Episode 6 | When Harry Met Sally

Episode 36 – Listen Here

Julia: Hey friends. Welcome to Pop Culture Makes Me Jealous. I’m your host, Julia and today’s guest is Libby Saylor from the Goddess Attainable and we are talking about When Harry Met Sally. 

Julia: Everyone knows this movie When Harry Met Sally, it’s widely famous for various reasons, most notably Rob Reiner’s mother’s line. After Meg Ryan fakes, a big O in the diner Reiner’s mother says, “All have what she’s is having.” This film also introduces the concept that men and women can’t be friends. 

Julia: When Harry Met Sally landed in theaters on July 21st, 1989. And two days later, the Hollywood Reporter ran an article titled “Smart Women, Foolish Choices, Men Who Can’t Love, Run From Commitment.” They had this to say, “Although certainly not pretending to be a panacea for the myriad ills of modern romance Castle Rock Entertainment’s When Harry met Sally, is beautiful, brainy, touching, and lilting romantic comedy that should touch the heartstrings of lovers and those yearning to be loved everywhere.”

Julia: The film is one of Nora Ephron’s claims to fame, garnering an Academy Award nomination for best writing screenplay written directly for the screen and as an exact quote, by the way, like that is an exact line and how they had it written out. Before we dive in, I want to introduce you to my guest, Libby.

Julia: Libby Saylor is an artist, blogger and podcast host, living and working in the Philadelphia area. Her blog and podcast, The Goddess Attainable aim to inspire and empower women to become their authentic goddess selves unapologetically. She explores topics of love and dating, self-love and personal growth and spirituality and healing among others.

Julia: She lives with her partner in the suburbs of Philly and loves spending time with her family, including her fraternal twin sister. They share the love of pop culture and standup comedy and love to analyze all things pop culture with their Virgo critical minds. She also needs nature in her life, loves to cook and bake, and can’t go too long without watching movie in an actual movie theater with popcorn, candy and soda. Same Libby. 

Julia: Ghostbusters is her all-time favorite movie, the original you guys listening the original. Followed closely by Jurassic Park. Welcome to the show, Libby. 

Libby: Thank you. You made me sound fabulous. Thank you for having me. 

Julia: I’m happy you’re here. I’m glad it worked out for us. Yeah. Okay. So let’s dive in with a summary of the movie first, and this summary is from Google. So it’s not my fault. I didn’t write it. “In 1977 college graduates Harry Burns played by Billy crystal and Sally Albright played by Meg Ryan share a contentious car ride from Chicago to New York, during which they argue about whether men and women can ever truly be strictly platonic friends. 10 years later, Harry and Sally meet again at a bookstore and in the company of the respective best friends Jess played by Bruno Kirby and Marie played by Carrie Fisher, attempt to stay friends with out sex, becoming an issue between them.” This movie is truly defining not only as a romcom, but also a classic in its own, right on August 9th, 2018, Vanity Fair, ran a listicle of the best 25 romantic comedies of all time.

Julia: And When Harry Met, Sally was number one. It’s number one a lot. 

Libby: Yeah. 

Julia: There’s so much to talk about here. So we’re just going to dive in with the easy stuff first. Do we love this movie and why? 

Libby: I think it’s easy for me to say yes. And I have, I had to think about like, why do I love this? Not that, not that it wasn’t obvious, but the thing that stood out for me the most, which is really random, I love movies with an eighties, New York backdrop.

Julia: Yes. Same. 

Libby: Yeah. And I started listing like all of the eighties movies from New York with the New York backdrop, Crocodile Dundee, obviously Ghostbusters. I mean, as, I mean, Ghostbusters for me is brilliant, but like the New York part is huge Wall Street, Big, Dream Team. I don’t know if your Dream Team is kind of obscure, but 

Julia: I haven’t seen Dream Team. I love Michael Michael Keaton 

Libby: Michael Keaton like at his best. Working Girl, Fame and Baby Boom. Those are kind of the ones that came to mind, but I just love, and I was like, okay, well, why do I love eighties, New York so much? Like, why is this a thing for me? Honestly, I think part of it is just like superficial.

Libby: Like I love the fashion and the hair. Um, I was a child, so I was born in ’79, but I had an older half sister who was like a teenager in the eighties and she lived in Manhattan. She grew up in Manhattan. So I have these like really vivid memories of like driving through the Lincoln Tunnel with like Michael Jackson in the background. And like those moments, you know, before you pull out of the Lincoln Tunnel and then you enter and you’re like, oh my God, I’m alive. You know, it’s such a, I was such a New York person, you know, and I, I got to live there for four years as a, as an adult. But so there’s this nostalgia thing for me, I think weird stuff like everybody’s still smoking, which is funny.

Libby: It’s like terrible, but I’m like, I don’t know. It’s an eighties thing. 

Julia: Yeah. 

Libby: So that’s a huge part for me to me. That’s just to start with this movie, you know, Um. 

Julia: There’s elements too. Like when you say the whole ni the smoking New Yorker situation, like when I watch old er movies and yeah, I hate to lump eighties movies into that older category, but that’s just where we are though. It’s old now. There’s something, there’s something about it that feels, I don’t know. Very, this is terrible. I’m not endorsing smoking everybody but there’s something about it that just feels very grown up and grown up because Hollywood up until the mid nineties pretty much had characters smoking all the time. 

Libby: Yeah. And I feel like Mad Men even brought back a little bit of that, like, oh yeah, this does look pretty cool. Like it’s so messed up. Like it is. Yeah. It’s, we’re not endorsing.

Julia: We’re not endorsing it. It’s terrible. I was a smoker for 20 years. Don’t do it. Like my lungs hurt. There’s fires everywhere in California. My lungs hurt on the daily because of that. And I feel like it does suck, but I feel like if I hadn’t smoked, I would probably still have lung pain, but it wouldn’t be as bad.

Libby: Yeah. 

Julia: I wouldn’t be as terrified of being diagnosed with something anytime soon. 

Libby: Yeah. 

Julia: Just don’t start. Just don’t do it. 

Libby: Don’t start. But we recognize and honor the fact that it looks kind of cool and movies.

Julia: Which is part of the problem. 

Libby: It’s a problem. Yeah. But I’m, you know, I’m a product of this culture. I’m a total pop culture, whatever. So yeah, I think I, anyway, there’s not a ton of cigarette smoking. Harry Met Sally, if any, but that’s sort of more of the eighties, New York vibe. Um, yeah, so that was one of my reasons. And then another thing that I, and I really kind of this became a little more clear, even watching it last night, rewatching it last night is, you know, a lot of romcoms, they happen over like a short period of time. May very rare. Is it like a day, but maybe like a couple of weeks, a couple months or something. And this was real, this was over 12 years. And there’s some, I noticed this, like there was a projection and there were like stages of their relationship, which I think is really romantic, like in real life. So, you know, it starts off with these superficial, you know, like. Whatever they’re kind of annoyed each other. And, and, and then they sort of, when they start hanging out, they get to know each other’s quirks, which is kind of, it’s romantic. You’re like she’s jamming the mail and the mailbox, like she’s taking a million years, but like he’s still hanging out with her, you know?

Libby: So it’s like just this quirk is getting used to. And then what was, I think the turning point in the movie where my heart really started to like swell actually was when they had that fight at, um, Jess and Marie’s where he had just bumped into his ex wife. He was really upset. He started screaming and Sally got kinda mad at him. Like, you need to reign it in or whatever. Yeah. He was sort of like gave, they just had a back and forth and at the end and she really defended herself. She like stood her ground. And then he was like, are you done? Can I say something? And she was like, yes. And he was like, I’m sorry. And he just like melted.

