Episode 9 | Moxie

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Julia: Hey friends, this is pop culture makes me jealous. And I’m your host, Julia. And on today’s show. One of my favorite people from my high school years is here and we are discussing Moxie.

Julia: Netflix released Moxie on March 3rd, 2021, and it was met with some serious criticism. It was based on the young adult novel written by Jennifer Mathiue but before we dive into this discussion, I must introduce you to my guest. Carly Adams is a professional organizer based in Sacramento, California. The owner of tidy revival.

Julia: She loves nerding out on all things, decluttering and organizing. When she’s not working, she’s probably shopping for houseplants and bingeing reality TV with her husband. And I have to add that Carly and I have known each other since high school. She is one of my favorite humans to run this earth. And I am proud to call her my friend and bonus. I’ve rendered her tidy services. I’m gonna tell you what it’s fucking life-changing. So definitely look into that. If you need that help .Carly, welcome to the show. 

Carly: Thank you so much. I am so excited to be here with you and thank you for having me on, I’m really excited to dive into this because I know you and I talk about these types of things all the time, but this is the first time I’ve talked about, these types of conversations on a podcast. So, yes, I’m excited right now. 

Julia: I’m excited that you’re bursting that bubble with me. It makes me feel like we’re bonded even more. 

Carly: Well. Yeah. And I feel like it’s pretty appropriate because I feel like we’ve been bursting that bubble since we met. 

Julia: Yeah. Those high school years, man, one day, one day will never admit to any of the things we’ve done. Also confession for as long as I’ve known you, I didn’t know that you were part of bachelor nation. How did I miss that? 

Carly: Uh, probably cuz I don’t talk about it too much.

Carly: It’s fine. I shouldn’t hide it. If I find it’s like, if I find out a client’s into it, then we’re just talking about it in sessions. But if, unless somebody, unless I know that they’re into it, then I’m like, shh, you don’t need to talk about it. I mean, the show is like, we all know that it’s deeply problem problematic in so many different ways. So, um, the feminist in me, like cries a little bit, but, um, I I’m wildly addicted to it. I haven’t been for years. And it started with Bachelor in Paradise, like their season two or three or something. And then that was it. Now I just watch it all this awful. 

Julia: Also a confession. I like to watch the very first episode of the Bachelorette when there’s like 25 men.

Carly: Yeah, 

Julia: vying for one woman. And then after that don’t care, cause then you all just, they act a fool and I can’t, I’m not here for that shit, but I love the idea, as I’ve mentioned multiple times on the show, multiple men vying for my love, like that is the dream. 

Carly: I would watch that show or just be around for that. I’m here for it. 

Julia: Thank you. I appreciate your support. Okay, so let’s do a quick summary of Moxie really quickly for our friends and listeners at home. This summary came from Netflix, everybody. So bear with me.” Inspired by her mom’s rebellious past and a confident new friend, a shy 16 year old publishes an anonymous zine calling out sexism at her school.”

Julia: So we’re not going to expand any further on that because the discussion is really going to dive in to a lot of, a lot more. We’re just going to get into it. 

Carly: Yeah, let’s go. 

Julia: And as I mentioned before, critics had a lot to say about this movie and most of it was not positive. The Hollywood Reporter calls this film, a wholly possible and a transparent gen X fantasy of its cultural relevance to Gen Z. Cosmopolitan ran a review titled “Amy Poehler’s Moxie is just another movie about a problematic white teen.

Julia: Indie Wire’s review is titled, “Moxie Review. Amy Poehler introduces feminist thinking to a generation that might not need it.” And NPRs headline was, “Moxie says some things, but not everything about high school feminists.”

Carly: I have to tell you, uh, there’s a title, the titles of the articles that I pulled up to talk about. This are one from the Phoenix at Swarthmore college, since 1881, um, “Moxie reviewed. I’m not upset, just disappointed.” Also the title of a book my parents would write about me

Julia: Co-authored by Ed and Ann Marie Washington. 

Carly: And then, um, What to watch.com said, “intersectional, feminist and proud,” which is like the most positive review I think I’ve seen of anything. And I know we’re going to get into all of the points, but I liked that the verdict for this was like positive, positive, positive, positive. The only. Against it says, and this was a big issue that I had about it said while it’s inclusive and diverse, it could have gotten the full marks if it had allowed its trans character to be explicitly trans rather than just implying it. 

Julia: Yes. 

Carly: I don’t think that’s the only issue with it, but we’ll get it. But that’s a big issue of mine. 

Julia: Yeah. We’re going to get really into it. We’ll dive in big time because what I think another point we need to make about this, like we mentioned earlier, Moxie’s based on a book Moxie references, the Riot Grrrl movement, which is a movement of the 1990s, a movement that I discovered personally in 1998 and held onto a lot of that ideology through most of my high school career, Carly was witness to it. 

Carly: Not just witness. I was like with the, yeah, we were there. We were there. 

Julia: Yes. We will not shoot be sharing pictures because it was pre-digital. Sorry. I had to go

Carly: And because my eyebrows are so thin and sad. 

Julia: So cruel. The early, the late nineties and early aughts, I stand by this. It was just a cruel time for fashion. 

Carly: It was fun though.

Julia: It was fun. I had a good time. This is a movement for those of you listening in, aren’t familiar with Riot Grrrl, G three, RS L it’s very important to know. Sorry. This is a movement that started in the Pacific Northwest and was punk and feminism and politics all wrapped up in music. And it was very, very heavily female. In the Cosmo review. I referenced earlier. Mia Brabham I think is how you pronounce her last name, writes, “In the process of exploring what a feminist awakening looks like for a white teenager. Vivian’s classmate, Lucy, who is Afro-Latina is both exploited and ignored by teachers, by peers and most importantly, by Vivian. Vivian doesn’t speak up when Lucy is interrupted by a white male peer after questioning the diversity of the syllabus and Vivian hangs her head low when she is the only one who witnesses the same white male spit and Lucy drink after she denies his sexual advances.

Julia: Vivian go so far as to approach Lucy one-on-one in the hallway and tells her to ignore this behavior. That is until they become best of friends. After Lucy tells Vivian she won’t ignore chauvinistic comments and behavior inspiring feminist ideas in Vivian.” Moxie, just another problematic white girl, trying to make Gen X cultural phenomenon relevant in today’s world?

Carly: I didn’t really think that it was like gen X trying to be relevant today. I, and that wasn’t like any sort of issue I had with it.

Julia: And I didn’t actually pick that up until I started researching. And I was like, what? Because I guess I don’t equate Riot Grrrl with Gen X, even though I should. 

Carly: Yeah. Yeah, I totally see what you’re saying. And I just think that there’s a lot of amazing things about that movement that still apply today. So I don’t really think that it’s like, oh, and we’re trying to like force this on you. You know, let’s not like, it doesn’t feel like Woodstock in the nineties. Do you know what I mean? 

