feel like as hard as we’re fighting it, it’s being reaffirmed all the time for every generation. And we’ve got to stop doing that. And you know, the work that you’re doing is moving towards that, but we need Hollywood hear us now stop reinforcing the stereotype.

Julia: Stop giving us those messages that as women, we have to do all of these things that are completely bullshit. 

Tracy: Yes. 

Julia: Can you remind everyone where they can find you, if they want to keep up with you online? 

Tracy: I would love to, um, please come hang out with me on Instagram. I actually enjoy the Instagram. It’s my one thing that I do, although I also send emails, which are great, and you should get on my email list as well.

Tracy: But come to Instagram, I’m at Tracy dot Stanger and I’m in stories all the time, Monday through Friday, because aside from talking to Julia, I do not work on the weekends.

Julia: Which makes me extra grateful that you showed up have today. Cause when you, when you booked on a Sunday, I was like, oh, I know she doesn’t work on Sundays. I just really appreciate her. 

Tracy: Absolutely. But you to come see me, um, on Instagram, just hop on my email list and um, We’ll see you there. 

Julia: Yeah. Excellent. And if you enjoyed today’s show friends, share it with your friends, subscribe to this podcast, wherever you’re finding us, and we’ll catch you next time and you can catch us on Instagram as well.

Julia: Uh, we actually, I actually share a lot of, I feel like I share a lot of your stuff on the.

Tracy: I feel like you do too. And I appreciate that. 

Julia: Well, I believe in what you’re selling. So you got to support what you believe in. Until next time friends. Thanks for tuning in y’all.

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