Libby: I was like, oh my God. That’s okay. He’s a keeper. Like now he’s not as much of a jerk. So, uh, and then of course they, they like are full on relationship vibes, but I think that’s why this movie gets to like everybody and the relationship, it just reels you in because there’s so many points where you can like enter the story. Cause you’re like, that happened to me once, you know, even if you’re not relating to all of it. So.

Julia: I love your point about the little bits and, you know, you see the relationship develop over time because as you say, we don’t get that in romcoms. So it makes the end so much stronger because they’ve just spent this time together. And there are gaps of time where they don’t see each other, but because their starting point is in 1977, it’s still, it’s still over a decade of knowing that each other exists because, you know, he says in the, um, restaurant scene when they’re trying to set up Marie and 

Libby: Yeah, Jess.

Julia: Jess. Thank you. And like I said earlier, any Bruno, Bruno, may he rest in peace.

Libby: Yeah. 

Julia: He he’s like, Sally’s a great orderer, you know? And that, that was a huge moment too, because when they first meet and they’re driving across from Chicago to New York, he finds the way she orders to be so irritating in that first restaurant scene. But then he’s like, she has a great order. She knows what she wants. She’s got it. She’s like that scene. 

Libby: Yeah. It was like, she was, and you know, they were not like through okay. Bruno and Meg, Ryan, Jess, and Sally, they were not getting along on this like blind date thing, but it was so sweet how he was just like trying to make her feel comfortable because Jess and I was like, Sally writes for New York because at that point, Jess was like completely not interested and was interested, interested in Marie. And so Harry is trying to like. Just, yeah, he’s just like trying to build her up and it’s like genuine and it’s like, oh, he’s like really cares about her. 

Julia: Yeah. Yeah. And even after the, at the end, when they live, leave the restaurant and he she’s like, you know, Maria’s like, are you into this? And she’s like, oh no, but, but, you know, but Meg Ryan’s like, but just wait though, because I don’t want Harry’s feelings to be hurt. 

Libby: Caring about each and then he does it too. Like don’t as Sally’s really vulnerable right now. So there’s just like, they’re actually caring about each other as human beings. I don’t think pop culture does a good enough job in general. Just exploring, like what it’s really like to like, love someone. Cause it’s like, yeah, you have to deal with all this stuff that you don’t really like. And the real love is when you’re like, I still love you and want to be with you, even though this is super gross. Right. Romantic, you know.

Julia: And that’s probably one of the reasons why it lands on the top 20, you know, is number one all the time, because it is a longer, it’s a longer development of the relationship. So it makes them getting together in the end feel so much better. 

Libby: Yeah. We’re like so invested by then. Yeah. 

Julia: Cause you know, they’re going to make it as opposed to like other romcoms where you’re just like, well, this was just over the course of three weeks. Call me in four years. Are you guys like honeymoon phase? You’re in the honeymoon phase? We don’t know what’s going to last. Everyone wants the honeymoon phase. Yeah. But in When Harry Met Sally, they have a foundation already. 

Libby: They don’t even really have a honeymoon phase. I mean, I guess after they kiss and make out, you know, then it jumps to like they got married. Um, but yeah, but that’s fine. I’m not like missing the honeymoon phase in this movie at all. It doesn’t take away from the romance. 

Julia: And I feel like because they spent so much time together building a friendship first, the honeymoon phase is kind of longer lasting and not as obvious because you’re going to have the sweet moments because they already care. They already loved them already affection. And it’s not waned. It’s still the same amount of power it was throughout the entire time because they’ve spent all this time getting to be together. 

Libby: Yeah. Like their life can be the honeymoon now. 

Julia: Yes. 

Libby: I think Meg Ryan for me is just like a huge part of why I love it. And I know that sounds like obvious. And I wrote all these kinds of like, they’re terrible things. Like it’s, it’s not like PC, it’s like, I’m embarrassed to say it, but I’m like, she’s just so pretty looking at her. Yeah. She’s like refreshing, you know, I also like that. She and I ha uh, there’s more to unpack about this later, but like I liked that she’s like, kind of. Sort of difficult or not difficult she’s she’s controlling, you know, I mean, I, yeah, I identify with her as like, like Virgo, like very particular dah, dah, dah, and you know, we’ll, we’ll get into this later about how that’s like demonized, you know, falsely demonized, but like, I like it cause it’s not, you know, And I have to admit my favorite.

Libby: One of my favorite romcoms of all time. It’s so bad is, uh, How To Lose A Guy in 10 Days. 

Julia: Oh my gosh. 

Libby: It’s like the worst one, but I love it. 

Julia: Libby, whenever it’s on TV, I’m not changing the channel. 

Libby: You have to keep it so good, but so bad. But like, you know, Kate Hudson is like, she’s such a cool girl. Like she actually has to pretend to be annoying in order to whatever. Like she’s actually cool. And I don’t really identify, like I identify with like Kathryn Hahn. Who’s like, I’m in love with him. I knew him for five days and he, you know, I’m going to die without it, like, yeah. That’s that’s me. You know? So Meg Ryan is kind of, I just identify with her more than some like cool girl, I guess. Cause I find her refreshing.

Libby: The script. I’d feel like the script is exceptional. And it’s exceptional in this way. That it’s really hard to, not that it’s hard to tell them that it’s exceptional it because it’s in this rom com genre. You’re just like, oh, this is funny. That. Every line is kind of brilliant and like perfectly curated. And it’s so exceptional that I think it takes it to the next level. I think that’s why you have that like timeless thing, because it’s just, the script is just so brilliant. It’s not sloppy at all. 

Julia: No. And it’s yeah. So it’s funny that you bring that up because there’s this story that Nora Ephron wrote. She has this book. I think it was the last one before she passed. It’s called. I Remember Nothing and Other Reflections. And she has a short essay in here called “My Life As an Heiress.” And it’s all about how she and her sisters were expecting this inheritance from an uncle. And they’re expecting so much money. And at the time she’s writing this screenplay, but she’s not really into writing the screenplay and she’s super broke. And so, you know, if they get this windfall of money, there’ll be okay, yada, yada, yada, she calculates that they’ll probably each get a couple of hundred thousand dollars from this inheritance if his estate is this much, et cetera. At the end of this short essay, she says they end up not getting very much money from the estate because their uncle was a Philander.

Julia: I guess the screenplay she was working on When Harry met Sally. So had she inherited the maximum amount of money she anticipated to inherit w- she probably, she wasn’t planning to finish the script. Isn’t that wild. 

Libby: That is amazing. That’s also amazing. Just like, from an artist perspective, I hate to say it sounds so cheesy, but like you kind of create so much better work when you’re suffering. It sounds so like dumb, but it’s like, it’s totally true. Oh, my God. I kind of like thought you were going to say that. I was like, when you said she was working on a script, I was like, I wonder if this is that, oh my God, that’s crazy. 

Julia: Could you imagine if we didn’t have it because you’re not wrong? It is such a well-written script. It’s funny. Every time I’ve watched it, it’s never not funny. And, and you know, the fact that it won an a CA or was nominated for an Academy Award for best original screenplay is kind of a big deal cause rom don’t rom comes, aren’t taken seriously. 

Libby: No, and they’re not really meant to be written well, even that’s not like the focus right.

Julia: Fuel my sad desires of wanting to, yeah. 