Julia: Like it’s like, don’t have that kind of time.

Carly: Yeah. Okay. So there’s something about the Riot Grrrl movement that they talk about briefly in the book and briefly in the movie. And that is that it wasn’t intersectional enough. It could have been a lot better probably because it took place in the Pacific Northwest where it is an overwhelmingly white area.

Carly: And I know you and I talked about this offline. I found it very interesting that the book takes place along the Gulf in Texas, in Texas. Yeah. But her mom’s, you know, her misspent youth years were in like the Portland area and she was in Washington too. But then I, in the, in the book, her father dies and she needs to like move back to her hometown and be near her parents so that she has support.

Carly: But the whole movie takes place in a small town in Texas. I don’t know if it’s even worth noting that like the Seth, Seth character in the movie, they’ve known each other since like kindergarten, but in the book, he’s like a new kid, which I thought was a random, weird change, but yeah. But then they took the whole movie and put it in the Pacific Northwest and made the diversity of the set more diverse than the actual diversity of that area, which I just thought was, it’s just like, why not set it somewhere else that is more diverse. Like, and then, that just leads me into the issue of like, this was obviously a very purposeful attempt at intersectionality at bringing together all sorts of different genders and sexual identities and all sorts of things, but they still chose to make the entire storyline through the lens of a straight white girl. So like why? 

Julia: After you and I had our original conversation about Moxie, because my initial reaction was like, oh my God, I love this movie because also I was the girl getting yelled at and being called, you know, a boy hater and a man-hater because I wanted equality. And so that is what stuck out to me plus the Riot Grrrl um, But after you and I had this conversation months ago, I was like, Carly’s making some really good points.

Julia: Let’s dissect this found out it was a book. So we agreed to read the book together and preparation. What I love about the book taking place in Texas, the book portrays the small town, small mind with the layers of mom’s a widow. So she moves back home for help because that’s a huge thing. Solo parenting, especially in like a bigger city, like Portland real hard.

Julia: Yeah. There’s limited diversity in this small town, the football culture, as we know it from Friday night, lights told everybody the football culture in Texas is a, BFD the element of her grandparents because the grandparents like the mentality of the grandparents, when it comes to gender and gender roles, I thought was a huge in the book.

Julia: And we, they removed that for the movie.

Carly: Entirely. 

Julia: So especially in contrast with her mom. So she’s growing up with these small town, antiquated behaviors. Her mom got exposure outside of that by living in Portland and then having to move back home and hating it. I identify with that by the way. But Vivian’s concept of elsewhere is, is a, is abstract. She doesn’t have that understanding because that’s not our experience and to make Seth, instead of being a new kid in town, in the book, turning him into a time friend in the movie, removes the elements that Seth and Lucy in the book bring to her, which is, Hey, the world’s actually a lot bigger and all the shit that happens here is kind of bullshit.

Carly: Yeah. And I found, I don’t remember it really coming across as much in the movie, but Lucy was talking a lot about how different her experiences were when she was in Houston. Um, because they had, you know, what was that like a student. It was like advisory board type of thing that she was on. And she said that like, her teachers loved her, the administration loved her.

Carly: They really valued her opinion. She was a good student. Whereas in this new school, she was just considered trouble and like a problem starter because she spoke up for what she believed in and stood up for herself. So that was, that was interesting. Yeah. I agree with you that they have, maybe they should have kept stuff. That’s new kid. 

Julia: I think so, because when coming from a small town, I mean, Modesto is a big small town. I talked about that kind of a lot. And so when you don’t have somebody, when all you know is what you know, When somebody new comes to town and they teach you about, oh, this is what it’s like, where I live.

Julia: It’s kind of mind blowing when you’re 16, if you don’t travel a lot. And I get the impression that she and her mom probably don’t travel a lot. She’s a nurse. So she probably is working 12 hour shifts, seven days a week. I don’t know. And so that self discovery of what, the way that Mitchell Wilson treats us is actually wrong in the book is so much more impactful than in the movie, because in the movie it just feels like, oh, you know, we do all these things and it’s bad and football rules, but I don’t equate the culture that exists in the Pacific Northwest with the culture that they’re trying to represent and sort of speak out against that we see represented in the movie. 

Carly: Yeah. They also change. Oh, go ahead. 

Julia: No, I was just to say, I see, you know, this concept of trying to make it anywhere town, then you shouldn’t have set it in the Pacific Northwest.

Carly: A hundred percent also, they, they changed the principal character too, because in the book it’s his dad. So it’s, it’s a, there’s a lot of nepotism going on where, you know, Mitchell Wilson can never get in trouble no matter what he does. And they’re shocked that he spolier alert. Read the book or watch a movie, but in the end he has rape allegations against him. And like that’s a whole thing. And in the book, you know, they have to like, they basically leave town by the end of it, like move away.

Carly: So it felt like he was untouchable for that reason. Like the whole administration was, it was set up so that Mitchell and his friends could do whatever they wanted. Right. There were more of those, there was a little bit of dress code stuff in the movie, but not to the extent that it was in the book. Um, and they didn’t have, like in the book, you know, the guys are wearing gross shirts that were like gross shirts, “like nice legs. When do they open?” And something else? I don’t know, just a lot of like really gross sexual references, um, and never got in trouble for it. The whole entire football team, whereas girls are getting pulled out of class because they are wearing tank tops whose straps are too thin and, and they go into. Like, uh, like in a much bigger detail. Um.

Julia: That’s part of the second call to action for Moxie. You know, the first call to action is to do the hearts and stars on your hand with the first scene that she produces. The second call to action is in direct response to the dress code violations that the girls, female students are getting in trouble for, but male students aren’t and in the movie, they make it that character he’s just topless all the time.

Julia: And to me, I’m like, you’re a sports player. Like not that I’m saying that students should be topless in school. I’m just saying when I drive by the high school, after school and practices over, they’re all topless because they’re hot right after running scrimmage or whatever. So it didn’t have the same impact to me as the, when I read that in the book, the statements that were on the shirts, it was just like, this is really inappropriate and offensive and not like, oh, I’m a delicate flower I’m offended, but like this is 2021. The book was printed in 2017, still in 2017, wildly inappropriate. But in the context of a small culture that is pumping money into football team to keep this sort of ideology alive, it still makes sense, regardless of what year. 

Carly: Yeah. Yeah, totally agree. Can we talk a little bit how the side characters were not allowed enough room for development and were 

Julia: 100% .

Carly: Way better? Like I care way more about Claudia struggle and figuring out her way against her parents than I care about if Vivian is going to have sex or not. And like that, that seemed to be like a huge thing. Especially in the movie, she was like in high and might have sex. It’s like, okay, like. There’s some other bigger fish to fry that you’re really part of right now.

Carly: I get that. That’s part of it, but like, you know, your friends might be expelled and you’re kind of letting them take the fall for things like.

Julia: Yes, like where’s the ownership. So in the book for you listeners, she establishes Moxie, but then doesn’t take the leadership role. She leaves it open for it to be led by the group by whomever is compelled to speak out against the injustice that’s happening to the female students. 

Carly: Publicly.

Julia: And in the movie she’s quietly the leader. And even that’s part of the whole premise of the essay, writing the essay, um, for colleges, applications, that to me was just like, why did you throw that in there? Because they made that a thing, right? Like when, when Lucy potentially could be the one who gets to claim that she or not Lucy.

Julia: When Claudia could potentially be the one who claims that she started Moxie in her essay, college essay, and then like Vivian kind of bristles at that thought because you know, she started Moxie. That’s not the tone in the book. Vivian’s constantly stating in the book, this isn’t mine, this is ours. 

Carly: Oh. I thought that she, I felt like she was bristling at that just because she was nervous for Claudia specifically about her parents’ reaction.

Julia: I took it a different way. 

Carly: Yeah. I, I took it as, you know, like, she’s like, she’s going to be fine. Like her parents will get over it. She’s going to have a great college essay. I took it as like, don’t tell him, like you just got here, Lucy, you don’t know how her parents are. I know how her parents are, but the thing is that kind of doesn’t even match it up either because you know, when she like goes to see Claudia and see how she is, Claudia is like, no, I’m not okay.

Carly: And you don’t get it. And it’s like, wait, what do you mean? I don’t get it. So it’s almost like. You don’t know. Cause I do. Cause I know Claudia, wait, I don’t what what’s happening. And I was like, it felt like a really big moment that Claudia was trying to finally tell her friend who she’s been friends with since they were like babies and explained to her how her life is different because she’s not white and she has immigrant parents and she has different expectations at home then, you know, Vivian does.

Carly: And it was really interesting because it’s like, it felt like that was a very big moment for Claudia to try and explain that. And Vivian’s like, oh, okay. And then it’s like, that’s it the moment of understanding, I guess we’re done now. Cause I told you that one time.

Julia: And it’s a lifelong struggle. You and I have talked about this offline for many, many years, you know, especially because you know, we both have a nonwhite parent where your like, people don’t understand what it’s like when you.

Julia: I’m going to go with, I’m going to lead with biracial, but other things too, like in the instance of Claudia, the expectations, everything that you outlined for her and Vivian to be a friends for as long as they have, it makes sense to me, for Vivian to still not fully understand Claudia struggles, because I feel like I can’t speak for you. I’m only gonna speak for me because I feel like I’m always in that situation, friends for a decade and they still, I still can’t fully help them understand what it’s like to be in my shoes. And sometimes don’t want to approach those conversations unless something happens. Then it’s like, well, shit. Now we have to talk about it.

Julia: Now I have to tell you why I’m upset. Now I have to tell you why this is problematic. 

Carly: Well, so that was my issue. It’s just, it’s your very, very best friend. This is the first time this has ever come up in your friendship. I was just, I found that slightly hard to believe. Okay. Even if it had, even if this was just boiling under the surface for Claudia and she finally expresses it for Vivian to just like, take it that one time and then, you know, it just kind of never comes up again, even in the movie, like, it just felt like it wasn’t enough of an exempt acknowledgement.

Carly: It wasn’t really like a listening and learning. It was more of like a listening, giving a slight nod and moving on. 

Julia: Yeah. Because they could have done something at the end, at the walkout scene to sort of resolve that a little bit better. And I’m always talking about how pop culture and movies and television give us the language we didn’t know we had.

Julia: And that’s a missed opportunity to sort of help students in kids and teenagers who don’t know how to say this is why this is hard for me. And I need you to understand, like, that was a missed opportunity. 

Carly: Totally. Okay. Since we brought this up, I’m going to get into it right now. The CJ character, my, this was probably. I have many issues with it, but this was my biggest one CJ’s character. They never use the word trans in the entire. They never do. So at the beginning, when there, the girls are at the party and then they’re kind of like commiserating with the different things. CJ, CJ has like three lines in this entire movie.

Carly: Um, also she’s cute as a button. And I was very proud of the folks who made the movie for hiring a trans actress. I thought that was fantastic. Anyway. So she said, you know, people are griping about the different things. And she says, yeah, people don’t even use my new name, like, or, you know, people aren’t using my new name.

Carly: And they said, oh, seriously, not even teachers. And she’s like, yeah. And I want to audition for Audrey and little shop of horrors and everyone is upset by this. And that’s how she puts it. The thing is, I felt like those lines, if you’re not familiar with trans issues, if you don’t know trans people, I felt like those lines were so short.

Carly: And so. I felt like they could mentally be swept under the rug if you weren’t like, if it wasn’t like a, not a trigger word, but you know, if like that didn’t pop up for you.

Julia: You’re not familiar with the language. 

Carly: If you don’t know someone who’s had a new name, if that’s not something that you and your, your friends, your family have gone through, that might not be something that registers as a thing.

Carly: And it might just be like, what? Well, anyway, and like move on. 

Julia: Yeah, it didn’t pay. I didn’t pick up on that. All of that right. The first time. And then the second time I’m watching it, I was like, cause admitedly back in March, I was still learning more about the trans community and the hurdles that the trans community faces. So in March when I watched it, I’m still in like this infancy. The second time around, it was like, oh, there it is.

Carly: Completely completely. And it’s definitely a community that I feel, um, More comfortable with and like have been, you know, doing lots of different work with, you know, for a year. So I think that’s why it pissed me off even more because for people who are maybe watching this, and this is the first time that they would be ever introduced to a trans character, if it’s not specifically stated if they miss it, because you didn’t say it and because you didn’t make it a bigger deal, it almost felt like they didn’t say it so that they didn’t have to rock the boat.

Carly: I’m not sure. It felt like they weren’t proud of having a trans character. Honestly, I felt like as a viewer, that’s how it came across. Like just say it, stop beating around the Bush. 

Julia: And that’s one of those sub plot characters that could have developed more because the idea, again, the theater stuff, you know, she wants to audition for Audrey. This is a backwards town, well in the Pacific Northwest, but if it had stayed in Texas, That could have been a really interesting avenue to explore as one of the sub storyline. 

Carly: Exactly. And instead her audition was part of a montage and that’s it. 

Julia: And the teachers are looking very happy with the way she’s auditioning and I’m thinking, no, I’m, I’m going to go with, I think that if the teachers are refusing to use your new name, they’re probably still not thrilled that you’re auditioning for this role.

Carly: Yeah. And then, and then nothing. And I’m pretty sure like that besides like, Hey yeah, like that’s the end of CJ’s lines. Um, I just felt like if you’re going to go there, then freaking go there don’t stop. Like I felt, I felt, I found that very annoying. 