Libby: Feel pathetic for an hour and a half, but also comforted and then turn it off and go have ice cream. 

Julia: Yes. Yeah. Or if you’re like me. I have the ice cream and beer while watching the movie. 

Libby: You have to have a during cause why wouldn’t you? 

Julia: Right? 

Libby: Yeah. 

Julia: Anyway, I just thought when I first read that essay, because I think the book came out in 12. So when I read that essay, it was like, oh my that’s amazing. Gosh, that’s wild. That’s wild. 

Libby: Don’t want to imagine life without this movie.

Julia: Right? 

Libby: Yeah. 

Julia: Yeah. I always watch it in the fall. It’s one of my favorites. It’s a cause you know, like you mentioned the background of, um, totally autumn in New York and stuff.

Libby: And she’s got the beautiful blazers, sweaters. 

Julia: And I love all of her sweater. If I’m going to rock an 80s style, I’m going to tap Sally Albright. Okay. 

Libby: I know. And the red one and the glass, like the red sweater with the glass, just all, and I’m just. Still, I’m not over the fact that eighties fashion is like no longer. I don’t think I’ll ever be over it.

Libby: Cause I just love it so much. So yeah, that makes sense. I love that watching in the fall. That’s amazing. 

Julia: I’m I’m a seasonal show movie watcher, like there’s movies that people are like, oh, I watched this all year long. I’m like, ah, no, that movie only between November 1st and December 31st, like Anna Green Gables, the Anna Green Gables series. I only watched it in the fall. Last year though, it was so stressful that I kind of, I did pull it out in April to watch it.

Libby: Preemptively. You’re like, I just need this right now. And 

Julia: I need Anne. I need Gilbert. I need their love and it’s comforting. 

Libby: Oh God, I love that. That is so cool. The seasonal thing. Okay. 

Julia: And there’s so much stuff like I think Marvel is the only 

Libby: Constant. 

Julia: Is the only constant cause everything else has has a very specific, I can only watch it during this time of year.

Libby: I go through marvel spurts where I’m like, I need to watch Marvel a little bit every day for like two months. And then I’ll like, get it out of my system. And then I won’t watch it for like a while. And then it’ll like, have a resurgence and I need almost like daily dose of Marvel 

Julia: It’s oddly comforting for me. So if I have a stressful week, I’m like throwing on, you know, like, cause I know good’s gonna win, like. 

Libby: Totally on. There’s so many reasons why yeah. Another podcasts, but yeah. That’s um, yeah. Yeah. 

Julia: Well, we can’t talk about this movie without talking about the most famous scene, which we referenced a little earlier in the intro. I’ll have what she’s having and an article titled “I’ll Have What She’s Having, How the Scene From When Harry Met Sally Changed the Way We Talk About Sex,” Lisa Bonos writes, ” It was the moment women realized this thing they were doing in private was in fact universal. It was the first time many men learned about the charade, but it also gave viewers a specific and perhaps skewed picture of how pleasure should look and sound.”

Julia: So I was 17. The first time I watched this movie, my brother was like, you have to see this movie before you start dating, because it’s going to make dating make sense. So I didn’t fully understand that joke from experience at the time. But I think intrinsically I understood that, you know, as women, we often pretend to enjoy doing something, even though we’re just like ha ha ha 

Libby: The worst torture. 

Julia: Right. I really just want to stop pretending. Um, so I want to talk about the impact of that scene because prior to this, that really didn’t exist. Like it was scandalous. If you had any sort of reference to sex, anything, right. Like Golden Girls was. They took, they taught, tackled stuff like that. 

Libby: Love me some Golden Girls yeah. 

Julia: But like the simulation of sex wasn’t really like present. But now I feel like you can’t turn the TV on without there being like sex scenes, which whatever, I don’t care about that stuff.

Libby: Yeah. 

Julia: Do you think this scene and this film had the ripple effect that said, you know, the shot heard around the world when it comes to it, but when you first saw this scene, like, what was the impact for you? Because for me, I was like, is this a thing I’m going to have to do? Cause I don’t want to do that. 

Libby: It doesn’t look fun.

Julia: I don’t want anything.

Libby: No. Um, yeah. There’s so many thoughts. Cause I feel like, and I can’t remember the first time I saw it, which sucks. I just, I can’t remember, but I know I was obviously younger and. I think that I identify, you had read something about the quote from that article about how it kind of threw women off thinking, like, is this, what is this, what like an orgasm is supposed to feel like?

Libby: And I’m not feeling that. I remember feeling like insecure and kind of ashamed when I saw the, I think that stood out more for me than like the actual faking part about like, oh God, I’m gonna have to deal with that. And we’re like, yeah, I wasn’t even that far along, I was more just like, oh, is that what orgasms are? You know, like mine don’t really seem like, you know, they’re fine, but the ones that I’m having are not like that. And if there was something wrong with me that I’m not like slamming the table and like screaming.

Libby: Yeah. And it was so believable. So that was like my first, first kind of feeling when that happened. But I also feel like it’s. So when you said the part about how men in the theater were like, not respond to, you know, during these like tests scenes and the women were like in hysterics and the men were just like completely had no idea what people were laughing at. That is so huge to me. Cause it’s like, it really shows the power of how women protect the male ego. And I hate to, I hate to, I’m not meaning to blame women or put the blame on women at all, but it’s more like, I do think it’s kind of our responsibility to maybe start just looking at that to be like, I don’t need to give him this comf, you know, there’s so many ways where we’re not given comfort, so why do they need comfort?

Libby: The only tricky part is, you know, the male ego can be so fragile that if you’re in a relationship with someone and you know, it’s a solid relationship, but like for whatever reason, he like can’t handle. That he can’t handle not, he can’t handle knowing that he hasn’t given you pleasure, then it’s like, oh, I can totally see why women do it then, because it’s way easier to just fake it. Then get into a whole thing about like, look, I don’t need an orgasm in order to feel pleasure because they don’t believe us when we say that anyway, it’s so frustrating because believe me, when I’m telling you, I’m fine without screaming. 

Julia: So you bring up a couple of really good points. One the representation of sex in pop culture and how like, sometimes I watch shows where I’m just like, you know, I’m good not watching people have sex, because that looks awkward and not fun. Or, or just like, it’s just awkward. It’s just, the representation is so. Out there. And I know I have a lot of women, friends who are like, I don’t really have a whole lot of a sex drive and dah, dah, dah. And I feel like I’m failing and I’m just like 

Libby: Welcome to being 40. 

Julia: Yeah. And I’m just like, you’re not failing. It’s just your body. Like, we’re all made differently in terms of like protective the whole faking and everything. 

Libby: Yeah. 

Julia: You know, I feel like that’s a construct that we’ve been forced into to protect the ego because we’re just as women, the gender roles have always been, you know, you’re the nurture or you’re the, you know, well, the nurture is the caregiver or you have to, you’re a people pleaser. Like that’s the role that we’ve been fighting against for the last 50 years, but that’s the role that’s existed for millennia for us. Right. And so having to come out of that is so huge. And I think Nora Ephron opening the door to that, like there’s a Friends episode where they talk about were Chandler and Joey and Monica and Rachel are like talking about like, I don’t know if you remember this episode. I can’t remember what season it was, but they’re like, the girls are like, oh, there’s like seven things like points that you could touch to make this a really great thing. Yeah. And Chandler’s like seven, like she’s numbering. I’m like 1, 2, 3, and they’re not getting along. And then she’s like 4, 5, 6, 7.