Julia: Yeah. There’s a lot of like highlights too, of things that, you know, black women say have been saying for years that, you know, they, I felt like they kind of plucked out, right? Like don’t touch our hair, don’t touch our butts. We’re always being whatever. Like, these are things that are issues for us when we move into the major dominant culture. So it was like, we’re going to pull the headlines. We’re going to pop up in the headlines, but we’re not going to get deep on anything.

Carly: Okay. At this Corey saw the end of the movie with me. And, um, you know, it’s like at the rally, like everyone’s sharing, they did have that character who got up just to like defend herself. Where has she been this entire movie? What is your name? Who are you? Why did you not have more? Like that is a person who I want to know where she started from. Is this the moment where she felt compelled to share? I don’t know. I’ve never seen you before. 

Julia: Right? 

Carly: You deserved more lines. Chances are you probably had them in. They were cut. 

Julia: Yeah. 

Carly: Um, but yeah, Vivian’s face at the end. Like Corey and I were just laughing. Like she was kinda like, I did this. Everything’s fixed now. Now we’re good. Don’t worry guys. 

Julia: I saved it. 

Carly: Racism’s over. So is homophobia. You’re welcome. 

Julia: That’s a really good segue to move into our next topic. Early on in the book, there is a reference to this band heavens to Betsy, which is the band Curran Tucker left Sleeter Kenny for bikini kill’s song. Rebel girl is a large part of the backbone of the book and is referenced a few times in the movie.

Julia: The Riot Grrrl scene was very much white and Amy Poehler’s character acknowledges its lack of intersectionality. Briefly in the film. Moxie has been accused of tokenism and the white savior trope in the earlier referenced review by NPR writer. Linda Holmes had this to say “Moxie also tries to tell the story about feminism more broadly. Poehler plays. Vivian’s mom, Lisa, as a one-time nineties riot girl, who knows that her own feminism wasn’t intersectional enough. The film answers this to a degree with the fact that mocks that the Moxie club is a lot more inclusive than Lisa’s circles sound like they were, it includes students of color and a girl who is in a wheelchair though her role is very small and a girl who’s transgender played briefly, but memorably by the wonderful Josie Totah.” And I apologize if I pronounce the last name wrong. I have not actually heard any interviews where she’s been introduced. So I’m not familiar with how to pronounce her name. The feminist movement is predominantly white since its inception.

Julia: And only recently has this openly been discussed without bristle and discomfort though, these things still happen in certain groups. Homes, states this film answers this to a degree. So I have to call this into question. What, like let’s talk about, we’ve briefly already talked about representation and its attempts to address feminism, but I kind of let’s get into it more.

Julia: Um, To your point about Vivian’s face at the end. Like I did this, this is mine. I’m so good. To me it felt like they were like, oh, this is a book about white people in Texas with reference to Lucy Hernandez. That’s her actual name in the book as well. Seth’s last name and the book is Acosta and we li we learn his parents, Zoe and Alejandro.

Julia: So I’m, I’m thinking maybe Seth is biracial based on that. Zoe’s kind of one of those names that could be in any group. And so it felt like they just sort of like plucked characters from the book and were like, okay, that one’s going to be Black. That one’s going to be in a wheelchair. That one should be trans. That one’s going to be Latino. We need, we need a chubby girl over here. Like, it didn’t feel like there was consideration for the actual intersectionality and they were just. Let’s have diversity for diversity’s sake. 

Carly: Also in the book, they talk about it a lot more about how, as they reached like middle school, high school, that groups ended up being more segregated and they really dig into that.

Carly: And they talk about how, um, you know, there’s like the Latina girls to speak Spanish, the Latina girls who don’t speak Spanish. There’s like the Black students there’s, you know, all these like different, different groups. It just felt like it was more addressed in the book. And in the movie, it was definitely more of like a casting choice for 20 21 or 2020, you know?

Julia: Yeah. I really appreciated this scene in the book where Keir at were Vivian full on admits that she and Kiera were friends up until middle school, like that whole scene when they run into each other in the bathroom that is described in the book. I thought it was really important because a lot, you know, the accusation of the white savior, the accusation of tokenism, I feel like.

Julia: Isn’t that because she is becoming self-aware of all of these little things that are ha that have happened and are continuing to happen and she’s acknowledging it. And she’s thinking, well, we have to like, what’s my, I felt like she was coming at it with what’s my role in this. And that’s what made Moxie, not having a leader in the book so much more powerful because she wasn’t trying to save anybody.

Carly: Yeah. Whereas in it, in the book, it came across as this is for everyone. It’s not just about me. Whereas in the book or in the movie, she came across more as a coward who wasn’t, who was too afraid to do anything publicly that she only just got pissed in private and then let other people who were POC, like take the fall and, you know, and, and stand up for things publicly because she was like too chickenshit too. I mean, I, I honestly felt like if they had taken less time in the movie to explore her incest relationships so much and had taken more of that thoughtfulness into taking some of those feelings from the book and putting them in a movie instead that it would have been better overall.

Julia: I agree, because that whole funeral scene date in the movie just doesn’t make any sense to me. Like.

Carly: It’s cute, but like.

Julia: Okay. 

Carly: If the book’s about like, that’s the other thing too, like if the book’s about ultimately about feminism, why is it so much about the now and the am I going to have sex with this person and all of that? It just felt like it wasn’t really as important as the message about bringing people together.

Julia: Right. This isn’t a teenage high school romcom. 

Carly: Yeah. Yeah. Like what’s the point here. Let’s find the point and let’s dig into it. 

Julia: I do love the actor that played Seth. I thought that he was really, I forget his name off the top of my head. I have to look at it. I thought that he did a really good job at playing that role. The part that was hard for me once reading the book, knowing that he came from Austin. And so when the accusation of rape comes up and they have that fight in the book about it, where he’s like, um, I forget specifically what he says, but he’s basically like, you know, just sort of doubting the accusation, which is typical 

Carly: That’s a big accusation. It could really ruin someone’s life. 

Julia: Yes. And so in the book Vivian’s like, uh, that ruins her life. And so they have. Nico Hiraga is that how you would say it? Yeah. Nico Hiraga play Seth and he’s just adorable. And just the way that he would like look at her and stuff, it was just like, you guys are adorable, but also this isn’t a romcom. As Carly has pointed out.

Carly: It was a really cute relationship. They had a bunch of cute scenes. I loved it. The funeral date, I thought it was just precious and adorable, but that said, if you’re trying to tie everything up in a bow, there’s a lot of shit you left out for the sake of getting all this teen romance in.

Carly: And that wasn’t supposed to be the point. So if it’s like, it’s a timing thing then like it’s, it’s really about prioritizing. And I feel like they prioritized wrong. I’m usually not that critical of movies. There’s so many movies that are absolute pieces of garbage. I’ve been told by a friend that I love. Garbage movies, but this one would be, it pissed me off.

Julia: I feel like that’s fine. I feel like that’s fair because the fight in the book between Seth and Vivian about the accusation, I feel like is the way that that fight happens all the time. When a woman steps up and makes an accusation. And then the way that they fight about it in the movie felt like she was just being a self-righteous human, you know, like it didn’t, it wasn’t coming from a place of like, how am I, how do I try? How do I say this? It’s because I haven’t explored my own emotions fully with stuff like this, either because it’s scary to think about, but it, I just. Reading the scene in the book just felt like this is a conversation I’ve had with people when somebody steps up. When we’re observers of somebody stepping up this conversation at a 16 year old level feels like how 16 year olds would fight about this, because the guy’s coming from the perspective of like, what if somebody accuses me, that’s scary.

Julia: And then the girls coming from the perspective of like, I don’t want my life fucked up because of this. And well, and so I guess they’re both, that’s the same perspective, I guess, but different angles. 

Julia: Yeah. 

Julia: And in the movie, it didn’t feel like that. It just felt like she didn’t know how to add, not advocate. She didn’t know how to ex I don’t know. I don’t know what, I don’t know. It would just, it was a mess. I don’t know how to further explain it, but to me it didn’t feel as I hate to use the word authentic because we use that word for everything. 

Carly: But I mean, that’s accurate. 

Julia: Yeah. 

Carly: That’s an accurate. word choice. 

Julia: Yeah. 

Carly: Um, yeah, the scene. Um, and I’m totally blanking. Cause there were only, there were only a few fight scenes in here, but um, was that the same scene where she like blew up at the dinner table with her mom’s boyfriend and all that? 

Julia: I think, yeah. I think that came a little after.

Carly: That CA that came across as really just like a, um, you know, when you’re 16 and you, you just have so many hormones just coursing through, you don’t know how to use your words. So instead you just blow up it, it had that feeling, but it didn’t feel as constructive as it could have been. 

Julia: I also hate that they made it, that they brought her dad back to life and just wasn’t in the picture. 

Carly: Oh yeah. And also it wasn’t in the picture. She doesn’t really reference him until kind of that moment where she’s just really upset about this, this, this, this, this, and why doesn’t dad want to see me at Christmas? And then he’s never mentioned again. So you’re like, okay, so wait, is this just like actual parental issues? Which fair enough, but why have we never heard of him till now? What we never hear of him again? Like, let’s just, let’s just reign it in yet. 

Julia: They made, she makes an earlier reference. That’s really quick and I didn’t catch it the first time I caught it the second time where she makes a comment about her dad’s wedding. And so, but it’s really fast. It’s really fast. And so for me, the mom being a widow, still in love with her husband, trying to navigate dating somebody in Texas. Was so compelling, even though it’s a sub thing, then her being, I don’t know, we don’t know what she left. We don’t know. We don’t know what, what the demise was.

Julia: We have no idea. And then that bit about like, oh, you know, he’s like, hello, Mrs. Carter. Nope. That’s not my last name. Sorry. That’s not my last name. I went back to my name and that just felt super pretentious to me. And yeah. 

Carly: It was kind of like, Hmm, Nope. Wrong. It’s like, okay, well, why don’t you just tell him your last name or it’s not that big of a deal.

Julia: You don’t need to make a point about it. 

Carly: You don’t need to be rude about it. Like yeah.

Julia: Correct. Because, so in my life, you know, I, my parents are still married. Okay. And so that whole concept of divorce, parent, isn’t a thing for me. So when my parent, when I have friends. Or who are divorced and their moms still have the last name that they were given at birth that there, my friends were given at birth. It’s not weird to me because a lot of those moms and I actually had one very specifically say to me when she got, because I was older when she got divorced and I was like, oh, are you going to go back to your maiden name? And she said, no, my children’s last name is this. My last name will stay this, even though he did all of these terrible things to me, and I would love to be rid of him, my children have this name, I will have this name and that stuck with me.

Julia: And so I, when I see that sort of representation of like, Nope, Nope, sorry. Nope, that kind of tone. It just kind of makes me feel like, I don’t know, I’m not comfortable with it. 

Carly: There was just no need to be that rude. Yeah. There was no need. 

Julia: And on the other hand, they’re on the other side of that, I have some friends, moms who were like that man was awful to me. We are done. I do not need a reminder. I’m going to go back to my maiden name .Personally I hear all these horror stories about what you have to do to change your last name. So I don’t know why we bother anyway. 

Carly: Yeah. And I will say I don’t even care that she decided to have her last name, like sure. Have your last name, change, do whatever you want. It’s your name. It’s your decision. Just don’t be rude about it. 

Julia: Ya this poor kid is being polite, whatever. 

Carly: Yeah. All you have to say is like, oh, my last name is actually so-and-so.

Julia: And it’s so intimidating to meet your. Partner’s parents for the first time like that’s already 

Carly: Thanks for the ice cream I bought yesterday, made me give it to you right now. 

Julia: We’re trying to be polite. It just made me that just rubbed me the wrong way, the whole thing. And I don’t know if it’s because I have teenager and I’m just like, here are the things that I would like for his friends. Like I expect them to be polite. 90% of them are, you know, but it’s just like, but I’m not gonna be a dick to them.

Carly: Well, if he brought someone home for you to meet your. There’s just no need to be rude. 

Julia: Yeah. Amen. 

Carly: I’m going to completely change the subject real quick. 

Julia: I’m here for it.

Carly: I want to tell you how excited I was to see Lauren Tsai who played Claudia in this movie. I mentioned this a little bit offline to you, but over quarantine. Okay. So Corey and I had been really wanting to go to Japan. That was like the next big trip on our list. That was, are going to be our fall 2020 trip. Didn’t happen. It’s fine. 

Julia: 2020 plans. 

Carly: No, not so much. Instead what we did was just binge all sorts of Japanese content over quarantine. Lots of it right down a rabbit hole. And one of the shows we watched, which was amazing is called terrace house. And I’m not going to dig too much into it, but there’s like three or four seasons on Netflix. Highly recommend it will take you down another algorithm, rabbit hole, go down it, if you like subtitles, just go on down that rabbit hole.

Carly: It’s fun. Um, but Lauren Tsai was on one of the seasons of Terrace house. It took place in Hawaii. And, um, a lot of the characters were either, um, American, um, or from Japan. It was like kind of half and half. Um, but I believe one of her parents is American and one of her parents is Japanese. I’m completely remembering this from watching the show on Terrace House where she, but a reality show.

Julia: Oh. 

Carly: So Lauren Tsai the person was on Terrace House. Yeah. Talking about how she like really wants to be an actress and that’s her dream and you know, all these things. So when Moxie came out, I was like, oh LAUREN TSAI! 

Julia: She was so good. 

Carly: She was so good. This is a really big break for her because Terrace House, I want to say Hawaii like the second to last season before COVID so, I mean, it wasn’t that long ago and she’s in her, she was in her early twenties. She was probably about 24 ish now. Um, she’s cute. As a button. Sweet, shy, adorable. She did great. I’m so happy for her. 