Julia: Like, there’s more I could be doing. I had no idea. Yeah. And then there’s, um, another reference I wanted to bring up. So Outlander the first season, Sam Huegen’s character. And I think you say her name Katrina. I think it’s how you say her name. It’s Irish. It’s spelled with lots of other syllables. There are lots of other letters in there, so I’m not a hundred percent sure. Their characters on the show, like he asks her, he’s a virgin on the night they get married. She’s not because she’s a time traveler was married previously. He asks her after their wedding night. And he’s like, was it good for you too? And she was like, uh, not really. 

Libby: Yeah.

Julia: But they created this scene where he was like, okay, explain it to me. So they had this relationship where they could have that conversation in a healthy way. So then, and then now every episode after that, they’re clearly enjoying each other’s say they figured it out and he didn’t have, uh, you know, he wasn’t angry about it. He didn’t, his ego wasn’t killed because of it. He was very receptive to her saying like, no, that wasn’t great. And like, let’s figure it out. And I just, I love that. Finally, someone was like, cause you know, on TV we see a lot. We see like the guy getting pissed off because it’s like, 

Libby: That’s what really happened? I mean, like that scene sounds amazing. And I feel like that would be him. That would be awesome. Is what happens in real life.

Julia: Yeah. 

Libby: I think it’s, I appreciate that. It’s put out there to the world, hopefully to show men, like you don’t have to get mad about it, you know. 

Julia: It’s okay to not know how to do something. 

Libby: Yeah. Also, I mean, oh my God, sex, that’s a whole other, like, forget it, you know, like 18 different women have 18 different ways that they like to be touched. So like of course the guy’s not going to be no, but like, you’re, you’re also not going to know if we don’t talk about it. And if I don’t tell you, I actually don’t like that. I really like that. But the hard part is like, you know, I understand the whole protection of the male ego only because it can be really scary to conf you know, I’ve had screwed up dating situations where I tried to be like, I mean, in the gentle, you know, you have to use the right tone and pick the right time to just even bring it up, you know?

Libby: And they get like so mad and it was like, I don’t feel safe in this situation, this isn’t going to work for me. Cause if I can’t tell you, I like this, instead of this that’s really problematic. But the other thing I was thinking of is, you know, with Harry Met Sally with the orgasm scene, like, cause you were talking about like all these different sex scenes on TV and stuff.

Libby: And I feel like even now with all the like saturation, I don’t know if there are a ton of orgasm scenes out there, like they’ll, there’s like a sex scene where, you know, it’s totally not real. And it’s like, they’re up against a wall. It’s like, yeah, right. That 

Julia: you’re like seven inches is shorter than that guy.

Libby: Right. 

Julia: How does that work.

Libby: It’s just it. I mean, I wish it worked cause it seems cool, but it doesn’t. But I feel like I can’t even think of like, what’s another scene where they sort of do like a full orgasm scene. That’s not like, you know, she kind of moans a little elevated for like two seconds, you know? Like, like Sally is like full, full point where like you’re uncomfortable watching a little bit.

Libby: It’s kind of like, you’re like, what’s going on. This is very intense. I feel weird. Right. So that doesn’t happen a lot. So the fact that this, you know, happened in the eighties and. Yeah, like that’s monumental kind of, and it’s, I think really a big deal to do a scene like that. And the fact that it’s still not really happening all that much. What does that mean? 

Julia: Or is it a censorship thing? I don’t know like that. 

Libby: Or is that just like, yeah, I don’t, maybe, maybe it is. 

Julia: Later in the movie when they finally do actually have sex with each other, we don’t see anything. Right. Like we just see them sort of making out and then we see. The after and after Harry’s freaking it was terrible.

Libby: Yeah. Did the look on his face? 

Julia: It’s just like deer in headlights, like yeah. Yeah. Well, that’s great. 

Libby: So I want to leave. I want to leave right now when can I leave? 

Julia: Yeah. I actually really liked the way that they did that too. In the sense of like, you see her sort of do this performative thing and, you know, at Katz Diner and then, and then later on you don’t see it at all. I think, I don’t know. I really appreciate sort of the discretion there. And again, I really don’t care about like whether or not there’s ton of tons of sex on, um, on screen. That’s not an issue for me, but I think that when you are telling a story, I need to know what’s the point of the nudity and like the sex. Like I hate it. Pointless, like you just threw tits in there to throw tits in there. Like that’s stupid to me. 

Libby: Totally. I love the new, well, the Star Trek series with Chris Pine, who is my husband. 

Julia: He’s beautiful 

Libby: But it was the I’m so bad. I love the first, the first part of that series, but it was the second or the third one. And there’s an actress with blonde hair in it. And she’s totally lovely. And I feel kind of bad for her as an actress almost because it’s like her role. Is like, so kind of pointless and there’s a scene where he catches her like changing or something. So she’s like in her pants, I think in her bra but like no top on. And it is so obvious that she’s just, they put her there for like the skin and the whatever, and she’s beautiful. And like, that’s it. And it’s just, it kind of sucks for her. Cause it’s like, that’s the role? You know, it’s better than nothing, but it’s also like, oh God, it’s so obvious why they put her in here.

Libby: So yeah, that’s just annoying in general. 

Julia: So same show Outlander that I referenced earlier, they go back in time to the first seasons in 1745. Um, so there’s a lot of nudity in it. So, and then, um, you know, then I do the like whole was there a lot of nudity in 1745? That kind of stuff and 

Libby: They were pretty covered up. 

Julia: Right. So there’s, so when it’s historical fiction, can I fall down that rabbit hole. Like I said, I’m not a fan of you just through. Nudity in there for the sake of nudity. And I think that’s stupid because sex sells. Yeah. But it sells more when it’s done right. Like if you do it in a way that, like, When Harry Met Sally, where they have this faking orgasm scene, and then later on, they are intimate, but you don’t get the full view of the intimacy. I think that’s way more powerful than being like here’s everybody naked. 

Libby: Yeah. And that scene wasn’t even about the, the actual one. They had sex that scene wasn’t even about them having sex. Like it was, but like as much as like the awkwardness after and how he kind of treated her like crap. Yeah. Yeah. After the fact.

Julia: Which I also think was a good move, because again, presently, we don’t necessarily see a lot of that. We’ll see. Days after where the girls like freaking out like, oh, this happened and I’m talking to my girlfriends about it.

Libby: Ghosting sucks Anybody who ghosts don’t do it. Just say, I’m sorry, it’s not, you’re great. But you know, what I ghosting is stupid. It’s kind of my little, yeah. 

Julia: It’s kind of like 

Libby: it’s cowardly 

Julia: and, and like, so for me, I’m very forgetful to respond to people, but I always respond, but in ghosting is like, even if it’s two weeks later, I’m very sorry. Um, but ghosting is like a different kind of like. 

Libby: Mental torture. 

Julia: Yeah. Because then it’s like, I need to know like did something I do. Was it something, was it me or was it you? Cause if it was me, I would like to know what, because that may not, that may be thing that irritates you, but it might not be a thing that irritates the next person. I don’t know. 

Libby: Yeah. Yeah. 

Julia: Cause what else made that really great too is because he had showed his cards earlier to her about how he’ll make something up about needing to leave the next day. 

Libby: Yeah. And she thought she would be the exception because they had laid such a foundation and. No, he did that gross thing.

Julia: I do appreciate though, that he didn’t specifically lie to her about why he had to leave. They both had to go to work, which. 