Julia: She, so I would never know. Cause you know, some reality TV people, when they try to transition into acting, they don’t got it. 

Carly: Yeah. Well hers was like an aspiring actress going into a reality TV show.

Julia: Well, there’s those two where you see them in something you’re just like, Nope. 

Carly: Yeah, she did great. 

Julia: I, that makes me so happy for her. Yeah. I was just personally happy for her. So she’s biracial. I all right. Team mixed girl. Get it. 

Carly: Yeah. 

Julia: I’m all about representing that team. Mixed girl. I don’t care. What you mixed is. Your mixed? Welcome to the club sister. 

Carly: It’s a fun club it’s a real fun club. 

Julia: We’re real fun. And we don’t drink. Um, what’s that shit Boone’s farm anymore. So.

Carly: Never did Julia. 

Julia: No, never did. Never did. Just, you know, just, just we watched, we heard about it on the radio or something. I’m very deeply emotional this year because my son is a senior. As you know, you’ve known him since he was an egg in my body. And I think that. When, well, I’m going to jump ahead a little bit, but when I watch high school stuff, I’m really emotional. And then as he’s experiencing, we’re on campus now this year, which I’m grateful for, but also very terrified. Thank God he’s vaccinated.

Julia: I think that I respond differently than I would. If some, if like, if this had come out five years ago, I probably would be in immediately in your camp of like, Hmm, I’ve got problems. But my first initial response was high school, then a oh my God. Somebody knows how Bikini Kill other people know who Bikini Kill is? So I was in this cloud of. I don’t want to call it sadness cause it’s not sadness, but I definitely am reliving that the high school, the positive school feelings through my kid right now, now that he’s literally going to graduate 20 years after I graduated. So that’s an, it’s an extra level of emo happening.

Julia: I’m gonna have to start wearing dark eyeliner again.

Carly: And get the bang to just go right in your face. 

Julia: I don’t, I don’t think I did that. Did you do that? 

Carly: No.

Julia: I didn’t think you did. 

Carly: No, I missed it. 

Julia: I was more of the short bang, you know, I liked them short. Remember.

Carly: They were all cute. 

Julia: That was, that was really pretty back then.

Carly: You’re really pretty, always. 

Julia: So are you. I want to go back to the indie wire’s review because the headline for let’s let’s recap, the headline let’s restate the headline for people, because I don’t even remember what it was. And it’s only been like 20 minutes. Their headline was “Moxie review. Amy Poehler introduces feminist thinking to a generation that might not meet it.

Julia: Okay. So to me, This headline suggests that maybe this movie isn’t for gen Z, but rather a reminder for those from gen X. And then when I read the article at this line by writer, Kate Erbland stuck with me, “Mostly, it may prove to be enlightening to older generations who don’t remember what it felt like to be young and suddenly clued into the ways of the world for its target demo of teenage audiences it will be less relevatory.” So I feel like we were pretty clued in when we were in high school, you know, as we mentioned earlier, we were definitely into that Riot Grrrl movement, but it also didn’t really fully, like I didn’t fully grasp that there was lack of diversity in the punk scene until I got older.

Julia: And because Modesto back then and now is still a pretty white community. So in this concept of like anywhere town, but really the Pacific Northwest, the idea that this movie is supposed to represent that anywhere town, this type of naivete still exists, in my opinion, in my experience of living in Modesto for 37 years.

Julia: So could it be argued that this movie is still trying to speak to current teenage girls, but specifically like, instead of all teenage girls, maybe it’s trying to talk to white teenage girls who live in small town, anywhere USA. 

Carly: I think that there’s a good chance that it could. I mean, I think that it seems like the kids, these days are so much more tapped in and like, know what’s going on and feel empowered to speak up and speak their mind, give their opinions and have thoughtful conversations about things. Then I feel like I was at that age, but I’m a 38 year old woman. Who doesn’t have children. 

Julia: So we didn’t talk about all that stuff. Like it wasn’t at our fingertips in the way that it is now. 

Carly: Exactly. Because now people are really able to get an absorb the opinions of so many other people. Like, I mean, like I’m on Reddit for just different things sometimes.

Carly: And a lot of people like posting on there are teams, which are things that I just try not to like get involved with, but it’s kind of wild to me because I’m like, okay, so teams can be in there in a fitness community, but they could also be out there asking any questions they want in life. Whereas like, I don’t feel, I mean, no, I know that when I was that age, I didn’t have access to the unbridled opinions of adults would be a very big deal.

Carly: If I was having a Frank conversation with an adult about anything, um, you know, anything more than. What’s going on, like, how is how’s school going? 

Julia: Where are you going to go to college? 

Carly: I don’t know yet. That’s nice moving on. That’s it? No, that’s it. So, um, I just think that that teams, these days have so much more access to actual unfiltered opinions from adults and getting advice for them, whether they be strangers on the internet or, or just seeing what’s out there. There’s just more information at their fingertips. That being said, because my experience is my own. I can’t really, I can’t, I can’t speak to the experiences of all of the teens in America, but like, I know what’s going on, but I can only imagine that there’s still a lot of teens who are not clued in at all.

Julia: So you think about like, yeah, you know, we’re in California and we have. You know, people assume California, people assume California. It tells them a lot about California, but you know, in the suburbs, if you want to call them that of Modesto, some of these towns, the things that happen, I’m just like, I’m sorry, what century is this?

Julia: And it’s shocking to me because I feel like the internet has opened up this world. Whereas, you know, 16 year old me knew like Vivian abstractly, there’s a bigger world out there. There’s other things out there. I knew I wanted to experience that. I knew I wanted to get out there and be a part of it didn’t happen.

Julia: And then that’s sort of, kind of still happens. And I CA I, I, I’m speaking as an outsider, watching a teenager go through high school, but sometimes my son will come home and say things. So I’m just like, that still happens. That’s still happening. Like the dress code thing still happening. 

Carly: I will say that I know that I have been. I know that what I’m going to say. Next means I’m a very fortunate person, but a lot of the racism that I’ve experienced in my life is people not realizing I’m half Latina. And then just saying shit to me.

Julia: I’m not laughing because it’s funny, I’m laughing because yeah, girls, same. And because I’m Black and we’ve talked about that offline. We have people who make assumptions about us based on our appearance. And then they show colors that they probably wouldn’t have if we looked mono-racial. 

Carly: Yeah. And then you, um, and then you have to just let them know, like, Hey, you know what I am, who you’re talking about. Right. Oh, wait, what? Yeah. Like that’s happened so much. So yeah, it’s stupid. 

Julia: It is stupid. And also, I feel like we’re both really pretty, and I’ve said this before on the show about myself, but there’s a level of protection when you’re really pretty. 