Libby: He slept. I mean, he slept the night. Oh, I remembered. I was going to say, yeah, he stayed the night and just, he just, wasn’t nice though. Like given it’s one thing, if you just met and you’re a little bit like got to go. Okay. You know, but like they were like friends for years and you’re like, got to go. That’s weird. I remember though the, the, um, that scene in Reality Bites, they do it really well where after they sleep together, it’s almost the same kind of plot line. They were friends for years. And then when Ethan Hawke like gets up all weird and he’s like, and she’s just like, so that’s it. And it’s this totally terrible. Like after sex, you know, scene the morning after where he just like bails but it’s like almost the exact same vibe. 

Julia: Reality bites is a great movie. I completely forgot about. It’s so good. Yeah. 

Libby: Put that on your list. 

Julia: Seriously. Cause young Ethan Hawke and Wynona Rider right?

Libby: Yeah. And Ben Stiller and Steve Vaughn, Steven is like kind of my favorite part of the whole movie. 

Julia: Like, gosh, it’s been a while since I’ve seen. Reality Bites. You know, Wynona Rider in the the nineties was just so great. Like her list. 

Libby: She like is the nineties. 

Julia: She is the nineties. Like How to Make an American Quilt, Reality Bites, Little Women, obviously, 

Libby: Did she do Edward Scissorhands or was that eighties? 

Julia: No Edwards. I don’t think that was it. I was like maybe early ’90s 

Libby: I feel like maybes. 

Julia: Um, now I have to look. Yeah, look it up. Oh, 

Libby: that movie they were together for years. 

Julia: Who didn’t she date though? I kind of envy her dating roster. She’s like, she’s like, oh, 1990s, specifically 1990. 

Libby: Okay. And beetle now Beetle Juice was eighties, but yeah. 

Julia: Yeah, but still, I mean, she’s just a nineties. Yeah. 

Libby: And Reality Bites is kind of like the thing. Yeah. 

Julia: Yes. So good. There was another one that she was, she. I don’t know. They’re just nineties movies in general. It’s just the storytelling. Just kind of unleashed in a different way, which, you know, like it was like, it was like all the kids who were born in the late sixties, early seventies who got in were just like, this is what we’re doing now.

Libby: Yeah. Yeah. I like bounce back and forth between eighties and nineties. Cause like, it’s like, I was a child in the eighties, but I had an older sister who was a teenager. So she passed down all of her pop culture, everything to me. And I absorbed it like a sponge because I like worshiped her. But then I was like a teenager in the nineties. So to me it’s like, that’s my identity. I claim the nineties for myself, you know? So I flipped. Back and forth between which I love more, but I just love both. We’ll just say that. 

Julia: Yeah. I agree. For the Altanic magazine a few years ago, Megan Garber dissected the scene where Harry introduces the concept of low maintenance to Sally. For those of you who haven’t seen the film, I don’t know why you haven’t, but for those of you who have you’ll recognize the description of the scene, it’s a split screen and they’re watching Casablanca together. Sally’s in our home, Harry’s in his home, they’re on the phone. Harry comments that Ingrid Bergman is a low maintenance woman, which of course sparks Sally’s interest because what does that even mean? And the discussion of high and low maintenance commences.

Julia: Garber highlights yet another cultural impact of this film. When she writes, “According to the Random House, historical dictionary of American slang, it was When Harry Met Sally that popularized the term high-maintenance in American culture. And there it has remained. It’s use climbing steadily over the past 30 years and assessment, that is also a review. High maintenance is one of those breezy truisms that is so common. It barely registers as an insult, but the term today does precisely what it did 30 years ago, as backlash brewed against the women’s movement.

Julia: It serves as an indictment of women who want. It neatly captures the absurdity of the culture that is in one breath, demands, women do everything they can to “maintain themselves” and in the next mocks them for making the effort.” So that article is titled The Quiet Cruelty of When Harry Met Sally. And I think I might agree that the paradox of being a woman who knows what she wants and yet mocked for being a strong and confident is never ending. The part I really struggled with in this commentary though, is that Nora Ephron herself was a pioneer in so many ways. And for her to create this narrative, is it, uh, so like my mind is like, is it a product of the era or does she truly believe that these two categories exist and was just using Billy Crystal as the catalyst to propel this concept?

Julia: So with that said for this movie to be repeatedly deemed the best romcom of all time, is it fair to challenge that status and criticize the introduction of these two types of women, high maintenance and low maintenance? 

Libby: You know, the question about Nora Ephron and where she was coming from, I was stumped on that and I’m still stumped. I’m not sure what I think my first thought is like, well, even pioneers are not perfect. So she might’ve, it might’ve been an oversight. Um, I also, you know, think about that other book that she wrote. Did you read the neck? Like, I hate my nose. 

Julia: Sorry About My Neck. 

Libby: Yeah. You know, to me that’s like, I mean, I don’t, like, I personally feel like that was like working for her at that time. Like bringing out all these, like, yes, this is what, what happens to our neck when we turn 40 and it’s kind of gross, like that’s revolutionary, but like right now I actually don’t feel like that narrative is all that helpful because I’m much more like, well, how can I find a way to think this is beautiful?

Libby: You know, like going a little bit for it. So it’s like, she is just a woman, even though she’s a pioneer, maybe this was an oversight on her part. I don’t really know. Cause she’s also really smart and it’s kind of hard to believe that she did, you know, that. Missed that, but I don’t know what I think in terms of where she’s coming from.

Libby: I totally think it’s fair to criticize. 

Julia: Yes. Especially cause you know, I, I went through the whole, well, did she just do it for laughs? Was it just a comedy thing? Because she knew it was going to be funny without realizing that it would become a thing because that happens too, because she’s, you know, for people who live, who are listening, who don’t know necessarily Nora Ephron’s story, She used to work for a magazine that wouldn’t let women write in the early seventies. And so she was basically like, fuck this and left and found a magazine, went to work for a magazine that would give her by-lines. And if, for, if anybody’s curious, there’s a book called the Good Girls Revolt and then an Amazon prime series, original, that only ran for one season that specifically touches on that era and they reference Nora Ephron in the show. And I believe she’s referenced in the book too. I have the book I’m going to read it. And PS, we will be discussing it on this podcast in a few weeks with another guest. Um, but the point is, is, you know, she’s, she. She like basically fought the man so she could have the career she has. Yeah. Or had rather may she rest in peace 

Libby: well, the other weird thing is, and I’m going to like full disclosure till hashtag ignorant. Totally being honest here. So I, this, it did not occur to me to even mind the high maintenance, low maintenance scene until you brought top. Yeah. Like not now in this moment, but when you, you know, when we discussed this earlier, I was like, and then I started, I was like, that’s fucked up. You know, like I just like totally got super fired up. But in my defense, I will say, I do think that is a part of number one, it’s so embedded in our culture. 

Julia: Right? 

Libby: It’s toll. I totally missed it. Also. This is a movie I have been watching since my youth, well, before I thought to even be angry about 

Julia: right.

Libby: Anything in our system, you know, I was, and honestly, just my personal story, I would say it’s only been since 2017 where it even occurred to me to start getting mad at these kinds of things. And that was a turning point in my life. I refer to it as when the goddess arrived and it changed my dating life because I stopped putting men on a pedestal, but I didn’t even realize I was putting a man on a pedestal my whole life. And it was just this crazy thing. So I feel like it’s so natural for so many of us as females to just like take it and be like, yeah, ha ha. I mean, I thought this was funny. Like I was always quoting the scene and. And to really break it down. I’m like, oh my God, I can’t, I can’t believe I missed that. You know, as a woman and even rewatching as a person in a relationship, probably the last time I watched it was when I was single. It’s so crazy when you watch something, when you’re sing- the movies that I latch onto when I was single and took for truth, and then you like have the relationship, then you rewatched a movie. You’re like, this is fucked up.

Libby: Like, why did I think this was a good thing here? So to watch it again, I found myself being so much more protective of Sally in all these scenes and being like with Harry, I was like, he’s kind of a jerk. Like the first half of this half of the movie is kind of a jerk. And then he, you know, grows up basically matures and I think becomes like worthy of her, but yeah, like totally lost on it. Like didn’t even know. Yeah.

Julia: You bring up a good point though, because we’ve basically been watching this movie, our whole lives, right? Like the concepts and everything about it have existed forever as far as we’re concerned. So it would be interesting to find somebody who was maybe similarly aged as Sally was in the movie at the time. And for them to sort of be like pre When Harry Met Sally high-maintenance low maintenance and post, because like you I’m like, yeah. High maintenance, low maintenance. That totally is a thing. Right? Like that’s totally a thing. And then as I got older and became more particular about certain things, because now I’m getting more confident in who I am and what I want and what I don’t want.

Julia: And just being more assertive, people would throw things out like, oh, you’re so high maintenance. No, just don’t really want this in my life. You know? Yeah. And it’s like, it’s not high maintenance because you don’t have to deal with whatever aftermath. Right. Her ordering bit I would like it on this side. And if you don’t have it, I’d like it, blah, blah, blah, girl. I can do that shit for days because I have food allergies. So it’s like, cool. 

Libby: You’re taking care of yourself. 

Julia: You can sit there and think I’m high maintenance all you want, because I said, I can’t have, or I don’t want, and all these things, but you don’t have to live with me after the fact, if I’ve eaten it. So shut up with your high-maintenance. Yeah. 

Libby: And honestly, even if you didn’t have food allergies, you have every right to be like, I want it this way, but, well, and the other thing is, you know, you, this class, you throw it back. If this was a guy, well, if it was a guy behaving this way, you know, he’s confident or he’s, he knows what he wants, whatever. And we’re like these, you know, we’re just painted. I mean, again, Thought Sally was an annoying, you know, I even went back in my notes cause I was writing the word like annoying. And I was like, look at me, I’m doing it. Like I’m actually demonizing her just for these little personality quirks, which by the way I personally have and display all of the time, you know, but it’s also like, yeah, but I’m also ashamed of them and half of my own, you know, annoyingness or when I’m being, you know, it’s something that I have that I think we all, as women have to like fight through it and be like, am I being a biotch here?

Libby: Or am I, is this okay? You know, like, because nobody’s telling us. It’s okay. You’re you’re not a terrible woman, if you nobody’s telling us that if we tell each other, you know, which also doesn’t happen that often. 

Julia: Right. 

Libby: So, yeah, it’s kind of embarrassing, but 

Julia: It’s part of that representation, right? Like I was having a conversation with my friend the other day. I was like, I struggle sometimes with the representation of single moms on TV or just in relationships in general, because it’s not always my story because there’s so many types of single parenting that can exist one. Two, like my relationship journey hasn’t been the same. I know so many women who have an infant and then in a year or two marry somebody else and then start a whole new family. I couldn’t. I can’t wrap my head around that because I don’t know my infant, you know, so getting to know my infant and my child before developing a new relationship it just sounds like a lot of work to me to be like, I need to get to know this dependent child and this human male, like this grown male, like, I don’t know how women do both.

Julia: And we see so much of that on, on it represented in pop culture, that type of narrative that I’m just like, I would like to see some relationships that look like maybe the relationships I’ve had and the journey that I’ve had would be really nice to see, because it’s not the same. There was a show on Showtime for wild called SMILF single mom, I’d like to whatever. And she was, she was such a shit show that it, like, I watched it because I thought it actually was a pretty good show. But when she was trying to do single momming stuff, it was such a shit show that it was just like, I struggle with this because I was 22 with a two year old and yeah, yeah.

Julia: I was a shit show, but I wasn’t that shit-show like, it was very well put together. My presentation was very well put together behind the scenes. It was a shit show. I don’t know. 

Libby: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I mean, I never saw the show, but you definitely don’t want to. And when you say shit show, I’m not sure are you saying like, she was just kind of neglectful. 

Julia: Couldn’t manage her life. There was this part where she, so she and her child shared a bed and this to me was like, shocking because that’s just not, this is not my, not her sharing the bed with her child. That’s not shocking because you know, co-sleeping is the thing, like, I, like, I’m not, I’m not anti co-sleeping, but this particular scene, her child’s asleep in bed. She calls a booty call friend. He comes over and they proceed to have intimacies with the sleeping child next to her in bed. And I’m sitting there jaw dropped and I’m like, is this normal? Like, do people do that? Because our representation in pop culture is women getting stuck, you know, bristled and like, no, don’t touch me. Our child’s in the bed. We can’t do this. They’re in the room. Dah, dah, dah. Um, so seeing that scene, I was like, do I need to. Do I need to think about what my, my, uh, like what kind of brain things do I need to think about because of the scene, because the scene makes me very uncomfortable. So then it just kind of turned into this whole, like, is this, are people doing this?

Libby: Like, is this it’s safe to say that it’s not normal, but maybe it is. But I mean, the other tricky part about, you know, when you’re talking about the culture of, you know, these single moms who find somebody shortly after, like it’s also playing into this other, this other like fucked up ideal or whatever, that, that the culture puts on us, which is like, you pretty much can’t really manage without a man or you need to be saved by a man. So it’s like, you’re a single mom. You’re struggling. You have the kid, you, you know, don’t go longer than two years without snagging a man, because otherwise you’re just flailing. You’re just floating. You’re just waiting and, you know, whatever, there’s a lot of complexity there and, and in some ways, yeah, it might be really helpful to have like a male partner helping out.

Libby: But if it’s not the right thing and you’re not ready for it, then it’s worse, but it’s still, you have the added pressure of feeling like you’re, I dunno, inadequate or something. If you don’t have this like male person coming in to like save you from your life. 

Julia: Right. Cinderella complex, right? 

Libby: Yeah. It’s not fair or fun. 

Julia: No, 100%. Totally. And I think what is, so to tie it back to When Harry Met Sally, Sally totally knows who she is, what she wants, what she doesn’t want. And so, again, back to your point. Yeah. Harry grows so much that he’s finally worthy of her in the end and not up to her. He’s caught up to her. And I think that for me is another reason why this movie is one that I rewatch all the time, because she is not backing down in who she is and she’s forcing him. She’s not really forcing him, but he’s realizing like, oh, I love this woman. If I want to be able to be with her, I have to like grow and evolve as a human.

Julia: And I’m not saying that that plays into the whole, like, you can change the bad boy to be your boyfriend because that’s a narrative that needs to stop. But I think it’s a natural, healthy demonstration of like, they’ve been friends for 12 years and it took him 12 years to, to grow. Do I think it should take men that long to grow? No. Is it fair that we have to assume that men develop slowly and less quickly than women? No, but at the same time, I feel like this is saying to men, Hey guys, it’s okay to grow. Like maybe.