Carly: I feel like that’s a whole other conversation, but you’re not wrong. I was having this conversation with a friend and, um, they were like, we were just talking about like traditional beauty standards and how some things are easier for some people. And it’s a whole, it’s a whole other topic of fucked up edness that exists in life. 

Julia: Totally. 

Carly: Um, but yeah, but maybe in some ways it makes it easier to stand up for yourself. 

Julia: You know, I there’s, I think there’s a lot of things that potentially could have turned really bad, but because I was pretty and fit and charming and I could turn that charm on to get out of that situation. It worked. But if I was darker would that the outcome have been the same. Like I ask these things in myself all the time, and I think that’s sometimes the conflict with being, um, a biracial or multiracial person is that you’re, it’s a daily dose of what kind of shit am I going to get today? 

Carly: Yeah, it was kind of shit. Am I not going to get, because I don’t look more like my parents and that, that, that fucks with you. Like, you know, when I was in Arizona and they do random border checks and they just glance at you and go, go, go, go, don’t even check. Would you do that to my dad.

Julia: Right? I want to talk a bit specifically about Vivian’s relationship with Claudia and how Lucy affects this. So for our friends, listening, Vivian and Claudia, as we mentioned, have been friends since early primary school, if not earlier. In the film, Claudia is of Asian descent and is struggling with Vivian’s new found assertiveness. Not because she doesn’t believe in feminism, but because she’s 16 with strict nonwhite parents and the complexities that exist for Claudia and Lucy don’t exist for Vivian.

Julia: So I think we should speculate a little bit on what the writers could have done to highlight this better through the relationships that exist between these three characters, because Lucy is Afro Latino. Claudia says that line, you don’t get it because you’re not white. Like there’s so many avenues that we could have really focused on. The writers could have .For me specifically that first scene when Mitchell comes up to Lucy and it’s just like, when he first sees her and it’s just like really gross towards her and just mean an awful to me that felt racially charged. 

Carly: Did you feel like that scene you’re talking about in the cafeteria right .

Julia: In the classroom.

Carly: Oh, 

Julia: When they first meet. 

Carly: Yeah. I felt like that was racially charged too. 

Julia: And there’s no discussion on that beyond it. 

Carly: And in one of the, one of the articles they say that like, um, he, he spits in her drink because she’s rejecting his sexual advances. I didn’t see those as sexual advances. I saw them as creepy and racist.

Julia: Same. 

Carly: I saw them as aggressive, dangerous, and racially motivated. 

Julia: Same. And so it, it this, after reading the book and then watching the movie the second time, Why aren’t you tying that in? Because this doesn’t feel like it’s, because Mitchell wants to bang Lucy to be grotesque about it. It feels like he’s attacking her because she’s a Black woman.

Carly: Yeah. That’s, that’s the vibe that I was getting as well. 

Julia: Okay. I’m glad I’m not alone in that. 

Carly: No, I was really surprised to see that they wrote that to like, oh, he she’s rejecting his advances. I was like, it advances what? Like to it, everything he was saying seemed just like weird and creepy. And

Carly: I’m like at a loss for like the right word or like, like there’s violence under the surface. 

Julia: Yes and Lucy does call that out in the movie later on. And I’m really glad that they put that in there because so often we brush under the rug, that type of behavior. And it’s passed off as like, oh, it’s harmless such, just hold your, keep your head down. Don’t don’t antagonize them. A number one. It’s not my responsibility for you to control yourself around me. I can’t, that’s not my responsibility. Don’t put that on me. That’s that’s fucked up. Two, like Lucy called it. This is this. If it’s not already dangerous behavior, it’s the start of dangerous behavior. And as we learned later on both in the book and the movie, he is a harmful person. 

Carly: Yeah. Yeah. And in the book it’s attempted rape and in the movie he rapes somebody. That’s the one person who comes forward. 

Julia: Yeah. 

Carly: You know.

Julia: I did love that in the book, there was more boldness about calling out the action, right? The flyer comes out, nobody knows who puts out the flyer about this calling for this walkout. So for those of you listening, Moxie, the zine has these calls to action for Moxie girls. And so the, towards the end of the book. The F this flyer gets circulated. It’s taped to the front of the school and it’s like, it’s a, hold on. I marked it. One of the things I actually like about the printed book is that they put the zine in there just like.

Carly: Awe that’s my bad for getting the audio book. 

Julia: So the flyer in the book says, “Moxie, walk out this Friday at the attendance bell, I am tired of being silent. Mitchell Wilson tried to rape me at a party. I won’t be quiet anymore. Principal Wilson and the administration of E R H S refused to listen to me. If you support this walkout, you support all girls. You support a movement that refuses to tolerate violence against girls.” Which is part of what started the fight between, um, Seth and Vivian. But I thought that was way more impactful. Than just a note in the bathroom saying this thing happened. ’cause it’s like Moxie has given the girls of east rock, rock, Eastern report, East Rock Port High School the confidence, and the ability to now say I have been harmed and I’m not standing for it anymore. 

Carly: And I know that I’m not going to be alone.

Julia: Yes. 

Carly: I know that. Like, I’m putting this out there because I know that I won’t be alone when I do this walk out. I know you have, my back is what that, that’s what it came from the process to me. 

Julia: Yes. And that’s huge because it’s so scary to come out and say, this is what happened to me because immediately you’re going to get discredited and people are going to call into question your character and the believability and, um, and sadly, the way you dress and the way you behave with other people, when that part hit in the book, I was like, yes, girl, let’s get you the help. Let’s show.

Julia: We’re going to stand up and show up for her. But in the movie it felt very passive and it didn’t highlight the strengths that Moxie truly had. 

Carly: Hmm. Yeah. And I feel, I feel like there was more momentum to leading up to the walkout. I don’t know. It felt.

Julia: In the book or in the movie?

Carly: In the book. In the movie, it felt like the beginning was too long and so much happened in like the last like 20 minutes. Whereas like there was way too much fluff over here. 

Julia: Yeah.

Carly: I don’t know. I know I’m just being critical, like the way they made the movie now. But 

Julia: I think that, I think that if you’re going to try and add a narrative to the conversation of feminism, especially for teen girls, it needs to be examined deeply because how, how often think Carly, think about how many times I post about all the movies that came out when I was in high school that I still latch onto and still hold as a fucking, like, that’s my roman-

Julia: like, that’s my Bible. That’s my life Bible. Because Kat Stratford didn’t put up with shit. So I’m not putting up with shit. 

Carly: How old were you when you realized that? Um, the character from, gosh boy, am I from 16 Candles? What is it? Ryan. 

Julia: Jake. Ryan. 

Carly: How old were you when you realized that he is not hot and not someone that you should be with, but he’s actually like a dangerous person who just passes over.

Julia: Thirty-two. That’s a little too late. ’cause I’m wa you know, I’m like, oh my God, I love it. I’m showing it to the child because like, oh my God, John Hughes is the best. Yes. He’s the best. But also maybe a little problematic. 

Carly: Somethings just don’t hold up. 

Julia: And it’s horrifying the girlfriend, his girlfriends that he ditches with Anthony Michael Hall. And then she has like that. 

Carly: She’s passed out. Why don’t you take her home? 

Julia: Yeah. 

Carly: I want to get with this girl. 

Julia: Yeah. And then the next day she’s like, did we? And he’s like, yeah. I think he says, yeah, the point is is you shouldn’t be trying to hook up with somebody. Who’s not going to remember it the next day.

Julia: Like, that’s not okay. But again, that’s Canon, that is teen movie Canon because we’ve been watching it since what, 19 84, 19 86. And it’s influenced generations. So to tie it back to your statement of you being like, I’m sorry for, or I shouldn’t be so critical. Yes. We need to be critical because what comes out now in 30 or 40 years will be Canon to the next generation and we need to constantly move forward. And if you’re not helping move forward, then get out of the fucking way. 

Carly: The end!

Julia: You know, there wasn’t a lot of diversity in the punk scene. Right. And, and like, even when we travel up to like Northern California or head to the bay, still not a lot of representation in the punk scene. I love like punk music is so defining of our adolescents that I just desperately want a story. By a Black punk girl so badly because I can’t be the only one.

Julia: Can I ?Like, where are you? There’s gotta be others. I can’t be the only Black girl who was like punk fucking rock bitches. Like there have got to be others. 

Carly: Yeah. I mean, I wanna, I wanna watch that story. Hell yeah. 

Julia: She’ll have a really good friend named Carlita. 

Carly: Ooh, I’m in. Yeah. I’m in. Then

Julia: Anyway, back to Lucy and uh Claudia. I do, I do think that it was a disservice to not expand more on their storylines because it is so that’s still a narrative immigrant parents, a lot of the pressure, like there are 18 year olds today, still dealing with that. Like that’s never going to stop. 

Carly: Yeah. And the thing is even in, um, you know, in the movie, you don’t even really see a lot of her parents.

Carly: It’s just like, you know, her going to the door and the mom being like, no, like. 

Julia: Yes, mom, you defend your girl. 

Carly: I know. And, um, yeah, that’s just, it’s not a story. I think it was in the book too. Like she wasn’t getting in trouble until recently, or I don’t know. No, actually I take it back. That was Lucy’s grandma.

Carly: That was, yeah. Lucy should have had more of a storyline in the movie. Claudia should have had more of a storyline in the movie for a movie that wanted to desperately come across as one of the most progressive intersectional, diverse cast you’ve ever seen. They really fell short of actually giving people lines and storylines and it it’s like they, they were trying and then just. fell super flat or maybe they were trying, but they weren’t really asking the opinions of the right people. Like I’d love to see who was in that writer’s room and like what outside opinions? Like what other opinions were you getting? Were you just so. 

Julia: Insular yeah, I did read an article about, I forget who specifically, I don’t know if it was Amy Poehler specifically, or one of the writers had made a comment about how, you know, they are coming from a white experience. So, you know, that’s a lot of what’s happening. And when I read that, I thought that’s when you call your friends who are also writers in Hollywood, who aren’t white to be like, can you consult.

Carly: Maybe just don’t just have all white writers when you’re specifically trying to tell a story that includes. The voices of others, especially when one of our criticisms is that you’re like over here and you’re over here and you’re over here, like spend that time where you weren’t focused, um, bringing in other people’s storylines to a better degree and, or developing your points better, like do, as you came here.

Julia: Yeah, because I think the view, the view, I think the book that did it beautifully for what it could do, you know, it’s, it’s giving you complexities with Vivian because she’s, you know, she’s learning so much and you’re learning with her and then you get more of Lucy in the book. I don’t think Claudia was written as a person of color character in the book. That’s not how it read to me. 

Carly: I, I wanna say.

Julia: I don’t remember any specific types of references, you know, he. 

Carly: Yeah. I feel like they did once, but I can’t remember if I’m remembering that she was mentioned as like, I don’t know. I think, I think she might’ve been white movie. I mean the book, I think, I think anyway, Yeah, it was good. I wanted to love it. I wanted to love it more. I have a lot of criticisms with it. 

Julia: I think you’ve voiced a lot of those today and I’m here for it. 

Carly: Thanks girl. Thanks for, uh, giving me a place to vent for over an hour about Moxie. 

Julia: I love it. The idea of feminism is so scary to people which doesn’t make sense to me because in grad school we studied feminism literary theory, and I understand this theory to be the combination of elements from psychoanalysis, Marxism post-structuralism and deconstruction, to question the role of gender in the writing interpretation and circulation of literary texts.

Julia: Like that’s the point of feminist feminism literary theory, in my understanding from graduate school. Meaning we look at the ways in which literature reinforces or undermines the representation of women, but in my grad school career, that really wasn’t. Part of the conversation. Like we didn’t have much discussion about this, this theory and the effects of non-white women.

Julia: And so to have a book that is so different in what I’ve read, when it comes to white women trying to be woke and it actually walks her through the process and she’s not entitled or pretentious or savior in it. I didn’t read her to be a savior in the book. It just kind of bums me out. Do I love that they talked about Bikini Kill? Yes. Also do better by literary theory, feminism literary theory. 

Carly: Yeah. Just be better. Yeah. That’ll be the title be better. Is it too much to ask?

Julia: Maybe. Any last thoughts about this, uh, Moxie that you need to get to the airwaves? 

Carly: Uh, thanks for letting me vent about it. I, I know I mentioned it to you, but I had read it was so like annoyed that I Googled something to the effect of like Moxie disappointed trans character like, like Googling and like what’s coming up. And I found this amazing medium article that I cannot for the life of me find, um, that was just beautifully stated. And it was basically my opinion and somebody just wrote it down and I was like, thank you. And then, um, and then I found that girl on Instagram and messaged her to thank her for her. But yeah, it was really when we ended up talking about it a couple months ago, it made me really happy that you’d watch it and then we could like chat about it.

Carly: And thanks for inviting me to come on and chat about it even more. 

Julia: I am so glad that you came by today because like, I just love talking to you in general. And so like, to be able to transport our conversations into this vehicle, it just brings me so much joy. 

Carly: Oh yeah. Same, same I, as you know, I’m a big fan of this podcast, so.

Julia: I appreciate your support. I love you so much. 

Carly: Oh my gosh. I love it. 

Julia: Can you please remind everyone where they can find you if they want to keep up with you online? 

Carly: Yeah. Um, huge departure from what we talked about and then my regular life. I talk about decluttering and organizing and you can find me at Tidy Revival on Instagram and Facebook or a tidyrevival.com

Julia: Perfect. And if you want to keep up with us in between episodes, find us on Instagram at pop culture makes me jealous. And if you enjoyed the episode that you are listening to today and you’re listening on apple podcasts and on over, and drop us a review. Thanks for tuning in y’all.

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