Libby: I, you know, I love that. I never even thought of that, that, like, I, I did think about it when I was really thinking about my feelings about Sally’s character and where I was sort of off with the whole thing. But like, yes, she does not ever, you know, put him first or put him on a pedestal or put herself down. She’s actually through a lot of the movies she’s defending herself. Like, I love that one scene. It’s so amazing. What we’re, uh, they’re walking through central park of the beautiful orange leaves and he says something screwed up, like, you know, Um, I think I wrote it down. He says something about, you know, I really didn’t like you that much when I, she was like, I didn’t like you. And he’s like, nah, still hot and she was like, you know, I hate that kind of remark. It sounds like a compliment, but really it’s an insult. And she was like, I just didn’t want to sleep with you. And you had to write it off as a character flaw rather than deal with the fact that it might have something to do with you back down and was like, what’s the statute of limitations on an apologies, which was also so romantic.

Libby: Cause he was just like, yeah, that was fucked up. I apologize. And then their friendship that’s literally when their friendship began. So it’s like, he sort of, she presented herself as like, no, I was not wrong here. Cause I didn’t want to like sleep with you after meeting you for eight hours, you know? And he was like, Hm, yeah. Okay. Respect. And she was like, okay, well then we can be friends now. Like that is so goddess level awesome and it’s just so funny because this was such an old movie. I don’t think we see a lot of that, even now, at least not in romcoms. 

Julia: No, romcoms have very very much come back to that trope of like I’m whatever. And I’m sad cause I don’t have a man or a partner and yeah, sure. I’m fucking lonely like I can acknowledge that it’s fucking lonely. My child is practically grown. So he’s like out with his friends and I’m over here. Like, what am I going to do with my life? Maybe I’ll do the dishes now, but at the same time, like it’s not, you know, Finding a partner. Isn’t, isn’t informing my decisions on what I should be doing with my life.

Libby: I know, but that’s quite, it’s so confused. That’s why the pop culture, if you are pop culture, like geeks like us, where it’s such a huge part of not only our lives, but almost like the way we think and like are programmed. It’s like, it’s so hard because like during that single bit, I mean, my, I still back, my single period, sometimes I’ll start, I’ll get emotional thinking about how precious that whole journey and time was. And I just feel like, yes, but like we do feel lonely and we do feel like we want a man to come help us. Wouldn’t it be nice. There’s a tornado warning outside right now. It would be nice if a guy was here with me, cause I’m kind of scared right now, you know? And it’s like, so it’s like the romcom stuff like plays into like the reality of our feelings, but it takes it to like that next level of like, well, you’re pretty much doomed unless you meet like John Cusack coffee, shop brown. Like if that’s not happening for you, then you know, something’s wrong and it’s not true, but it feels true. 

Julia: And the other message that I feel like is re re um, reaffirmed time and time again, which makes rebel Wilson’s romcom so revolutionary, and it shouldn’t be revolutionary it should just be normal. 

Libby: Yeah. 

Julia: You have to be. Fit, thin, quaffed, all these things. And it’s like even the, even the nerdy girls are still pretty much featherweight and you’re just holding to like over here, like closer, you’re telling me that like girls with a little curve or like a little weight aren’t going to, and that’s what makes Jennifer Aniston’s movies. So Jennifer Aniston. Jennifer Lopez helped me. Um, because you know, she’s, she’s not stick thin and she’s, you know, still kind of having these meet cute, meet, cute romcom situations, but all of her leading men had been like white guys. So like give her a romcom with a leading man. That’s like maybe also not white.

Libby: They really need to like redo casting, I guess, moving forward. You know, if, I mean, I don’t even know. I have a Fil, a friend who has like a PhD in cinema studies and he had pointed out one time that they don’t make rom-coms anymore. Really? And I’ll say a moneymakers. Yeah. Which I don’t understand that, but let’s say they started up again. You know, it would be so amazing to just recast different races, different sizes, different everything. Cause it’s also just getting kind of boring. 

Julia: Yeah. And I’m not opposed to like interracial relationships. That’s not what I was saying with my statement of a Jennif- jennifer Anniston, Jennifer Aniston. I did it again.

Julia: Lopez and comes always being a leading white male. It’s just, there are lots of beautiful men in the world who, especially in Hollywood. So give those actors a chance to, to show us that, you know, we can pine after. 

Libby: Totally women love all kinds of beautiful. 

Julia: There is no restriction like a couple of months ago. We, my friend and I did an episode, just a full on appreciation for Malcolm, Jamal Warner. Like that was the whole point of it. 

Libby: Yes. 

Julia: Because he’s beautiful. Beautiful. It’s just give us more of that. But you know, it’s, it’s like that, um, Narrative of like, you can only fall in love with a white guy in a romcom like that, to me, I know that’s not directly what they’re doing. It’s probably just a whole lot of ignorance happening, but like, no, one’s seeing it from the other side. Like, no, one’s coming up and saying like, Hey, maybe we shouldn’t always just cast. Like, are, are there any romcoms with a non-white guy that you can think of? I’m trying to think. 

Julia: So Jumping the Broom is, comes to mind, but again, it was not a super big flick. Like not a lot of people know about it, Paula Patton’s is in it. Um, and so, you know, it’s a, it is a predominantly Black cast, but it’s not, it doesn’t get a huge, it doesn’t have this same level of like recognition that when you stay in like every movie alley or, you know, any other like white leading romcom.

Libby: Yeah. 

Julia: But there’s, there’s see now I’m trying to, it’s been so long since I’ve seen love and basketball that I can’t remember if it’s a romcom or if it was like, cause I remember feeling like sadness through the movie because there is, so I need to rewatch it and be like this and the other one that’s low level, but again, white male lead something, um, bar some not something physical, Something New. It was is really cute. But again, it’s like a leading, you know, the, the lead actresses Black, but the main guy is white. She falls in love with, um, so I can’t like, so this is terribly not, there’s really not jumping in the rooms. The only one that comes to mind, that’s also because I’ve watched that movie so much.

Julia: And then when they put it on Netflix, I was like, thank you, Netflix. This is going background. 

Libby: Amazing. 

Julia: But more recently. And then two in the grand scheme of the conversation, like it feels more obscure once you do kind of find one that doesn’t have a leading lady and fella who are both white. 

Libby: Yeah. It needs to be, it’s just a, it needs to be normalized in order and it’s just not, and that’s a problem.

Julia: Cause you know, if Michael B. Jordan did a romcom, he probably won’t because his, you know, he’s got a pretty stellar resume and it doesn’t include romcoms. I would be here for that. The way he looks at leading ladies in movies, just like he is so good at looking like he’s really in love with those women. I need that in a romcom. I

Libby: feel like you’re not the only one too. So it’s like, how, how are these not been made yet? Listen to us. Movie people, Hollywood listen up famous people, filmmakers, producers, whoever you are, whoever you are. We got a list of actors. We want to see in these quirky romcoms, just call me. Well, don’t call me, but maybe Elba. He’s not too old right now. 

Julia: I don’t care that make for people over 40, make him be like. 

Libby: Yes, he’s the one that I just, as you were talking, I was like Idris Elba. That would be. Super watchable. 

Julia: So hot. His episodes of the office are some of my favorite ones because he’s just in a, like in a button, down with the tie and the pants I’m like, yeah.

Libby: And, um, and Molly’s Game. Have you Molly’s Game? Okay. You need to see Mo like talk about female forward power. Oh my God. It’s with, um, Jessica Chastain. And it’s like a real story about the gambling, whatever, but he’s like her lawyer and he’s, he’s all sexy as a lawyer. You need to see it. 

Julia: I love this route all down because it’s very important. Romcoms, aren’t dead. There’s an audience for it. It’s just not in the same way as like, you know, big blockbuster thrills. Free Guy actually ended up being a romcom, the new Ryan Reynolds movie. 

Libby: Really? 

Julia: Yeah. Which I think 

Libby: I have weird feelings about him. 

Julia: Really. 

Libby: I don’t know if I’ll, I don’t know if I should get it. I mean, I don’t debate his gorgeousness. I mean, it’s beautiful. He might be the most gorgeous, but like.

Julia: He’s kind of the king of romcoms of the early aughts. 

Libby: I know I’m going to be such a jerk. I do like the one with him and with Isla Fisher. 

Julia: Oh, Definitely Maybe, 

Libby: I don’t remember what it’s called. Yeah, because he, anyway, but I don’t know my, my twin and I like go back and forth about this. Cause we both have this thing about him that we don’t really like, like it’s a little bit like, yeah, he’s funny. But like, he’s almost trying too hard to be funny. And the accessible guy, when really like he’s Ryan Reynolds, there’s nothing accessible about. Yeah. 

Julia: Right. And Blake Lively. 

Libby: Like, yeah. It’s like you don’t, you need something like a scar on your face or something for me to believe that you’re like relatable. Cause I don’t think you’re like that guy next door. Like I just like don’t buy that and I really like him in serious roles. He was in that really scary movie called Life. I think, where you’re up in space and the weird aliens, like attack, whatever he was, it was a serious role. And I thought he was really good at that. So that’s my little thing about Ryan Reynolds, but okay. So he’s in a romcom. Yeah. 

Julia: Free Guy which doesn’t present as a romcom. And so it’s, you get to, and I’m probably just ruined it, but when you get to the end of it and they have like, started doing the resolution, you’re like, oh shit, this is a romcom like, thank you.

Libby: That’s kind of cool. 

Julia: And I think it’s a Testament to the fact that they kind of had to put it in there to make it yeah. Like you had to repackage what a romcom could be. 

Libby: Yeah. 

Julia: Because you think it’s this, you know, movie about like this guy who’s stuck in a video game and he’s trying to like save the world. Yes. And there are characters that are in love and this whole world that’s been created. Is that actually really a love story, like a tribute to the role that he loves. Not Ryan Reynolds, character himself, Ryan Reynolds character is a manifestation avatar that created him. And so it just ended up being just, oh, so good. And Chris Evans makes it, um, 

Libby: oh my God. He’s my fave. 

Julia: Oh. 

Libby: If you had to decide between Chris Evans and Chris Pine…

Julia: I’m going America’s ass. Chris Evans. 

Libby: Okay. I’m going to go for Pine. Cause I like a little bit of dark edge. I feel like that’s a little dark. 

Julia: I, I feel like that is fair and that means that we can stay friends.

Libby: You can have, yeah, I’ll take mine. You have yours. We’ll all go out. It’ll be fun. 

Julia: Yeah. I am very publicly stated multiple times on this show that I am like a Chris Evans crush girl and it’s probably okay. He’s a grown ass man 

Libby: It’s fine he’ll be fine. It’s fine. 

Julia: He’s handsome. 

Libby: He’s unbelievable. And I think he’s truly a nice person.

Julia: I agree. And he started that, um, he co founded that, uh, it’s called A Starting Point with, I forget the other guy’s name and it basically just breaks down the American politics system. And like they talk about yeah. 

Libby: He’s super political. 

Julia: And I’m just like, I love that you saw a need, because he went on this journey of trying. Cause when I was watching him talk about why he started it, he explained that when he went on the journey of trying to figure out certain things to make an informed decision, it was really hard. So he created this platform that’s bipartisan that people could go to and like learn more about whatever the issues are. And I was like, okay, stop being so sec, like that’s sexy as hell. 

Libby: There has to be something wrong with it. 

Julia: Right. Like.

Libby: I’m sure there is. 

Julia: He’s all his, I don’t know. All of his girlfriends are now like happily ex-girlfriends now we’re happily partnered. 

Libby: Jenny Slate 

Julia: Just a baby and she’s so cute. And I thought they were so cute together and I

Libby: just wish they were together. 

Julia: Cause I love them together. 

Libby: Same, but I’m also like super jealous of her because I’m like, you like had that. 

Julia: Yeah. 

Libby: That’s amazing. 

Julia: And it was really cruel. The media and people were really fucking cruel to them because they kept commenting things about how they don’t look like they should be together. And it’s a weird pairing yeah. Punching above the weight and it’s just like, fuck you. Like, 

Libby: I also had like a major girl crush on her. I’m also. Super gorgeous. Like I totally get it, but yeah, it’s not, it was so it’s not nice. 

Julia: It makes me so upset. Like stop it. People you can’t control who you have affection for and are attracted to like, don’t do that. But our society does that and it’s just so awful. 

Libby: Yeah. 

Julia: Ugh. It breaks my heart. Okay. Anyway. Yeah. On another note, I don’t think anyone would argue against When Harry Met Sally being the pinnacle of a romantic comedy greatness. The dialogue is funny. The witty quips, the chemistry of the cast is amazing because you really truly believe that Meg Ryan and Carrie Fisher are best friends.

Julia: And then of course watching it last night, I’m thinking did Meg Ryan like, was she affected by Carrie Fisher’s death? Because I don’t remember everyone did this outpour and cry, but I can’t remember if Mike Ryan said anything. 

Libby: Yeah. Like maybe they weren’t actually friends in real life, but they were amazing in the movie.

Julia: So good together. Bruno Kirby and Harry. 

Libby: They are actually friends and Billy crystal, right. He was in City Slickers. All time favorite oh my God. I can’t even talk about that movie. I love it. I can’t even handle how much I love that movie, but 

Julia: I finally showed my child that movie because it was like, oh, let’s watch City Slickers. He’s like what? I’m like failing you as your mother needs to see that. 

Libby: Yeah. Did he like it or he like. 

Julia: He liked it. 

Libby: Yeah. But I think they’re friends in real life for years, right? 

Julia: Yeah. I think so. Because they did a fair amount of movies together, I believe, especially in the eighties and nineties. Yeah. But everything about this movie was totally top notch and it’s so easy to see why it was nominated for an Academy Award. And it actually did win the BAFTA for best original screenplay. I didn’t realize that until I started researching for, for us. Yeah. Libby. I’m just, I really enjoyed this conversation today or coming by. 

Libby: I did too. I had so much fun. I could talk about, oh my, I mean, I feel like there was so many offshoots we could have just done a whole other episode on, so yeah. There’s fantastic. 

Julia: So many different roads we could have gone down. 

Libby: Yeah. 

Julia: I chose relationships. 

Libby: Well, what else is there? I mean, honestly, that’s the juic- that’s the juiciest one. And that’s what I’m interested in. It’s just fun to talk about. So 

Julia: I agree. Yeah. Can you remind everyone where they can find you if they want to keep up with you?

Libby: Yes, absolutely. So you can follow me on Instagram at the goddess attainable. And I have a blog, which is the goddess attainable.com. That’s sort of my landing page for everything. Um, my podcast is called goddess attainable podcast. I’m kind of putting them up, putting myself everywhere. So I’m on apple, Spotify, iHeart, stitch Googling tune in. Um, but you can find all that on my website too. 

Julia: Goddess attainable. Perfect. Yeah. And as always, you can find the show. Pop Culture Makes Me Jealous on Instagram. Thanks for tuning in y’all until next time.

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